hart-bound-editing

Packaging & Marketing Tweaks: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 52

Tue, 30 Dec 2025 22:44:51 GMT

Marketing Tweaks: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript…

As promised, here are some recommended next steps and resources for once you've finished with the self-editing process!

First, I recommend working with an expert developmental editor who specializes in your genres. If you write fantasy, romance, or historical fiction, I hope you'll consider letting me help you make your good story great! If you want to read more about the developmental editing services I offer, you can find all the details here!

Someone around the dev edit stage, and certainly before trying to find beta readers, you'll need a good blurb! I offer professional blurbs written from reading the whole book as an optional add-on service, but if you want to write your own, the best resource I can recommend is Bryan Cohen's book How to Write a Sizzling Synopsis , available through Amazon here: https://a.co/d/eo6fRFm

After developmental editing and beta readers, you'll want to hire a copy editor. And, if needed or if you have the budget for it, a line editor before copy, and a proofreader after. Here are some of my favorites:
Isla Elrick: https://editingbyisla.carrd.co/

Alex Moyer of Alchemy Edit: https://www.alchemyedit.com/

Betsy Judkins of Maine Woods Editing: https://www.mainewoodsediting.com/

Just as a reminder, I recommend not using the same outside reader for more than one layer of outside critique. So, don’t use the same person for developmental and line edits, or beta reading and copy edits. You want to get the highest number of FRESH eyes as you can on your book through the pre-publishing process.

Lastly, if you want to go the self-publishing or Indie publishing route with your book, I can recommend no better resource or source of expertise than The Self Publishing Show with Mark Dawson and James Blatch! By all means take full advantage of their huge backlist of blogs and podcast episodes, and when you're ready to make the plunge, their Launchpad course is wonderful: https://www.learnselfpublishing.com/launchpad
The other self-publishing resource I like to recommend is David Gaughran's Starting from Zero course! His approach is friendly, knowledgable, and his lovely accent is definitely a plus. https://davidgaughran.com/

Happy editing, and best wishes for all that lies beyond!

Episode 51 Overview:

Packaging & Marketing Tweaks

“What small tweaks can I make in editing which can help my title, cover, and other marketing aspects and considerations for down the road?”

Happy Holidays!
For this final installment of this year-long self-editing series, join developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring middle grade fantasy author Agnes Wolfe as they walk through small, low-pressure edits that can help a story after publication.

In this Episode:

When do tackle tweaks for marketing
Embedding titles
Considering cover art in narrative descriptions
Where to draw the line between improvement and stalling
How to use your favorite lines
What comes after editing

Resources:

Hart Bound Developmental Editing
My Top Self-Publishing Resource Recommendation (no affiliation) - https://www.learnselfpublishing.com/launchpad
Agnes Wolfe - agneswolfeauthor.com
Great Blurb Guide: How to Write a Sizzling Synopsis - https://a.co/d/gqqRbyW
Dragonheart Academy - Dragonheartacademy.com

See you in February with more help for authors who want to make their good story great!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 52 Transcript:

Packaging & Marketing Tweaks

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 52, the very last episode of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We have covered an insane amount in this series so far, including last week's episode on consuming and processing and productively implementing feedback from outside readers. Today, we are going to finish out this series by talking about marketing and book packaging within the context of self-editing. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully have a handful of quick, easy, and simple things to tackle in some low-effort self-editing around improving your title, cover, and other factors in how well your book attracts potential readers on sales platforms. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my good friend and co-host, Agnes Wolff. Hello.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later next year, 2026, and also host and founder of Authors Alcove. I’m here today to tackle last-minute optional tweaking we can do to improve how our book launches into the world down the road. I just am thinking about how, a year ago, and it was a little bit more than a year ago where we had first decided to do this series, and I was thinking 52 weeks seemed like a really long time, and I cannot believe that we are on the very last episode.

Rebecca: It feels surreal.

Agnes: We worked so hard! Anyway, so let's get it started. I feel like we've been nearly done with self-editing for several weeks now, talking about feedback and all of that. Given that this is the last episode of this series, what exactly is that line when are we actually done with self-editing?

Rebecca: So, after the scope of this series, which is mostly up through the end of applying feedback from developmental and beta readers, you are probably—hopefully—still going go through a little bit of editing beyond that with a line editor, a copy editor, and or a proofreader. But that is solidly outside my scope, and pretty straightforward, so we're not going to touch on that a ton here. My only real suggestion for the last bits of that self-editing would be that you don't have to accept all suggestions that you get, you don't have to accept all potential changes or tweaks or whatever. But do make sure that if you're going to make the choice to reject any suggestions or rules to those levels of writing, that you do so intentionally and with research. Sometimes that'll be nothing, if you have a great editor that you just totally agree with. Some editors are just bad editors, so you'll have to make that call more often, or maybe find a different editor to work with. Essentially, to answer your question directly, you're done self-editing when you have gone through all of the feedback and notes and whatever else from your proofreader. Once you have applied those changes, once you’ve gotten all of those last typos and punctuation issues and missing words corrected from your proofreader, that is the very, very distinct line. After that, everything is formatting, covers, book packaging, blurbs, marketing stuff. You’re done self-editing when you're done implementing feedback from whatever last, granular edit you pay for, which might be copy and it might be a proofread.

Agnes: So, where are we assuming an author is in their process when this episode would be most applicable to them?

Rebecca: This episode is designed for folks who have finished applying all of the feedback from their beta readers and/or their developmental editor but probably haven't yet gone through line editing or copy editing.

Agnes: So, you've mentioned that what you wanted to cover in this one were some fun and optional things. Is that just because of the timing of this episode, with the end of the year, when lots of folks are busy and distracted? Or would these things have been the last things to cover, regardless of the timing of the year, or if writers are listening to this series at any random point in the future?

Rebecca: This is absolutely for any time someone runs into this. First of all, it's very important to always end on a good note. Any project is going to feel better in yourself and be remembered more fondly if the last thing you do on the project is at least a little bit fun. So, that's part of it. But also, kind of like I mentioned with the last episode, I don't remember if that was directly about that one or shadowing this one. Anyway, it can be very helpful to work on shifting gears out of the editing mindset and into more of the marketing mindset. So, I've tried to design the advice or optional tasks in this episode specifically to try to ease that transition from, oh, I'm editing my book, into more of, okay, I am preparing for marketing while still interacting with my manuscript, if that makes sense.

Agnes: So, before we dive in with specifics, is there a common theme or unifying topic we should be bearing in mind around today's topic?

Rebecca: This is essentially editing for marketing. And for sharing your story down the line. A lot of the editing that we've covered in this series is more for the sake of making the story better. For improving it, for coming across as more professional or more experienced, or just as a better storyteller. This week's topic is specifically all based around editing for marketing. And just a few things to keep an eye on as you're doing so to list for yourself, which will then, at some point, get looped back into that whole marketing thing.

Agnes: I am kind of excited to talk about some of the things that we're going to talk about. What are these last fun optional self-editing tasks or tips for us? And I already know that you are going to mention some that I've already been starting to dream up and think about already.

Rebecca: Excellent. So, number one is the title. If you haven't given serious thought to the title, now would be the opportunity. This is where you know your story the best. Because you have already done so many rounds on it but you're still sort of at the end of that process, you haven't had time of it being set aside for you to forget anything in there. So, this is that moment to really think about what title would be great, if you want to tweak it, if you want to try different options. And if and or when you picked a great title for your book, I personally suggest—this is not a rule, this is a fun suggestion—make sure that those words appear somewhere in your book. I didn't do that with my first couple of books. I now do it with my books. I just personally love it when I'm reading through a book and the title phrase appears just on a random page in chapter 38. So, if you want to play with that, now is a great time to just figure out, think through what scene could this come up in, in what context, who could say it? Is this a narration or dialogue? And just go sneak it in there, just for fun, just a little Easter egg game for your readers to play. Number two is your cover. Essentially, you should, at this point, have some sense for what covers are doing well or expected in your genre and your subgenre. So, know if that's going to be a person. If that's going to be a landscape, if that's going to be very scribal, if it's going to be objects like I've gone with for my Unlocked series. And whatever that is going to be, make sure that you have some good options for yourself in the book. So, if you know that having, let's say, lots of sort of magic-y, spirally, floral bits with a central object is what's on for your subgenre of romantasy. I'm clearly speaking from experience here. Then, you might want to go through, and if you have an object that is central to the story that is a good candidate for the cover, see if you can bring it up more, see if you can mention it more often, see if you can give it even more importance in a role in the story, and make sure you describe it in a way that is visually interesting and will catch attention and would look good on a cover. Same thing for characters, same thing for general kind of color scheme, whatever it is. If you can just go in and very subtly mention things throughout the story that will help that cover really feel tied into the story, bonus points. Number 3 on this is… I had a note written down that just says memes, but I don't think that's actually what I mean here. You want to have content marketing content. So, social media images is, I think, what I more meant to say there. Having lines pulled out, like I mentioned in one of the recent episodes. Going through just, if you really like a line, if you're particularly proud of a line, or you think it's really going to resonate with your readers, if it's particularly emotional or evocative or anything like that, go paste it into a list of favorite quotes from the book. Because, especially when you're doing your launch week, or however you want to launch, having images that are aesthetic to the cover, that promise a certain genre that will appeal to your ideal reader, that has these lines that are most likely to sort of pull the reader in, are great. Similarly, you can look at what's currently trending on social media in these ways. I've seen different things like, that moment when blah blah blah, and it's a little summary of one of the moments in a book, or you can use your tropes in similar setups like that on social media, usually on TikTok, things like that. So, this is a great moment, and can be very fun to go through and just pull all of those out. And then 4 on the list, aery much related to that is, assess your tropes. Make lists of your tropes. Go Google or otherwise look up lists of tropes in your genres, and go through, and if you see one that you're like, oh yeah, that counts, Write it down. Or, if you see one that you're like, oh, I almost did that! And all you would have to do is, you know, change a couple of sentences here and there to actually deliver that trope? Go do that. Readers shop by tropes, especially in the romance genres, and especially in romantic fantasy, so do that. Next on the list is a little bit less fun, but it's still necessary. Make a list of the trigger warnings that you could possibly add to the book. And again, look up a list and read through it, and if you see one that you're like, yep, I got that one, put it on your own personal list. It’s important to mention that you probably won't have to mention all of the trigger warnings for your book. There is a line where, you know what? I’m going to mention just the big ones, because people have phobias of everything on the planet. I’m sure there's somebody out there who has a phobia of clothing. You don't need to list that trigger warning in your book if you describe clothing at some point. But, having a list of, perhaps, the ones that you hit out of a top 100 most common? Not a bad idea. And again, doing that now, when you're sort of in this play space, is going to be better to deal with than when you're rushing to publish however many weeks or months down the road. Next on the list is, like I talked about, watching for those favorite lines or quotations, keep an eye out for character art moments, or scene art moments. If there's a moment in your story where you have an incredibly clear visual on it, and you think it could make a stunning picture for your Kickstarter, or your ARC team thank you gift package—make a note of that, maybe add a few little descriptions, just pay attention to where those moments are, and again, as fun, like you're collecting little candies, make a list of those. Very much related to that, keep an eye out for bonus scene opportunities probably beyond that lead magnet. So, if you have a solid lead magnet, be that a bonus epilogue, or a novella, a short story, flash fiction, whatever that is sort of related, while you're reading through the book for this point, or just thinking about it for these fun tasks, pay attention if there's, like I've mentioned in previous episodes, an episode from 1 POV where, as a bonus, just for fun, you could also offer the other POV on that same scene if they sign up to your mailing list, or if they follow you on social media, whatever the case may be. And, yeah, that's kind of my whole list here. You can collect things, collect thoughts. We’ve kind of already touched on it, but if you come up with more thoughts of, oh, I wanted to follow up on that in the next book, go write that down. Just all that kind of stuff.

Agnes: So, some of those that you mentioned don't really seem like they're optional. Wouldn't we need to do most of those anyway, at some point?

Rebecca: Yes and no. You can absolutely choose to just throw all of this stuff together once you are well and truly into publishing, launch, and marketing stages. But, doing it now can take stress off of that inevitably stressful week or month of your life, and the book’s life. But yeah, I think that a lot of this is optional. You don't have to have the title of the book in the story. And you don't have to have a cover that is centered around a very specific visual that you actually describe in the book. Essentially, you can kind of decide what is an instant optional for yourself. You don't have to have any character art for a book. I don't have any character art of any of my stories or characters. You don't have to have any bonus content or a lead magnet. And little things like quoting specific lines, or even editing lines in your book to be more quotable on a little infographic, absolutely optional. It’s very much up to you. I consider most of these things optional, but fun, and I do choose to do them. But I still, like I said, very much consider them truly optional.

Agnes: So, which of these things do you do yourself for your own writing?

Rebecca: I've talked about the cover, I've talked about the title being in there, at least in the recent books. Let’s see… like I said, I haven't done character art. I will at some point, but it just hasn't been a priority. I definitely pull out quotes as I'm reading through. In fact, I will start doing that in early rounds of editing, just because that makes my heart happy, and it's nice to go through if I'm having a bad day where I don't like the story, to just go read a little short list of my favorite lines and go, okay, I did okay, that was pretty good, actually. I very much do that for myself, and while I do have a lead magnet and have drafted bonus scenes, I've never done anything with them, which I would like to start doing more in coming books, where I actually do send them through the line editor and copy editor, proofreader, so that they are as polished as everything else, and then I can put them in the back of my books to get people signing up to the newsletter. Haven’t done that, I intend to do that at some point in the future.

Agnes: So, are any of these things aspects you watch for when editing for clients? Could you watch for them, or help improve them if someone asked you to?

Rebecca: Kind of? If I notice that someone does say the book title in the book, I will usually do a little note of, oh, I noticed where you used the title Just a little observation. I don't ever see covers for the books that I edit with very, very rare exceptions, because that's just a step that comes after dev by, usually, months. So, I don't really have feedback on that. Sometimes I will have clients ask, hey, I'm really stuck, I don't know what to title this book. If you have any suggestions after reading it, please let me know, and I am happy to provide ideas, especially if I know their genre and their subgenre, I can look at those templates for titles and give suggestions that would fit in their genre. Beyond that, it really kind of depends. For example, if I see a line in a book that I think would be fantastic on a graphic promo kind of thing. I will usually flag and just go, this is a great line. So, if someone uses me as their dev editor, and I flag one, you know, maybe consider sticking that on a meme, and running with that during your launch, just because you know that an outside reader particularly connected with that line, or thought particularly highly of it. That's all it really amounts to. But, absolutely, if a client wants me to keep an eye out for any of these aspects, especially if they're like, hey, is there a scene in here that I could scrap from the main book to tighten things up but would still be a good bonus scene? I would love to help keep an eye out for that. If you want me to keep an eye out for something, ask, and I will. I'm not too picky about that, and these are all good candidates for that if it just feels like something that you want done, or want to have a list of but don't really want to do yourself. And I do regularly, I will always tag any trigger warnings that I see that I didn't see the author tagging ahead of time, because I feel particularly invested in that particular topic.

Agnes: Okay, so I want to prepare you. This will be my very last question of the very last episode of our 52-week series, which means I've probably asked you five hundred and twenty questions now. So, this is the last one, are you ready?

Rebecca: Yes!

Agnes: Okay, alright, just can you remind us the steps that we need to take as we step away from self-editing, and if there's any resources that you would recommend us looking up, that would be awesome as well.

Rebecca: Absolutely. So, while I know that we have already technically covered the topic of getting outside feedback, I imagine that most of our listeners who are listening to this episode, either live or catching up on the series, haven’t done so yet, as keeping pace with this weekly podcast while that process actually takes weeks and weeks, isn't realistic. So, assuming that that's true for our listeners, the next step is probably to go find some beta readers, multiple, ideally, or a good developmental editor. And I will do my only shameless self-promotion in the whole series right here and say that a big part of why I spent the last year teaching writers how to self-edit was to help them get their books in great shape to get the most out of a paid structural edit. And, to hopefully give listeners a chance to get a feel for me and my personality, and if my approach to story revision might be a good fit for them. I do have dev edit slots open through the end of this year. Well, I guess this will be releasing right at the end of the year, so I have slots open going into 2026, and I hope that folks who are looking for the services that I offer will consider checking out hartboundediting.com, linked in the show notes, and at least considering me in their search for a quality editor that can really help their story reach their highest goals with it. Beyond that, and speaking specifically as to what to do after beta and dev and all of those have been applied, we’ve already covered this a little bit—this is where the two publishing paths truly diverge. For trad, or traditional publishing, the next step is to find an agent. I recommend querying many, as you are likely to get a lot of rejections, so expect that. Do some research, understand that a lot of people have to query 100 agents before they get picked up by any of them. This is a numbers game, don't expect to get accepted by the first agent you query. Do more research into that path. There are so many resources out there. They are not hard to find. Go educate yourself specifically on that path that you want to take. For indie, the next steps are things like cover art, a copy editor, formatting and… or, sorry, formatting for publishing, like I talked about in more depth, I think it was in the last episode. As for the best next resource I recommend, especially for indie, kind of exclusively for indie, is Mark Dawson and James Blatch's joint projects. This includes the self-publishing show podcast, which is incredibly valuable right back to the beginning, which started in, like, 2009. And their Learn Self-Publishing website, which includes a great blog that kind of covers the same things as the show. Specifically, and most especially, I highly recommend their self-publishing launchpad course, which used to be called Self-Publishing Formula 101, or SPF 101. I will absolutely link these in the show notes, and I think that that course is worth every penny, especially if you consume a decent chunk of their free content before diving in with the course. It covers everything. In fact, it covers a lot of the self-editing stuff that we've talked about here, but then also has a very heavy emphasis on formatting and, you know, finding copy editors and cover artists and marketing email newsletters, all of the kind of stuff that I'm still learning in my own series, so I will happily kind of hand you all off to them, because I think that they are really doing a great thing with their programs. Also, I suggest that you join their various Facebook groups. If you use that platform. And, specifically, that you use the in-group search function liberally. If you have any questions remotely related to the topic of self-publishing or indie publishing, it's almost certainly been asked in that group before and well answered, so search for some search terms, read through the answers people have already given. It is a very high-value resource, and happy to pass things along in that direction, especially for folks who, like me, want to indie publish or self-publish.

Agnes: And just to up my own personal plugin, I have been plugging in hers throughout the series, but the one thing I can say, if you go with Hart Bound Editing, is that she is very thorough, she knows story structure, she's going to point out a lot of things that you may not have thought of. You know, I said that there was a lot that I kind of already knew that she had pointed out, but there was a lot of things that she pointed out—some of them were really tiny, and some of them were a little bit bigger. And also, just having… like, she does a really good job of presenting it in such a way that you don't feel like a failure, and that, I think, is a huge part of it. And you know that she's going to give you very detailed, and I think that is, I think, one of the most important things about development to editors, you want them to be thorough. You don't want them to just be like, oh, well, you should change to this, this, and then have, like, you know, 2 or 3 pages of comments that you would have probably gotten from a beta reader anyway. So you can guarantee that she will do an excellent job of actually being thorough and not just doing a beta read for a development to edit. Anyway.

Rebecca: Thank you for saying so.

Agnes: Anyway, so this is the last time that you're going to do our closing as a joint podcast. So, thank you for being willing to answer all of my questions over the last 52 episodes, and I bet you there has been probably about five hundred and twenty questions I have asked you that you have been willingly able to answer. Thank you.

Rebecca: I've enjoyed every minute of it, and I really hope that this year-long self-editing series has been helpful to everyone following along with it. We are so grateful to everyone who has liked, subscribed, and otherwise followed along. If you know any other authors who are nearing the end of their first draft or struggling with revising or rewriting their novel, please send them our way. I would love to help more writers understand and finish the process of self-editing. Both Hart Bound editing and Author's Alcove will continue on after this joint series has ended, and I hope that you will all come along for the ride. I will continue providing as much in-depth advice as I can for fantasy, romance, and historical fiction writers looking to improve their craft. And I'm very excited to follow Agnes’s adventures, getting her delightful YA fantasy novel published next year, as well as her other endeavors, like Dragon Heart Academy. Thank you so much for everything, Agnes. This has been an amazing series to do with you.

Agnes: I agree, thank you. It has been so much fun, and this is the first time I can't say I will see you next week.

Rebecca: I will see you all again in the future, and I'm sure you and I will do joint podcasts at some point in the future as well.

Agnes: I believe so, thank you. Bye!

Rebecca: Bye!

Rebecca: Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more or visit my website, linked in the description, to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Consuming & Processing Feedback: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 51

Tue, 23 Dec 2025 23:00:00 GMT

Consuming & Processing Feedback: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 51

Very importantly, I recommend that people refresh the discussion in Episode 5: Your Non-Negotiables along with this episode! It is the single biggest tool you can use to make this late-stage part of the self-editing process so much easier for yourself.

And I want to take a moment to name some line editors, copy editors, and proofreaders you might consider for once you are ready to move on to that step beyond beta readers or a developmental editor, like me:
Isla Elrick: https://editingbyisla.carrd.co/

Alex Moyer of Alchemy Edit: https://www.alchemyedit.com/

Betsy Judkins of Maine Woods Editing: https://www.mainewoodsediting.com/

Laura Fortier: https://www.laurafortier.com/editing

Jeanne De Vita of Book Genie: https://www.book-genie.com/copyediting

In a strange twist of events, the editor I mentioned by name when recording the podcast episode had, unbenounced to me, shuttered their editing business before the episode's release date, so I apologize for any confusion there.

Happy editing!

Episode 51 Overview:

Consuming & Processing Feedback

"How can I better handle receiving and reading feedback on my manuscript, processing it, and applying the helpful parts in productive ways?"

This episode of the Story Savvy Series helps you master the writer mindset during edits and confidently begin turning feedback into edits that strengthen your story. Learn how to organize critique notes, manage emotional responses, and apply essential feedback implementation tips without getting overwhelmed. Whether you're preparing for editorial review , navigating editing after beta feedback , or tackling big self-revisions, this episode prepares you to approach feedback with a clear mind and grounded focus.

Join developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell [hartboundediting.com] and aspiring middle grade fantasy author Agnes Wolfe [agneswolfeauthor.com] as they walk through the tools, habits, and questions to ask yourself when feedback arrives. From reviewing notes with a calmer perspective to choosing which edits to implement first, this discussion helps you apply your non-negotiables, streamline changes, and prepare your manuscript for what comes next in your publishing journey.

In this Episode:

How to emotionally prepare for feedback
Smart ways to chase missing critiques
What to do with harsh feedback
How to apply feedback without overwhelm
Next steps after self-editing is complete

Resources:

Hart Bound Developmental Editing
Agnes Wolfe - agneswolfeauthor.com
Dragonheart Academy - Dragonheartacademy.com

See you next week for episode 52: Packaging & Marketing Tweaks!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 51 Transcript:

Consuming & Processing Feedback

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 51 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We have covered almost everything in this series so far, including last week's episode on how to best spend your time while you are waiting to hear back from editors or feedback readers. Today, we are going to talk about what to do when they are done. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully be equipped to handle this often emotional and challenging part of self-editing calmly and productively. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolf. Welcome.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later next year, and also host and founder of Authors Alcove. I’m here today to tackle some best practices and supportive advice in receiving processing and implementing outside feedback on our manuscripts. So, I just want to take a moment. This is our second-to-last episode. Cannot believe we're already here. So next episode will be our very last one. Crazy. We've done this for an entire year now. So, let's get started. Where do we want to start with this topic? What should we expect from the exact moment a development editor like yourself, a beta reader like myself, or yourself, or whoever else sends us their feedback on our writing?

Rebecca: So, as a bit of a generalization, and this isn't going to be for everyone, but I think that for most people, you should expect it to suck. No matter how emotionally or mentally prepared you are for it, or think you are for it, getting that feedback from an outside source is almost always going to be difficult in some way or another. So, what I suggest you expect is, first of all, punctuality. So, if you know, hey, I gave my beta readers a deadline of, let's say, February 10th, then be nice to yourself on February 10th. And brace yourself enough that it will be helpful, but not so much that you're stressing over something that isn't actually that big of a deal. And just know what you're going to get into so that it doesn't blindside you. If you have lived a life, or had hobbies, or had careers where feedback of similar styles has been a regular occurrence that you've gotten used to, you’re likely better prepared than many, but I think that a lot of folks, and particularly writers that I've spoken to, that I've worked with, There is always going to be some level of… okay, did they hate it? Are they going to hate it? I don't like hearing negative or constructive things about my book! So preparing yourself for that moment can really make a difference. And that's really the only thing that I can say for what to expect in the very moment of getting that email, or that Zoom call, or whatever your arrangement is with those feedback readers.

Agnes: I know it's kind of funny, but, I actually felt like when I got your feedback, that it was confirmation that I was on the right track, because a lot of what you had to say were criticisms—I was like, okay, I need to change this, I need to change that—but, you know, I did send it off at a pretty early stage, really, so that was part of it, but it was actually very confirmation, like, okay, I think I know story structure better than I think I do. I know my faults, I know where I'm lacking, and some of the things I wasn't sure on, and I was like, okay, I'm not sure I really should do this, like having Novak as a perspective, as a point of view character. And you…

Rebecca: I think that it's pretty common that if you get feedback a little bit earlier in the process, you are going to be more receptive to it. But also, just your attitude there was great, and I think that having that attitude is going to be very, very helpful to you, and I'm glad. I do put effort into trying to be as encouraging as I am helpful, so that's great to hear on all fronts.

Agnes: Yeah, that is one of the things I do have to say about her, as opposed to some others, because I've heard of Horror stories of people just feeling like they are being attacked. I did not feel attacked. Like, whenever she did say things that were kind of like, “Ummmm, this needs to change,” she said it in such a nice way that made me feel good.

Rebecca: Good.

[both laugh]

Agnes: And I think that's, you know, that vibe thing that we talked about, finding a development editor, I think that's part of it. But anyway, so when we get that feedback, what if we don't hear back from someone, or I guess, what if we don't hear back from someone by the deadline that we had agreed upon?

Rebecca: Essentially, you can bug them a couple of times, and I suggest doing so professionally. So don't come at it like an attack, don't come at it like you've been wronged. But it is absolutely acceptable to send a couple, so two, three at a stretch, emails, let's say one the day after the deadline was missed, and maybe one a week or two later. That just says, “hey, we had this arrangement, I'm not sure what's going on, I would love an update to see where you are, if you can get feedback to me later, I would love to know what your new expectation for when that might be is.” That's specifically for beta readers, for a developmental edit, if you're paying them, it should be in the contract, you should have a contract, and if that contract gets broken, pursue it. they're not your friends, essentially. You are paying them, and as the paid professional, it is our job to meet deadlines. It is our job to uphold the promises that we made, meet our contract obligations. And if they don’t, there should be legal recourse for you in a contract to get your money back. Or get a discount if they are still going to give you feedback, just delayed. And it is a reality that you often have deadlines stacked on top of each other. If you're expecting your developmental feedback back by a certain date, you probably have a line editor or a copy editor lined up for a reasonable time after that. And if your developmental editor is weeks late, that’s going to throw off your entire schedule, so you might lose deposit payments with other professionals. Everything else down the line can get screwed up by that. And that is a very real impact that whoever is missing that deadline and making that mess up should pay for. Probably literally. So, if it's casual, if people are doing this service to you for free, be polite, be professional, give them grace, always have multiple beta readers in case one of them drops out. But when it's professional, stand your ground, hold your boundaries, know your rights, and pursue them as needed.

Agnes: Okay, so back to the main topic for today. What are some common pitfalls or mistakes around reading outside feedback you've either fallen into yourself as a writer, or seen others make?

Rebecca: Sure. So, for myself, one of the biggest mistakes that I've ever made around receiving feedback was thinking that I was a better writer than I am, and I think that that's pretty common. When I finished writing my first book, I thought I was the bee's knees. I thought this was the best book ever written. And on one hand, that helped me get the book written, and then I started getting feedback, and it was a little bit brutal, but it needed to be, because I needed a lot of help on it. And the realization that I came to was, oh, I need to apply the same processes and mindsets and criticisms that I'm good at doing for other people's work on my own, and that sounds like it should be obvious, but it wasn't obvious to me at that time. So, I set it aside for months. And when I came back to it, I was able to view it more like an editor than the person who wrote it and went back to the feedback documents that I'd gotten from my beta readers and was able to do a lot more with that. Some of the common pitfalls that I've seen other folks make just includes expecting praise more than feedback, and if that's what you want, especially from a free beta reader, tell them. That's all I can really say. I do free beta reads now and then. I've got a group that I run that I do that in. And if someone's like, I just need encouragement, or I mostly need encouragement on this, I am happy to do that. 9 out of 10 of my comments will be, oh, I loved this moment, oh, that's a great line, oh, I love this character, oh, you have an animal familiar, I love that. And then, like, 1 in 10 will be something along the lines of, this scene feels a little bit slow, do you want to trim some of the stuff out, or, do you want to consider moving this scene early, or whatever? So, if you're not open to significant criticism or really constructive feedback, be clear about that. And if you get something outside of those requests, you need to be prepared to ignore it rather than getting upset about it. Another common pitfall that I've seen is just that people don't get emotionally involved in it, they don't get upset, but they also don't take it seriously. So, they will read something, and on their first knee-jerk reaction, go, “Nah,” and then never come back to it. Never give it the consideration that, personally, I would probably think it deserves. There is absolutely space for making those decisions for yourself. It is absolutely your right to read a piece of feedback at any level from any outside feedback and go, you know what, I think that they're wrong about that. Or, I want to take a completely different approach to fixing this issue than the one they recommend. But don't take that too far. If you're paying a professional, especially, you should probably weigh their advice like they're a professional. So, by all means, dismiss a piece of advice, but don't do so quickly or rashly. If you don't like it, highlight it, mark it, whatever, and then re-read the feedback document a couple of times. Come back to it when maybe you're in a different headspace, when you've had more sleep, whatever the situation is. And if you're going to scrap it, do so very purposefully, and make sure that you can articulate why. I'm sure there are other pitfalls that I've seen, that I've experienced, but those are kind of the big ones that I can think of right now, so, if folks have other ones that they would like to mention, comment those, and I'll see if I have further thoughts on it.

Agnes: This kind of piggybacks on yours, but having talked to a lot of writers, I find it interesting why people choose not to have beta readers, and then I also have found it interesting on what people have said about beta reading. And one of the things that I have heard from many of them is when they first got back from either a developmental editor or a beta reader, and they were like, I disagree, I disagree, I disagree! And they just thought, I'm a terrible writer, and they set it aside, and actually, that had served them well. Because when they picked it back up, they were able to see it with fresh eyes, and then they're like, oh, this makes a lot of sense. And talking to people who had beta readers, and they totally disagreed with it, and they were like, I'm never having a beta reader again, one of the things that I have heard that I definitely agree with is actually—I wish I had the quote, but it's from Stephen King, and he talked about how your readers usually are right about what is not correct, they're just usually wrong about why. And—because you are not the only development editor that I've talked to, you're my favorite, but you are not the only one—and the thing that I have heard back from all developmental editors is that the edits are usually so much smaller than the writer thinks, and so I think when you hear the feedback of, like, oh my goodness, this doesn't work, you need to scrap this entire thing. They might be right, it doesn't work, but you probably don't have to scrap the whole thing. You might just have to write a sentence, or a paragraph, or even just moving something. Anyway.

Rebecca: No, I think that's a great point, and specifically to that, when you're reading through feedback, by all means, always try to interpret smaller. So, absolutely, what you were just saying, but perhaps phrased more from an editor's standpoint, if you get feedback of… this character isn't acting like themselves in this scene. If you're in an emotional place, if this is close to your heart, or if you're just that kind of person, if this is how your brain works, one interpretation of that is, I need to go change how this character acts in every part of the book, I need to completely overhaul the character arc, this is going to take months, I don't know how to do this. Take a breath and interpret smaller. Go, okay, I need to change that one word describing their body language here so that it better fits everything else. Every piece of advice or feedback you ever get, by all means, feel free to interpret smaller, see if that works, and if it doesn’t, try scaling it up step by step. I think that is a fantastic point to bring up here.

Agnes: So, then, what are some other recommendations—back to the questions I have written down—that you have for folks to maybe approach this process better?

Rebecca: I feel like I've already touched on a few points, so trying not to repeat myself. I recommend following your gut instinct, but within reason. So, sometimes when I open an email from my dev editor, or a beta reader or something like that, I'm in the right headspace, and I will immediately open it up and read through it and start taking notes, because that's where I'm at that day, on that book, whatever the case may be. There are others, other books, other days, other beta readers, whatever, where I open the email and I just get that cold flash inside, and I'm just like, I can't do this right now. And I will, you know, download the document, and I will reply saying, thank you very much, I will read this when I have a chance. And then I go about my day like that didn't happen at all. So, it's important to pay attention and not hurt yourself or the creative process by trying to do what you can't at a given moment. However, you do need to come back to it at some point, if you do set it aside on a given day. So, give yourself grace, but also hold yourself accountable on a slightly larger scale. The other pieces of advice that I have are, take notes while you're reading through the document the first time. I’ve said this so many times, I really hope you have some sort of notes document separate from your manuscript where you can jot things down. So, have that open next to your feedback document, and as you're going through, what I very specifically recommend is, as you're reading through your feedback, when you see something that you're like, oh yeah, I can do that in 5 minutes, put that in your notes. And just keep reading through but essentially scrolling past the stuff that you feel resistance to, that you're not sure you agree on, that you're not sure you understand, that feels intimidating, whatever. But on your very first read of that feedback, pull out the things that you're like, yep, I can do that. Yep, I can do that. And before you do a second read of the feedback, go do those quick and easy things. That’s going to give you a win right off the bat, and I think that that is huge. Because after you've gone and you've done these things that are easy, that are very tangible and understandable and you totally agree with, you’re going to be more open to the other stuff, and perhaps now that you've fixed those quick and easy issues, as you do your second and third and fifth and 10th read-through of the feedback—whatever is needed and whatever fits your personality—some of those remaining issues may already have been fixed by what you already did. Or maybe because you went in and you fixed a quick and easy thing, you did see the pattern that this other note was talking about, so now you understand it on your next read-through. Taking those notes, doing the quick and easy things first, I think is super, super helpful. I think that it is also important to mention that you can keep communicating with the person who gave you feedback. It does not have to be a one-and-done thing. If that is the situation, if the editor is the kind of editor who doesn't want to hear from you ever again after you edit for them, which is not me, then sure. If this is a beta reader that you have no other connection with, and they make it pretty clear that, no, I'm done, washing my hands of it, sure. Most of the time, massive majority of the time, you can absolutely make a list of the things that you're not clear on or that you kind of want to get a better explanation of because you don't think you agree, but maybe if they explained it differently you would, kind of stuff. And a week after, maybe a month after, don't wait too long, feel free to send them an email. Or ask for another Zoom call, whatever the arrangement is, and ask for the clarity, because you can get it. And just the act of articulating, “hey, I didn't understand what you meant, really, when you said this scene felt comical, and I absolutely wasn't going for that. Can you talk me through that a little bit more?” by itself can be incredibly helpful in processing, figuring things out, stuff like that. I’m sure I have more advice on this, and when I'm working with clients, if they hit any sticking points processing my feedback, I love talking to them about it, I love doing Zoom calls, debriefs, whatever. So, if anyone ever feels like they're hitting sticking points, please talk to me about it.

Agnes: So, how can we figure out what works best for our personalities for us around consuming and doing something with this feedback? Especially if it's our first time getting this kind of feedback, and we're not used to getting this kind of feedback.

Rebecca: Sure. I think my advice around listen to your gut but also hold yourself accountable is sort of a starting point. Beyond that, try a certain approach for a day, or a week, or whatever feels right. So, if, let's say, you're new to this, this is your first time getting feedback, for the first week, try the approach of, I'm going to be kind to myself, and I'm going to let it sit, and I'm going to let it process, and I'm just going to try to let it sort of subconsciously filter into emotions. At the end of that week, if you still haven't gotten anything done, that’s probably not the right approach for you. So, second week, let’s try taskmaster approach, where I am absolutely going to force myself to do X, Y, and Z on this timeline, and I'm not going to do anything else, and I have to meet these deadlines. If, at the end of the week, you have gotten stuff done but you really don't want to ever touch this project again as long as you live, that’s also probably not the right approach for you. So, feel free to experiment, and in doing so, just make sure that you give yourself a deadline so that it doesn't become just prolonged failure. And try both extremes. Try options that you hear about other authors using. Ask authors that you know, hey, what do you do? Maybe I'll try that for a week. And over time—so over maybe a couple of months, which is totally reasonable for self-editing with this feedback—you can, even if it's your first book, even if it's your first time getting feedback, develop these patterns for yourself. And I do recommend, when something works for you, write it down. For myself, I have notes on, okay, don't do a sugar breakfast if I need to do intense editing, because then my brain is just not at its peak. And don't let myself sleep in too late, because I actually do function better when I wake up a little bit earlier in the day. Have this certain music going on. When I find something that works, I write it down. But, the caveat to that is, people change. So, if you're writing, let's say, one book a year, so you're going through this process about once a year, it is totally reasonable and normal that what worked perfectly for your process last year might need adjustments and tweaking and additions and rethinking the next year. So, have grace for yourself, but do try not to forget a great little trick that worked for you if it's going to keep working for you.

Agnes: So, I have a lot of thoughts on this next topic, so I'm curious what you're going to say, and you're probably going to say exactly what's on my mind, but can we just touch back on what role our non-negotiables that we talked about forever ago should be playing right now in the process?

Rebecca: This is where they come into full use. You should have them written down. If you didn't do that back in that episode, whatever that was, write them down now. And I recommend having it visually, in your field, when you're looking at your work, especially when you're reading the feedback. So, I will put it on a sticky note, and I will stick it to my laptop screen. Having that boulder, like we were talking about, established is going to help you build the path around it. If your non-negotiable was, let's say, something like… my antagonist is actually a good person, which is going to force the reader to see my protagonist as perhaps morally gray or an anti-hero. And you get feedback of going, I don't think your antagonist is actually an antagonist. They're not acting like a villain. What do you mean this is the antagonist? You keep framing them like that, but they don't feel like that. What are you doing? You’ve written down what your non-negotiable is. Ignore any of the feedback that you don’t think works with that. It is important to still read that feedback. So if you see a note that starts with, your antagonist has blah, blah, blah—finish reading the paragraph and maybe take a breath with it, and decide for yourself, okay, could I tweak a sentence here and there just a little bit without compromising my non-negotiable that would still address this piece of feedback, let's say, 10%? Okay, cool, maybe you want to do that. But, at the end of the day, if you have a very solid non-negotiable and you're getting feedback around it, delete those comments. That's the entire point, because you want to still love your book, and you want to have that armor of knowing, you know what, this is the one thing you don't get to touch. This is my boundary. And frankly, having that non-negotiable, knowing that one specific-as-you-can thing that does not get to get touched, is going to make everything else so much easier. Because of course you can change that. It's not your non-negotiable, it's not that big of a deal. Oh, you want me to completely rearrange these 5 scenes? I mean, that doesn't touch my non-negotiable, sure. So, non-negotiables aren't just about what doesn't get touched. It's about keeping this one little thing safe so that it feels so much easier to do everything else.

Agnes: Like you had said, I think it is important that we read it even if we choose not to listen to it. Because I actually think that hearing people's feedback on your non-negotiables, especially if it's against it, can actually help strengthen why you have it as a non-negotiable, and it might actually be like, okay, they didn't like this, but you know what? Maybe it's because I haven't built up why this is so important. So that's actually what I was thinking about when I had this question for you. The next thing is, what if it's not a non-negotiable, but we just really don't like some of the feedback that we got, and it's not related to our non-negotiable, or which it just feels just way too harsh, or mean, or objective to really do anything with?

Rebecca: Sure. This is going to happen. The more you write, the more feedback you get. Especially if you're trying to use a large beta team, you are going to get feedback that just feels mean or totally off-base, or you're wondering what book they read because it could not possibly have been the one you sent them. My top recommendation here, first of all, is to separate yourself from the work. They are not angry at you. They are not judging you as a bad person or a bad writer. They didn't like this particular story, and no story is written for everyone. Very closely related to that, and a close second on my list of recommendations here are, touch back on your ideal reader. I don't remember if that was episode 1 or 2 in this series, but it is so, so important, because at this stage in the process, it is really important to know who your ideal reader is, compare that to the reader giving you feedback, and adjust your interpretation as needed because of it. If you are, for example, writing a novel for middle-aged men who really like thrillers and light horror and you're getting nasty feedback from a teenage girl, that's not your ideal reader. That's wildly off from your ideal reader, or even a middle-aged, retired man who likes police procedurals and thrillers but does not like horror or anything remotely fantasy. Knowing how they contrast to that ideal can be very, very helpful in understanding, perhaps, why they are expressing themselves in this off-color way, or simply allow you to take their feedback of, I don't like this, and interpret it through a lens that goes, okay, well, they don't like this, but I think my ideal reader would like it if I just tweaked it this little bit, and that can really, really help you move forward. Beyond that, if you're getting feedback that you know isn't related to your non-negotiable but is still too harsh, or too brutally honest—which, I hate that term—or hard to view objectively in any kind of way, what you can do is anchor back on the heart of your story. Why did you write this story in the first place? Why do you like this story? Why do you think that if people read this story, they would like it and remember it and recommend it? Just try to stay grounded on that. And use that as additional armor as you're reading the feedback. Remember that, to you, this is a great story. Remember that, to you, this is the best story ever, because you wanted to write it, because you couldn't find it. And at the end of the day, if someone is just being mean, and it feels like they're being mean for the sake of it, delete their feedback. All of it. Get it out of your life, because if it's not productive, then it's not productive. And being a writer, being an author, being a aspiring whatever you want to be with your writing and your creativity does not obligate you to listen to them. It does not obligate you to value their perspective at all. And unfortunately, I've had to face this with a paid developmental editor in my past. Where I had to take that moment of going, they are not my ideal reader. They clearly do not connect with the heart of the story that I know connects with me and will with others. I don't feel like they're engaging in good faith. I don't feel like I'm getting value out of this. So, I'd already applied what feedback of theirs I felt was valuable, I'd taken notes, and at the end of the day, I'm sitting there stressing, going, I paid a lot of money for this feedback, I feel obligated to do something with it, and then took a step back and went, I don't think that they actually had my or my book's best interests at heart. I'm going to put it all in a separate folder and never look at it again. And I'm really glad that I did. And I have had writing friends who've had beta readers like that, who've had different dev editors who they had to deal with that with. And I think it really comes down to, you don't owe them valuing their opinion if they prove their opinion unworthy of value.

Agnes: And I think that we can kind of take that as, especially going forward picking out beta readers and picking out developmental editors, that we want to try to look for people who are at least somewhat our target audience. Obviously, I'm probably going to have some adults read my middle grade book, but at least people who enjoy that sort of thing and are familiar with that genre—and which is a big part of why I actually chose you over a couple of the other ones, is because even though you are not a middle grade writer or reader, you are a fantasy reader and writer. And so for that, I was like, okay, this was one of the many reasons I chose you. So, I feel like we've covered a lot about just consuming the feedback. What do we do next? How do we actually use that feedback, so once we have consumed and internally processed all of this feedback, what's the next step?

Rebecca: Sure. So, I already covered what I suggest the very first step be, which is do the quick and easy things. Take the steps immediately that you can do with changing a sentence, or swapping two scenes and changing a paragraph in each so that the timeline still works. Whatever you feel like you can do quickly and competently, get it done, get it out of the way, and then start looking at the other things. So, my recommended process is, if you get feedback on a specific topic, let's say, I don't feel like your characters really have an arc, I don't feel like they really grow over the course of the story and that's preventing me from feeling invested. Go revisit whatever resources work for you on the topic of character arcs. So, maybe that's the episode or episodes that we did that covered that topic in this series. Maybe that's a certain blog post, or a book, or a YouTube series that you like on that topic. And just re-consume it. And as you're re-consuming it, take notes on how you think that might apply to your specific situation. Beyond that, once you've sort of refreshed on any overarching topics you need to, make lists of ideas for potential fixes. I think that the process of Implementing feedback edits can often be seen as sort of this binary of ones and zeros of, alright, I got feedback, I need to make this change. I got this feedback, I need to make that change. I got this feedback, I need to make that change. And that's not what I recommend doing. I am a huge proponent of iterative brainstorming. So, if you get feedback about a specific issue, by all means, brainstorm 5 different ways that you could potentially fix it. And that is going to keep you from getting stuck to a significant degree, and it's going to save you from this feeling of, I don't even know where to start. And hopefully it will also save you from this issue of, but I don't want to make that fix.

When you give yourself options—and ideally, options that sort of explore a wider range of considerations around a piece of feedback—I think that that can be incredibly helpful in keeping the creative flow going and keeping things productive, and actually getting through feedback instead of just reading it over and over and over, waiting for that sort of spark of inspiration where you finally know how to fix the thing. Beyond that, I recommend trying to plan out what changes you want to make all together and then going and applying them all. It can be really, really tedious and waste time if you get one piece of feedback, let’s say about an act structure issue, so you want to shift some things around a little bit—so you do that, and then another piece of feedback is now much harder to apply because you've changed the order of things, or you've introduced a new issue that now needs to get changed. So, like I've been doing through this entire series, I recommend, plan out all the changes you're going to make in a round of editing, make sure that they all work together, and then go in and apply them. And then lastly on this, once you're done with addressing all of the pieces of outside feedback that you want to, or that you're willing to, or that feel enough, do go and do another round of polishing. So, essentially, the topics that we covered in this series in episodes 41 through 47. Because doing more structural edits, doing more content editing, is going to introduce more typos and grammar and punctuation and whatever other polishing needs to get then put on top of it again. The good thing is, doing the polishing steps again now after the feedback stages is going to go so much faster and easier because you already did it once before, you're just now trying to catch the new sort of scuffs that got put on the project.

Agnes: So, this is another topic that I have a lot of thoughts on, but what can we do if we do agree with the piece of feedback, especially about something that isn't working quite right, but we don't know where to start in figuring out exactly what needs to be fixed or how to do so? I feel like this is where I am, and that's why I have some thoughts on this.

Rebecca: I would love to hear your thoughts on that, and then I will add my own.

Agnes: Well, one of the things that I— You kind of mentioned some of it already—but I found doing the smaller edits first worked a lot better. And also just giving yourself time to re-brainstorm has really helped me actually, like journaling. Because I'm looking at it, and I'm like, okay, I know I need to change this, but I have no idea what. And instead of actually working in my book, I actually journaled about the thing, and that helped me, because then I was like, okay, and then I started having all of these ideas, and it was almost like writing my story all over again. Because I feel like that's the exciting part for me, is to actually write, not the editing portions. I felt like just having that brainstorming with journaling, and daydreaming, like literally just taking a walk and just thinking about it, was really what helped me the most to move forward. But again, doing the small edits first. Because those will help those creative juices, as they like to say, really get stirred is start small and slowly work your way up to the bigger edits. That's what's worked for me.

Rebecca: My top piece of advice is exactly what you were just talking about, which is process it. And that can be journaling, that can be talking to yourself out loud while you're driving, that can very much be talking to other authors and kind of picking their brain a little bit, like, hey, have you ever gotten feedback about this? How did you deal with that? Or what resources did you read, whatever? One other piece of advice that I will offer is try rewording the piece of feedback in your own voice. Try just rewriting it like you're giving that advice to somebody else. And do that 3 or 4 times. That, on its own, can help you simply take this advice that isn't really meshing with you, and just reword it in a way that your brain can process so much easier.

And then the other thought that I have right now to address specifically feeling stuck is go consume other media and see how they dealt with the same thing. And ideally, consume media that you think is really good, don't consume garbage. Ideally consume media that's in genre, or at least in vibe with yours, and that can be movies, TV, audiobooks, anything. But consume it specifically bearing in mind whatever it is you're stuck on. If you're stuck on having a character arc that really pays off at the end, go watch a movie that pretty much everyone says has a great character arc and just pay attention. Don't have to dissect it, you don't have to analyze it like you're in school, just pay attention, because what you're watching for is inspiration more than answers. When you're consuming this media, just let the muses come to you, let there be that little spark of, oh, that line really shows this kind of change, I'll bet that I could do a similar line if I did this with my character! kind of thing. You’re just consuming media for inspiration, for that light bulb moment. And that is one of the ways that I personally get unstuck most of the time that I run into that in my own writing.

Agnes: I think that's wonderful advice. Actually, that's something that I did as well, is one of the feedback that you had given, which I kind of already knew, like, I felt like I knew a lot of what you said. There was a few things that were a little bit different. But it was that I needed to have more middle grade problems. You know, some of the problems that us adults don't think about as problems but are actually problems when you're in middle grade. And so I actually picked up the Sisters Grimm, which is one of my all-time favorite middle grade series. I've read it so many times, I've read it to each of my girls. We're reading it again. And that actually helped me remember, okay, this is what a middle grade mind is like, these are the middle grade problems. And that's wonderful advice. So now that we've talked about all of that, I do have one last question. What happens after that? What happens last in self-editing, I suppose, since we are just about at the end of our series, what are the big-picture next steps after finishing the self-editing we do based on the outside feedback we get?

Rebecca: This is largely what the next episode is going to go into, and specifically for self-editing, like I said, the next steps are line editor or a copy editor. If anybody needs a suggestion for a great line editor, copy editor, and/or proofreader, there's one on my website. Natasha is amazing, she does great work. And then for traditional publishing, the very next step is going to be to find an agent. So, I kind of refer folks back to the bit more of an in-depth rundown we did on that in the last episode when we were talking about finding these people and preparing for those steps. So, we're going to go over that again in the next episode, we went over that in the last episode a little bit. It's essentially editor or an agent. That is the one next step to put your energy into.

Agnes: Well, thank you so much for everything, and I cannot believe we just finished our 51st episode.

Rebecca: Woo!

Agnes: We only have one episode left, I can't believe it.

Rebecca: It feels unreal, it really does. But also, I'm so happy with how much we've been able to cover so far. Like I hinted at, next week we are going to do the very last episode of this year-long self-editing series, and keep things light, as I know folks are probably busy during the holidays. So, we will be talking about some last-minute, kind of fun, optional things to do a final self-editing pass around. Such as collecting your favorite quotes and starting to build ideas for book art and your final blurb. Things like that. For now, I want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, a Happy Hanukkah, Blessed Yule, Happy Holidays to everyone celebrating anything around this time of year. And I also want to thank everyone following along with this series. I hope that if you know any other authors who are nearing the end of their first draft or struggling with rewriting or revising their novel, you'll consider sending them this series to help them understand and finish the process of self-editing. Thank you for joining me today, Agnes, and I will see you in the next and last one.

Agnes: I know, thank you, and I'm so excited to do our last one.

See you next time!

Killing Time While Getting Feedback: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 50

Tue, 16 Dec 2025 23:00:07 GMT

Killing Time During Feedback: After-episode thoughts and transcript…

Since this episode, like the last, goes over booking professional editors and outside readers, I want to be sure to reiterate an important piece of advice on that: I suggest not using the same outside reader for more than one layer of outside critique. So, don’t use the same person for developmental and line edits, or beta reading and copy edits. You want to get the highest number of FRESH eyes as you can on your book through the pre-publishing process.

The DIY blurb-writing I recommend is Bryan Cohen's book How to Write a Sizzling Synposis:

I also think the occasional free webinars he offers on the topic are great, but DON'T recommend paying for burbs written by his company, Best Page Forward, as I found the process both frustrating and disappointing, and the blurbs I wrote myself have performed better post-publication and polled better with my readers.

And lastly mentioned in this episode, I believe that if you want to work on plotting out your series or just your next book while waiting through the editing process right now, these episodes are the ones I feel are most helpful with planning/potting:

Episode 3: Using Genre

Episode 4: The Core of the Story

Episode 5: Non-Negotiables

Episode 6: One Story or More?

Episode 7: Beginning, Middle, & End

Episode 8: The Protagonist's Pivotal Choice

Episode 9: Delivering a Great Climax & Payoff

Episode 10: Character Arcs & Protagonist Transformations

Episode 11: Creating & Checking Effective Antagonists

Happy editing!

Episode 50 Overview:

Killing Time While Getting Feedback

"Should I keep tinkering with my manuscript while beta readers or an editor is going through it? If not, what else should I do while I wait?"

Join developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring middle grade fantasy author Agnes Wolfe as they discuss what to do–and what to avoid–between finishing revisions and sending to editors or beta readers. From booking professionals early to prepping your pages and platform, this episode equips you with the confidence to move forward in your publishing journey.

In this Episode:

Why you should consider being hands-off while you wait for feedback
How to take a break and yet protect your momentum
What to consider next – copy edit, professional cover, timelines and bookings
Cautions of tweaking during the wait
Practical advice if you can’t help but edit

Resources:

Hart Bound Developmental Editing - https://hartboundediting.com/
Agnes Wolfe - agneswolfeauthor.com
Rebecca’s Favorite DIY Blurb Resource: https://a.co/d/aTESb6o
Dragonheart Academy - Dragonheartacademy.com

See you next week for episode 51: Consuming & Processing Feedback!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 50 Transcript:

Killing Time While Getting Feedback

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 50 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author, asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We have covered so much in this series so far, including last week's episode on formatting and finding feedback readers. Today, we're going to talk about what to do while you are waiting to hear back from them. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully understand why you probably shouldn't keep self-editing during this stage, and know what you can do instead to keep your productive momentum going. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolf. Hello.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later next year, and also host and founder of Authors Alcove. I’m here today to tackle how authors can best use their time while their manuscript is off being reviewed by an editor or beta readers. So, let's start with the biggest question. Why shouldn't we just keep self-editing while we are waiting to hear back from a feedback reader?

Rebecca: First of all, I absolutely understand anyone who's ever been in that situation and felt the need to just keep tinkering, because of course you're going to keep finding typos. Of course you're going to remember that you forgot to replace that one line, things like that. The reason that I generally recommend not continuing to tinker while it's off in feedback boils down to a few different points.

First, you want to avoid wasting your time. When you get feedback back from these outside readers, you're probably going to have a lot of overhauling to do. You might end up rearranging scenes, scrapping them, scrapping pages, scrapping plot lines, anything like that. And if you wasted dozens of hours in between fixing the typos and getting the line-level flow just right on a scene that you end up scrapping, that’s wasted time and wasted energy and effort, and aside from just having better things to spend your time on, knowing that you've wasted this time looking back on it can be really discouraging, so it's best to avoid that.

You also want to avoid running into the issue where your understanding of the current state of the book doesn’t match the version that you're getting feedback on. If, let's say, you get an overall note from a beta reader that says something like, I don't feel like your antagonist reads realistically, they feel kind of cartoonish. If you spent the time that the book was off being reviewed working on fixing your antagonist, then it's going to be a lot harder to match the critique that you get on the topic against the reality. And therefore, you may miss out on some opportunities for further improvement that you would otherwise have if you and your feedback readers were still on the same page there.

And then the last two points that I want to mention here is that, as we've talked about in several episodes before, breaks are helpful. It's nice to take a step back, take a breather, refresh your energy. And then also, it can be very helpful to start working on shifting gears at this stage in the process. We talked in early episodes about the importance of shifting gears from drafting brain, from that creative letting things flow mindset, into one that is more critical and more prepared to review things and make edits. Now it's time for a second shift where we're shifting out of editing and more into packaging and marketing and those sort of mindsets and topics to put your energy into.

Agnes: So, do you feel like there's one or two big things writers should do instead while waiting on feedback? I know you just mentioned one.

Rebecca: Yeah. I suggest that with this time, if you're open to it, and if it's something that you want to do, you start writing, or at least plan out, some kind of lead magnet. Especially if you're a first-time author, especially if you're working on the first book in a series. What a lead magnet is, if you're not familiar with that term, is usually a piece of writing that you can give away for free to get people to give you a try. It's like a little teaser taste test at Costco. It gives them a little bit of an understanding for your style and what kind of genre, etc., that you're writing about so that they will then go and buy the series. And if you have a long series, sometimes the first book in the series is your lead magnet. But, again, if it's your first book in the series, that's not really an option. You still want to sell that book for a profit, at least a slim one. So, having a related novella, or a bonus epilogue, or bonus scenes in the book from a different POV kind of thing can be great in getting readers to sort of sign up to your newsletter, or to your Patreon, your Kickstarter, your social media, whatever that happens to be.

And then the second thing that I very specifically recommend you work on while you're waiting to get your feedback back is your blurb. Like I mentioned in the last episode, you should have some blurb to present to potential beta readers, or to an editor. As that can be very helpful in showing them what they're getting into, or what you were going for with the story, so that they can help make sure that the reality of what you wrote matches that. But this is a great opportunity to sit down, when you're telling yourself you can't actually be working on the book, and really rework it and polish it and get it into the best shape that you can.

And also, I want to talk a little bit more about the lead magnets, because I think that people tend to go off in this odd direction of, well, I'll just write a short story, and that'll be my lead magnet. There are a few specifics around the lead magnets that I like to point out to folks who are doing that. First of all, I recommend that it have a few distinct qualities. First of all, that it be related to the series. So, for example, my lead magnet novella is written in the same world, with the same sort of generation. And there are a couple of secondary characters that cross over, and then the main couple in the novella do become secondary characters later in the series. So having it tie in, or at least be said in the same world and roughly the same place so that you can introduce things like magic system and worldbuilding and that kind of stuff, is very helpful. I also recommend that it have a good hook at the end. So, I've talked about my soapbox on cliffhangers in the past—a lead magnet novella is a great place to lean pretty heavily into having a cliffhanger, because its entire job is to get people to go, I need more of this, I'm going to go start reading this full series, or this author's standalone, whatever the case is. I also recommend that even if it's a short lead magnet, even if it's flash fiction, so up to 10,000 words, or a single chapter bonus kind of thing, make sure that it delivers emotion and any other qualities that you want to sort of showcase. So, this might be your world building, this might be character development, obviously at a very small scale, depending on how short it is, but make sure that you're still delivering something in that bonus piece. It shouldn't just be fluff. On the other side of things, I very, very strongly recommend that you avoid spoilers in any bonus content. And I've seen this in a couple novellas or short stories that I've edited for folks. If you're going to give away the climax of your series in your novella lead magnet? That’s a big problem, and you really shouldn't do that. So, I recommend prequel novellas as lead magnets, because then you're not spoiling anything, or if you're going to do a giveaway like a bonus epilogue, that’s not necessarily something that you can advertise ahead to get people into this series, but that I recommend linking, let's say, at the end of book one, so that people will sign up to your mailing list then, without spoiling the first book in the series kind of thing. The reason I recommend doing this now, in this stage, is also, very specifically because you still want to get your bonus content edited. Probably just copy, line-edited, if it's just a chapter. Probably dev or beta as well if it's a full novella. But at a very minimum, if you can have it drafted while your main book is getting structurally edited, then you can toss this bonus piece into whatever your word count is that you're getting a line editor, or a copy editor, or a proofreader to look at.

And then a little bit more on the blurb topic. I'm sorry, I'm a little bit all over the place today. I know that a lot of authors hate writing blurbs, and that's totally fine. So, I do want to just mention that getting professional blurbs written for you is an option. I recommend strongly trying to get that tacked on to a professional edit that you're paying for, be that a developmental editor or a line editor. In that case, the person is actually reading the whole book. And as an add-on, it's usually cheaper than trying to get it done as a standalone service by a company that specializes in that, and those professionals aren't going to read your book. They just aren't. What they're going to do is they're going to give you a questionnaire that you're going to fill out, and you're going to be expected to be able to list things like, what is the climax? What is the crisis? What is the starting point? What is the antagonist's arc in 10 words or less? What are your major tropes, all of these things. And then that professional is just going to put them into the right kind of template. Because of this, I generally recommend at least trying to go the DIY route first. And on that topic, I will recommend the same resource that I always recommend, which is the book How to Write a Sizzling Synopsis by Brian Cohen, and I will be sure to link that in the show notes.

Agnes: You know, I'm so glad that you were talking about the novella thing, because I have actually thought about that several times, and as you were talking, I finally figured out exactly where I wanted to go. Which is interesting because it was not one that has been on my radar, and then all of a sudden it was like a lightbulb moment. I'm like, Yay! Inspiration!

Rebecca: Heck yeah!

Agnes: Anyway, is there anything else that we could be working on as well?

Rebecca: Yeah, absolutely. So, first on the list here is work on your series considerations. So, work on planning out the further books in your series so that you have a clear understanding of where things go after the end of the one that you're currently working on. If you're already deep into a series, go back and re-read the past books in this series while you're waiting on the beta or dev feedback, somewhat to just maintain that energy and keep your interest in continuing this project going—but also to make sure that you're not introducing series-level plot holes that perhaps you've missed on previous rounds of editing. I also recommend that you take this opportunity to really make a list of all of the open loops that you've left at the end of the book that you're working on, and take that list and go write it down, or apply it, whatever feels right, to the later series ideas and planning, again, if you're writing in a series.

I also just want to touch on real quick here that a good chunk of this series and these ideas about story structure can absolutely be applied to planning another book, or a next book, or the rest of this series. It’s generally safe to assume that the topics that we covered in Episode 1 and 2, essentially audience and genre, will be the same across a whole series. That's typically recommended, because if someone likes the genre and they are the right audience for book one in a series, you kind of want to keep catering to that same audience and delivering the same genre all the way through. But, if you want to try to take some of these series episodes and apply it to the planning or drafting stages, I personally think that episodes 3 through 11 are going to be the most helpful in those planning, outlining, and brainstorming stages, so feel free to go back and revisit those while you're waiting on your feedback. Lastly, the thing that I recommend doing while you're waiting in this sometimes awful interim of going, oh my god, are they going to like the book? is start thinking about the next steps beyond the self-editing and where you want to go. Finding and planning the professionals, whatever comes after when you're ready to really start moving towards publication.

Agnes : Do you mind going just a little bit more into exactly what next step should be on the radar as far as series and stuff?

Rebecca: Sure. So, this is going to be a little bit different depending on if you're going traditional or indie. Speaking mostly from the indie side of things, you’re going to need editors. So, after developmental you need to at least do a copy editor. If you don't pay for any other professional editing in the entire process, you need to pay a professional copy editor. If you have more resources, if you feel it's needed, whatever the case may be, you can also consider hiring a line editor between dev and copy. What a developmental editor does is look at structure, world, plot, characters, that kind of stuff. A line editor is going to look at how you present them. So, what is your paragraph structure? Are you getting into too much purple prose to a higher degree than a dev will give you feedback on? They’re going to help with the flow of the language, and the beauty of how you express yourself kind of stuff. And then a copy editor is more for typos, grammar, and punctuation. Which is kind of the baseline for publication. Beyond that, you can also do a proofread after that, and hire a proofreader to do that.

Beyond editing, you also want to start looking for cover artists to get a professional cover done. Like I mentioned a minute ago, if you can pay for only one thing, get a copy editor. If you can pay for two things, it should be a copy editor and a professional cover. A cover is going to be the first thing that any and every potential reader sees about your book. Long before you get the opportunity to show them how valuable your story is through them reading it, long before you even get the chance to try to convince them, “hey, I think you'll like this book” with your blurb, they’re going to have a half-second impression of your cover and make their decision from there. So, do a lot of research into the cover artists that you want to use. Make sure that you can communicate well with them, check out their portfolio, all of these kind of things. And this is the time when you should start looking for that kind of thing rather than 6 months down the road, when you're actually ready to publish, and you're like, oh shit, I need a cover now. A lot of cover artists tend to be booked out months ahead of time. It can take a month or two of just establishing what you're looking for, having them do the art, doing revision rounds, all that kind of stuff.

Related to that, you might also look for some character artists. If you want to do pre-orders, or a Kickstarter, or just have swag and merchandise to sell or give away, a lot of authors will try to find someone who's willing to do a couple of sketches of their protagonists, or maybe the climactic moment in their story, whatever that is. So again, this is a great opportunity to go research how you find them, if there are any whose style you really like, or that are highly recommended, get on their waitlist and look at commissioning them.

You can also start looking at building your author website. You kind of need one, that's really all I'm going to say about that. Same thing for social media accounts, same thing for setting up an email newsletter.

And you might also want to start looking at the sign-up process for the sales platforms or aggregators, so Draft 2 Digital, Amazon, IngramSpark, anything like that, they're going to have a sign-up process where you have to make an account, might have to jump through some hoops of verifying your identity. And again, it's better to do that now, while you have downtime, than later when you're stressed about getting everything together for publication.

Lastly, I want to address formatting a little bit here. If you're going to do your publication-ready formatting yourself with—Vellum or Atticus are kind of the two big softwares. There are also free ones, like through Draft2Digital or Reedsy. If you're going to do the DIY version, don’t worry about that yet. That's way down the road, that's after dev and line and copy and proofing. Only then do you get to the DIY formatting. If you want to pay someone to do professional formatting for you, this is a great opportunity to research your options, vet professionals, shop your options, and again, get on their waitlist if they have one and that's relevant.

Agnes: So, I know this is probably outside the scope of self-editing series, but how should we be preparing for these steps now, like you were talking about?

Rebecca: At this stage, like I've mentioned, it's mostly about finding your options, researching exactly what you want and what you're looking for and what is reasonable to ask for, vetting the different options, picking the best one, and booking them. Again, get on their waitlist, get a date on the calendar for when they will be able to work on this project for you. It can also just be about finding the right search terms. If you're really, really new to this, especially around formatting and cover artists and that sort of stuff, I suggest looking through those comp titles that hopefully you still have a list of from very, very early on in this series. You can go to the acknowledgements page, or the copyright page, and you will often see their editors and their artists, particularly cover artists, listed and acknowledged there. So, go find books in your genre, in your niche, in your sub-sub-subgenre whose cover you love, and see if you can find a name, and then go find that person's website.

Which is kind of my next point, which is: don't work with professionals who don't have websites. It's a really low bar, and if a professional does not have a website that they can send you to that is clearly their website, that should be a big red flag, and you probably don't want to work with them. Once you find their website, look through their portfolio, especially for artists. Any cover artist worth their salt should have a gallery of different covers, and there should be variety there. You should like a majority, or you should at least be able to look at it, and any covers that aren't what you're looking for, that are clearly for a different genre, you should still be able to look at it and go, that is objectively a good cover for, let's say, a cookbook, or a self-help book, whatever it is.

For the editor side of things, just look for testimonials. If there are any kind of testimonials, you can try to vet them. I tend to just take their word for it, but that is totally up to you.

And then, as you advance in this process, this is a great opportunity to ask for a sample contract. If you're down to a couple preferred artists or editors, that can be a deciding factor for you. Ask for a sample contract and see if it protects both parties, if it covers all of the things like missed deadlines, or hidden fees, or that sort of stuff that matter to you, and take your time. Actually read through them while you have plenty of time, which is right now, versus feeling stressed, like you have to scroll through and just sign at the bottom later on, when you're like, “I need to get this edited to meet my deadlines” sort of thing.

And then last thing that I really want to talk about here with how to tackle these next steps is; you will get what you pay for, in a lot of cases. There are DIY options for all of these different things. You can DIY start to finish, never paying a professional a cent between drafting and publishing. You can. But you get what you pay for, and it will be better quality if you find someone to help you whose specialty is doing exactly and precisely and nichely that thing. And then, yeah, again, I'm just going to come back and mention one more time, prioritize. If you have a limited budget, prioritize. And I know it sounds weird to hear me saying this as a developmental editor, but, you need to prioritize copy editing and cover. Everything else needs to come below that. I would personally put a developmental edit in third. But, it is up to you where you think your strengths and weaknesses are, what you can or can't do yourself, what you can or can't get for free, like beta feedback, or maybe bartering some other skill in your life for someone to do a proofread for you, whatever that is. It's okay to prioritize, don't be stupid with how you're spending your money. If you have an unlimited budget, go wild.

Agnes: So, one of the things that I personally have… So, I have received over 100 different indie author books, and the thing that I say that I can usually tell when I'm reading what step they skipped, as far as paying. So, I do recommend, do as much as you can with paid. Readers, and that such a thing. And the other one is, is I actually would put book formatting up there. Most people, I can tell if they had—I'm sure there are people that I had no idea. Did you have a professional book formatter?

Rebecca: Nope, I did the DIY.

Agnes: I could not tell, but there are many that I can tell, and so that's one that I definitely would recommend, so that way it's nice and looks professionally formatted. Anyway, what about us who we just can't no touch our manuscript. What do you recommend if we are one of those people who are just like, I need to touch it? What would you recommend for us to do?

Rebecca: I totally get that. That has definitely been me, particularly on the first book I ever wrote. My recommendation, if you absolutely have to keep tinkering, if that's just in your personality, is read through specifically to collect favorite lines. Best quotes, things that you could put on, let's say, a query letter, if they ask for, hey, what are the top 10 quotes from your book? Or you could put on social media stuff, both of which we're going to touch on more I think it's next week, but maybe the week after. Also, keep an eye out for bonus content options as you're reading through. Maybe pay attention, okay, well, I skip a big chunk of time here, maybe I could actually write out an interesting scene that happens off-screen in the main book and offer that as a bonus. Maybe you come up with ideas for, okay, well, this is a fantastic scene, maybe it's the climax of the book. I would love to write this scene from my other POV in a dual POV as well, and offer that alternate sort of perspective and personality on this massive scene to my readers. And very similarly, look for image ideas. If you're going to hire a character artist, or get book art done beyond the cover, having some idea of what scenes in your book are very visually interesting or that you could really play with and describe to this artist is a great thing to bear in mind. So, if you need to keep reading essentially what I'm suggesting is that you don't make edits but you do engage with the work in a way that's going to help you have more lists in place, more resources, more ideas, as you start stepping into those post-editing stages.

Agnes: So how does this all count as part of the self-editing process, since that is the focus of this series?

Rebecca: Knowing when not to edit is important, and I think I've made that point pretty obvious in this episode so far. But there is going to be one more big push of self-editing after you get your feedback notes back from your beta readers and your dev editor. So, I wanted to make sure that we do actually cover the entire self-editing process, and that happens to include covering the gap in that before you actually reach the end, which is largely the point of this particular episode. Especially since, in reality, this step of handing off your work and getting feedback on it is likely to take two to six weeks, and just twiddling your thumbs while you wait can be absolute torture if you haven't given any thought to what you should do during that time but you do know that you should be hands-off.

Agnes: So, I know one of the things that I did when I sent it off to you was actually making character sketches, but that was a little bit earlier in the stage.

But that was something that I did to make sure that I had… I went through and wrote all the descriptions I have for each person, just making sure that there weren't any inconsistencies. Again, you’d want to be careful of actually editing those consistencies, because then you might go into a whole wormhole. Anyway, if truly not doing anything while we are waiting to get feedback is actually what would work better for us, or what we want to do, is that okay? And especially if we schedule other life stuff into that gap, So, literally doing nothing towards our book.

Rebecca: Yes. All of my advice here is for the people who, like me, can’t stand to completely disengage for those probably 2-6 weeks. If completely forgetting that this exists in your life for that time works for you, go for it. Like I mentioned very early on in this episode, taking breaks is really healthy. And if you're the kind of person who this works for, taking that step back and really letting your mind and your body and your spirit and your creativity reset for those weeks can be very, very helpful. It's entirely up to the individual to make the call which option works better for them. But I feel like I have more advice for the folks who that doesn't work well for, which is why we're talking about this today.

Agnes: Okay, so what if we are not those that are working on the side stuff, and we're not the person who decides not to touch it? And we decide to edit our work, and not take your advice? What should we do with that?

Rebecca: Sure, I'm glad we're covering all of our bases here. I, first of all, before you touch it, recommend strongly that you save the exact version that you sent to your beta readers or your developmental editor as sort of a time capsule archive version. You want to be able to reference if a beta reader says, hey, the third line in the fifth paragraph on page 156 feels off to me, you need to be able to go in and actually track what sentence they're talking about, which is going to get messed up if you continue tinkering while it's off with them. So, if you're going to keep tinkering, make sure that you've saved the exact version that you sent them for referencing exact things like that.

Beyond that, I recommend keeping a list somewhere separate from your manuscript where you just make a note of any big or big-ish changes you make. So, if you end up, let's say, going into Chapter 6, and doing some heavy, let's say, just slimming down, so you're removing a lot of exposition, you're removing a lot of description and shoe leather. Make a note that says, Chapter 6, Heavy Line Level Rewrites. If you end up adding in a plotline or taking out a character, make a note that just says, added drowning plotline, removed shopkeeper character, things like that. So that when you're going through the feedback that you got on the earlier version, if someone mentions something, you don't have to try to remember, did I already deal with that? You have a list of what you dealt with while it was off with them, and it's going to save you a lot of frustration and mental load and all of that kind of things.

I also recommend that you take this opportunity, if you're going to keep editing, to take an approach that you haven't tried yet. Maybe that's reading the book backwards, paragraph by paragraph, like I've mentioned. Maybe that's trying text-to-speech or reading it out loud. Use this opportunity, instead of going through it the exact same way you already have over and over, to do something different that will give you a different perspective and perhaps take your self-editing to another level instead of just beating a dead horse, so to speak.

Next on my list of thoughts here is don't beat yourself up when you find more issues in the version that you've already sent out. When, not if. You will find more things that you wish you had changed before you sent it off to your beta readers or your developmental editor. That’s normal. Literally everyone does that. The beta readers and dev editor are not judging you for it, they're not thinking less of you for it. Take a deep breath, change it if you want to, make a note, and move on. Try not to have that moment of, “Oh, no, I can't believe I left this typo in.” That's not helpful, that's not productive. Let it go.

And then, kind of related to that, don’t bug your outside readers about issues if you find them, or if you forgot to mention a thing. If it's a big deal, if you forgot to mention something like, Oh, by the way, there's this massive trigger warning on it, or, oh, by the way, I know that Chapter 17 is only half-written, just ignore that, or, oh, by the way, I haven't actually finished writing the climax, bear with me—that's fine, but if it's a little thing, like, oh, I misnamed this character in Chapter 6, or there was a typo here I need to clarify what that sentence meant… don’t bother them. Take a deep breath. Take a step back, pretend like you weren't obsessively going through your book still while they were working on it.

And then lastly on my suggestions for if you're going to keep editing while it's away, make sure that you mix in activities for yourself that refill your creative cup around the project, so that you aren't just draining yourself further right before what is probably going to be the hardest part of this whole process, specifically, consuming, processing, and then applying outside feedback. As hard as you might have felt some of these self-editing steps up to this point have been, trying to deal with outside constructive criticism on your book is going to be harder. So, even if you continue tinkering, even if you continue editing while it's away getting that done on it, also revisit the original inspirations, take some time to do a different kind of creativity, whatever you need to bolster yourself in preparation for this next last significant hurdle that we're going to talk about in next week's episode.

Ages: Well, thank you so much for your insight. It has helped me so much, as always.

Rebecca : Delightful, and I am excited to hear what your epiphany was about a lead magnet or novella thing, so I'm sure we will chat after this. And yeah, next week, like I said, we're going to go over best practices and supportive advice for receiving, processing, and implementing outside feedback on your manuscript. For now, I really want to thank everyone following along with this series. If you know any other authors who are nearing the end of their first draft, or struggling with revisions or rewriting their novel, please send them our way. I would love to help more writers understand and finish the process of self-editing. Thank you for joining me today, Agnes. I will see you all next week.

Agnes: And if you happen to be sending your stuff off to a beta reader or are looking for a developmental editor right now, there’s a great one I know that you can find at hartboundediting.com. Thank you again.

Rebecca: Bye.

See you next time!

Formatting & Finding Feedback: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 49

Tue, 09 Dec 2025 23:00:09 GMT

Formatting & Feedback: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript…

Here's the downloadable handout for this episode on considerations for vetting professional editors: https://BookHip.com/RZMSZBP

And the handout on DIY formatting before asking outside readers to go through your piece: https://BookHip.com/TABKCGM

And as mention several times in this episode, here is the link to the Fantasy Virtual Critique Partners group I run where fantasy, sci-fi, and romantacy authors can find other writers to do critique swaps with: https://www.facebook.com/groups/479454803907608

An option for finding beta readers I feel I mentioned too briefly is your own existing fan base. It’s more likely you have one as an established author than as a first-time or newer writer, but I still know folks who started building their online following years in advance of publishing, so you never know. If you have any kind of audience built-up, it can’t hurt to ask if anyone would like to be a beta reader for you. I have friends who are beta readers for massive, bestselling authors, and they all consider it the highest of honors to have that privileged access to their favorite author, and even to have some small input into the series or fictional world they love so much, so by all means present the beta request in similar terms to your own readers.

It’s not something I have personally tried, but you can also try reaching out through other authors you know and recruiting from their beta team(s). It’s unlikely that any one author is writing prolifically to keep beta readers occupied back-to-back, so using beta recruitment as networking with authors whose work is similar enough to yours that the same readers would love both could be a great option to look into.

Lastly and rather importantly, I suggest not using the same outside reader for more than one layer of outside critique. So, don’t use the same person for developmental and line edits, or beta reading and copy edits. You want to get the highest number of FRESH eyes as you can on your book through the pre-publishing process.

Happy editing!

Episode 49 Overview:

Formatting & Finding Feedback

“How and where can I find good early feedback readers? What do I need to do to prepare to have them read my book, and how can I get the most out of the process?”

This episode of the Story Savvy Series , a writer education podcast for fantasy authors, breaks down the difference between a dev edit vs beta read and how to work with critique partners for fiction effectively. You will also learn how to recruit beta readers for writers , prepare your manuscript for feedback , and avoid common red flags in editing services .

Join developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring middle grade fantasy author Agnes Wolfe as they walk through the stages of preparing your book for outside eyes. Whether you're swapping with critique partners or planning to hire a developmental editor, this episode gives you clarity on what kind of feedback you need, what to listen to, what to ignore, and how to find the right outside readers.

In this Episode:

How to format your manuscript for editors and beta readers
Where to find reliable beta readers and critique partners
The difference between beta readers, critique partners, and developmental editors
Why a 4–6 week deadline is ideal for beta feedback, and how to set it clearly
Common pitfalls with feedback readers
How to handle missed deadlines, dropouts, and unhelpful replies

Resources:

Expert Developmental Editing
Agnes Wolfe - agneswolfeauthor.com
Downloadable Handout - https://BookHip.com/RZMSZBP
Fantasy Virtual Critique Partners - https://www.facebook.com/groups/479454803907608
Dragonheart Academy - Dragonheartacademy.com

See you next week for episode 50: Killing Time While Getting Feedback

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 49 Transcript:

Formatting & Finding Feedback

Coming soon! Apologies for the delay. Had to prioritize editing for a client!

How To Get Unstuck: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 48

Tue, 02 Dec 2025 23:00:00 GMT

How To Get Unstuck: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript…

In this episode, I mentioned many other episodes in this series, specifically those I think are topics writers are mostly likely to get stuck on, or those which I feel would also be helpful on this topic:

Episode 1: Starting with Audience

Episode 2: Deciding Genre

Episode 4: The Heart of the Story (including message & theme)

Episode 7: Beginning, Middle & End

Episode 22: Mental Health & Self-Care (for writers)

Episode 46: Revisiting Gaps & Sticking Points

Happy editing!

Episode 48 Overview:

Getting Unstuck

“What if I got stuck on a step in the process? How can I move forward without figuring out an answer or finishing a change I’ll rely on later in self-editing my novel?”

This episode of the Story Savvy Series explores how to define theme and message and tackle many other roadblocks when you're feeling stuck in the revision process. Packed with self-editing tips for writers and practical developmental editing advice , this episode helps you stay productive even when your story structure and editing feel unclear.

Join developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring middle-grade fantasy author Agnes Wolfe as they discuss how to break through blocks during revision. You'll walk away with strategies to keep heading towards the finish line, even when your inner critic, mental load, or plot are trying to hold you back.

In this Episode:

Why “sticking points” happen
Why skipping or half-doing a step can be the right move
Tactics to nudge big moments and character arcs forward
Polishing your manuscript: typos, clarity, and simple formatting checks
When to set a deadline, ask for help, or leave it for beta feedback

Resources:

Hart Bound Developmental Editing
Agnes Wolfe - agneswolfeauthor.com
Dragonheart Academy - Dragonheartacademy.com

See you next week for episode 49: Formatting & Finding Feedback

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 48 Transcript:

How To Get Unstuck

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 48 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great. As an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to.

We have covered so much in this series so far, including last week's episode on getting the most out of your final self-editing full read-through of your manuscript. Today, we are going to talk about getting unstuck if that happens to you anywhere in this process. By the end of this episode, you'll hopefully feel confident either half-assing, skipping, or otherwise powering past any topics that you get stuck on without feeling bad about it, because you really shouldn't have to. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolfe. Hello.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later next year, and also host and founder of Authors Alcove. I'm here today to tackle how to move forward productively if you get hung up on an earlier step in the self-editing process. So, I am so glad that you mentioned at the end of last episode that, um, one of our listeners had brought this up to you, because it's something that I probably could have personally brought up to you, because I do feel a little bit stuck at the moment. And I know it's somewhat in my head and all of that. So, why do you feel this particular episode is important to go into depth in.

Rebecca: I think that this is a great topic because I've heard about this happening to so many authors, I've hit this in my own writing and self-editing, so it’s relevant, and this is kind of the moment where we just talked about final read-through, where folks are probably the most stressed about this, if they're going to be. It can be really easy to fall into feeling like we have to get every step, or one particular step done before we can go on to do another. Especially if the step that we are stuck on seems to feed into future decisions or future steps pretty heavily. The listener that I mentioned earlier who asked for this topic, and I'm so glad that they did, specifically mentioned that they were stuck on figuring out their audience, or specifically, their single audience member that they were telling their story to, and asked if we could address that, and what to do in that position.

Agnes: So, what would be your answer to them in that particular situation?

Rebecca: I would suggest that you pick somebody you know well and just run with that.it doesn't have to even necessarily be accurate, but having anyone in mind, that you're telling the story to is better than nobody, by a long shot. So, if you are stuck on your audience, go ahead and just say, my mom. Or, my best friend from high school, who I haven't seen in a decade because she used to read romance. Having anyone in that metaphorical position of sitting across the table from you, going through these edits, is something. If you don't want to do anything to come up with an audience member, then what I recommend doing is putting yourself in that position as much as you can. So instead of saying, I'm writing this story for nobody, for the universe, for the empty void of space, at least decide that you're writing it for yourself, and you are your own target audience. That's what I'd recommend for that specific situation.

Agnes: So, I know that's one example. What are some other common places you feel like authors get stuck?

Rebecca: I think it's most likely that authors are going to get stuck on the early topics from this series, where we were making big story decisions about massive elements that affect the whole story. So the big likely culprits are probably picking or clarifying or getting into a niche genre, really trying to define or deliver your message or theme, what the heart of your story is can be a little bit difficult to really define or use, so you might be stuck on that. You might get stuck on the big moments in the story, like the midpoint or the climax, or on certain aspects of trying to get your protagonist or your antagonist’s character arcs squared away nicely. I, in my experience, am more likely to get stuck on big things that feel overwhelming or intimidating. And less likely to get stuck on things like… Am I using all of the senses? Am I overusing non-verbal communication? Things like that.

Agnes: So, could you give us just a little advice on getting unstuck with each of these examples?

Rebecca: I can try. So, the first example that I mentioned was genre. And this is kind of a similar answer to audience, but from a different approach. With genre, I think that you kind of need to step back even further and decide if you are writing genre fiction. Because if you're not, that's a valid choice to make. This series is geared towards genre fiction, so a lot of the advice is specific for genre fiction.

But if that's not you, fine. Take the advice that feels applicable and helpful and ignore the rest. If you are writing genre fiction, but you're still really stuck on this genre question, go broader. So, just naming that you're writing genre fiction, that's a step. Don't beat yourself up if that's the only step that you can get to right now. Editors, beta readers, can all help with that down the road. But, I do recommend going back to that episode on genre and looking at it, listening through it again, just from that very high-level perspective of… What am I delivering the most in this story? Am I delivering a romantic feeling. Am I delivering a sense of justice? Am I delivering edge-of-your-seat horror novel kind of anticipation and strain. And from that question of what the story is delivering, just do your best to pair it to a genre that seems realistic. And as you move forward, having gotten unstuck off of that, you can, over time, find a new genre term that you hadn't heard before and go, oh, that's perfect, or end up researching comp titles, and you see one of them is shelved in a sub-sub-sub category, that's exactly what your book is, and you didn't even know that was an option. So, start broad, move forward, narrow down as you go along. The second example that I brought up in my list is message or theme. And this is one I suggest skipping entirely if you're stuck on it. As I mentioned in the episode kind of on that topic, so many authors out there don't care about message or theme, and they don't do anything intentional with it, and there's even best-selling masterwork authors out there who kind of dismiss or poo-poo the entire idea. So if you're stuck on message and theme, set it aside, you kind of really don't need to look at that at all, just keep moving forward.

Very similarly to that, the next thing on the list is the heart of your story. And the thing is, even if you can't articulate a heart of your story for yourself, it's there. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a story. Otherwise, you wouldn't have come up with the idea, otherwise, you wouldn't have had anywhere to go with this story. So, again, if you're stuck on that one, maybe try backing off, maybe try approaching it from a different mindset, maybe start with the emotion and then try to describe what happens around it. But don't get stuck on it. And if, at the end of the day, you have nothing to show for that whole episode, that whole step? Ignore it, move on.

From there, the other things that I listed are a bit more…I'll say necessary, I try to avoid absolutes, but you kind of do need to have a midpoint in your book, and you do kind of need to have a climax, especially if it's genre fiction. So, what I recommend here is narrowing down on that event and just reading through it maybe 3 to 5 times, just that one scene, over and over and over. And then, take a step back and look at your list of chapters to help your brain sort of conceptualize of the whole story, and see if any inspiration comes up. Try going and doing chores, or going on a drive, whatever kind of helps your brain get in that more flow state kind of headspace, and see if anything comes up. If it doesn't, but you know that there's something there that is sticky, that is still in need of more correction or improvement, make a note of it. And when you get outside feedback for the first time, be that a dev editor, a critique partner, beta readers, mention that to them, which we'll get to in a whole episode in much more depth, but remember that there was a point there that needs fixing, and ask for help in figuring out what it is that you're not being able to see there from somebody else. The idea of the character arc issues is pretty much the same thing. Sit with it, close your eyes, trying to imagine yourself in this character's shoes. Maybe go read something else and see if you get inspiration for a certain character dynamic or interaction. And if you're not getting anything out of that, if you're still just stuck, stuck, stuck on this, write it down as clearly as you can of, hey, I am stuck on my antagonist’s speech in praise of the villain in the build-up to the climax. So that when you can come back to it, or when you're getting outside feedback, or when something else finally clicks, somewhere else in the story, and it opens up a new opportunity, you’re not going to forget that you needed to address that. And in all of this, I'm going to refer everyone back to the episode that we did on revisiting gaps and sticking points, there's a lot of overlap here. So, I hope that that answers all of those questions.

Agnes: So, I know me and my husband actually were talking about just how I feel kind of stuck at the moment. So, I just want to ask, what if it's not one of those things? What is some more general advice for getting unstuck from other, less specific topics?

Rebecca: Regardless of what the specific hang-up or sticking point is for you as an individual, for any listeners, you REALLY can and should completely skip something, or do a half-assed job on it if you can't get through it the way that you want to get through it. I realize that the term “half-assing it” can seem harsh, and for perfectionists, can kind of trigger us a little bit. So, let me explain that a little bit more. One of the best pieces of advice that I have ever gotten for my personal life, like, not even just writing advice, is, “if something is worth doing, it is worth doing poorly.” If taking a shower every single day is worth doing, then it's worth doing without full skin routine, without washing your hair. It's worth doing kind of shittily, if it's worth doing at all. And that applies to self-editing or writing of any other kind. If it is worth getting your climax in good shape and so that it's all one coherent, big, impressive event, then it's worth doing that even if you're kind of bad at it. So, that mindset can be helpful. And if it's not, or if it doesn't apply or feel helpful to a specific instance where you're feeling stuck, scrap it. Absolutely give yourself permission to go, you know what? I'm not getting to this. I need to move on. And you've mentioned several times in this podcast that that's essentially where you got before giving your manuscript to me. You wanted to do more on it, but you were feeling stuck, and you made that call of, “Eh, fuck it. I'm going to send it to her anyway,” and it worked out great, it worked out fine. I don't think that there was any significant downside to that. So bearing that fuck-it mindset in mind can be helpful. Um, I will also refer back to what I've mentioned earlier about anything is better than nothing. If you want to do one, you know, one pass through of these two scenes that have issues, and just do what you can. in a day, or in an hour, that’s better than nothing. If you can't get your antagonist in great shape, improve him a little bit. Make her just one degree more interesting or evil or whatever. And then related to that, try setting yourself a deadline. So, tell yourself, okay, today I've got 2 hours to work on self-editing, just today, I'm going to spend all of those 2 hours going through and trying to clean up this plot thread that got confusing. And then tomorrow, I can stop thinking about it because I've done what I can, that's enough, I need to move forward.

Agnes: So I imagine I'm not the only person like this, but what if a writer gets stuck on something else entirely, especially if it's really vague, like just not liking the story they wrote? That’s not my case. Or not wanting to show it to anyone else—which might be a little bit—or any other form of feeling discouraged or stuck, and maybe even in a mental health sort of way. Do you have any recommendations there?

Rebecca: Yeah, first of all, I'd send people back to the episode we did just on mental health. I think there's still value there, and I'll try not to repeat myself too much. If you're feeling resistance, which it sounds like you're talking about there, more than being stuck on a particular step in a process, I suggest trying to talk through it with somebody else. Maybe this is posting in a group to a bunch of strangers who are also writers and asking for advice. Maybe this is talking to a friend or a family member, or a therapist. Anything like that, talking through it and getting even a little bit of that sort of sounding board dynamic going on around it can be very, very helpful. If you don't want to actually rope anybody else into it, journaling through that resistance, through that stuckness, or just pacing around your house ranting about it to yourself, which is kind of what I do, can be very helpful, because again, it just gets things moving. And you go from feeling like you're up against this wall with this resistance and stuckness, and just talking about it can just move things a little bit and allow things to start flowing again, so journaling, talking to yourself out loud, talking to your pets, whatever the case may be, can be helpful as well. And then the last piece of advice that I have on this is, try pretending that you are somebody else as you approach these edits. I feel like it's pretty cliche that people talk about self-editor… or sorry, self-publishing authors in particular needing to wear multiple hats. You have the creative author hat, and then you also have to be able to “put on” your editor hat to have this brain shift to then go into that. So, if you're really stuck, feeling resistance, try sitting down in front of your manuscript and telling yourself for a moment, okay, I am somebody else, and you can give them a name, it can be somebody real you know, it can be a well-respected editor you've heard of or read their book. Sit down, tell yourself, I am so-and-so, how would I, this other person, deal with this? And sometimes you'll get a little bit of that movement, sometimes you'll find a little bit of inspiration, and sometimes just getting out of your own emotional attachment to whatever is happening there can also be very helpful.

Agnes: So, I know you're also a writer, not just a developmental editor, so I'm going to ask you, yourself, do you get stuck in your own writing, or actually maybe even your editing projects. And if so, on what most of the time, and how do you personally forge through?

Rebecca : I definitely get most stuck in my general process in that moment between finishing all of my plotting and outlining and starting drafting. And that's because the former is my favorite part of the process, and the latter is my least favorite. So that is definitely where I get stuck, and how I typically get unstuck from that is just going back to my notes on the climax, because that's usually where a story idea starts for me, and I'm really excited to eventually get there. And just reminding myself, okay, yes, I'm going to have to write 60,000 words to get to the climax scene, but I love this idea so much that it's worth it to get there. As far as editing specific topics go, I tend to get the most stuck in self-editing sort of around that cusp between looking at plot, character, and worldbuilding, and moving into the polishing stages. That's a big reason why we ended up doing a break week at that cusp in this series. And that is because, in my own work and my own personality, when I'm hitting that moment, I'm moving away from feeling like I'm a storyteller and moving into feeling like I'm doing a repetitive, monotonous, boring grind on my book. So, how I typically try to break through that is that is the point in my own process where I will give myself a deadline. So, that is where I will contact a beta reader, or one of my groups for that, or book in a developmental editor. Something like that, usually 2 or 3 months out, so that I know that that part of the process that I find so much more arduous and more likely to get stuck on is finite. That makes a big difference for me, and to be honest, the adrenaline and stress of knowing, “oh my god, I need to get this done before the deadline” is very helpful in breaking me past that and forcing me to move forward as well. So, I would love to ask you, you’re also a writer, and we've talked about a lot of this stuff. I've worked on your book. Where do you feel like you get stuck on this topic, or any other topic, and how do you typically try to move forward through that?

Agnes: I think that I have a lot of imposter syndrome, so I think that I get stuck especially when I start to feel like I'm getting close to finishing something in it, and then I start being like, “I have all this self-doubt,” and then I can't do anything. Fortunately, I have this amazing husband who is— He gives the best advice, and he's not soft about it. He's blunt, which is what I need. I think one of the things that I have found is just do anything. And so I literally will just start reading the chapter, or anything, just to try to get through, and not necessarily focus on anything in particular. And that will usually help me have my creative energy. Or, as funny as this is, I actually have certain podcasts that I will put on that help me with my creative energy, because they talk about specific types of editing. And usually it starts getting me daydreaming and that sort of thing. But those are the basic things. It's just making sure I'm actually doing something going forward, not just busy work, like, “oh, I'm going to correct all the punctuation,” which I'm going to be changing all because I'm going to be changing other things later down. I think that that's kind of a pointless thing for me, and I used to try to do that, but that one's not really moving forward because it's all going to change in the end, so…

Rebecca: Sure.

Agnes: Okay, so wrapping up, I do have one last question. If we do end up skipping or half-assing something we were stuck on in order to move forward and finish, when do you think we should come back to it? If at all.

Rebecca: I think that setting it aside permanently is okay, if that's the choice that you want to make, if that's what feels right. I would recommend giving it a solid couple of weeks before coming back to it, at a minimum, essentially. You want to get past the larger patch of resistance before you try coming back to that sort of core moment of it. So, a lot of this might end up being that you don't come back to it until you're until you're implementing the feedback that you get from outside readers. So, let's go back to our audience member's example of, I'm stuck on audience. I don't know who my audience is. It's totally fine to set that aside for, whatever, 40-ish episodes of this series, and wait until you've already gotten your beta feedback and your dev feedback, which we're ging to do an episode on accepting and implementing, and at that stage, hopefully, there's something in this outside feedback that will unblock that for you. So, I don't recommend trying to come back to things, especially if they were big or really, really stalled you out, until you've reached that done marker of handing it off to the beta readers and probably waiting until you've gotten that feedback from them.

Agnes: Well, thank you so much for your insight. It has been helpful, as always. Thank you.

Rebecca: delightful. And yes, next week we will go over formatting, finding feedback readers, and how to set yourself up for success when sending your WIP out to them. For now, I would really like to thank everyone who follows along with this series, and especially the audience member who gave us this week's topic. If you know any authors or writers who are nearing the end of their first draft or struggling with revising or rewriting their novel, please send them our way, or send this podcast to them. The more authors that we can help, not only understand this process, but reach the end of it feeling very confident in their work, the better. Thank you, Agnes. I will see you all next week.

Agnes: Thank you. Bye-bye.

See you next time!

Last Read Before Outside Feedback: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 47

Tue, 25 Nov 2025 23:00:03 GMT

Final Read-Through: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript…

Additional thoughts on removing extra or erroneous blank lines: Double-spaced lines should not be done with the tab/return keys. If you, when drafting or earlier in editing, had introduced a lot of blank lines with a goal of double spaced lines, you still need to take those back out. Then, when you’re ready to format, simply select all and set the formatting rules to double spaced lines within the settings of the document, rather than manually.

Lastly, the other episode I referenced in the transcript below can be found here:

Episode 37: Handling Jumps in Time, Place, & POV

Happy editing!

Episode 47 Overview:

Last Read Before Outside Feedback

“How can I get the most out of my final self-editing full read-through of my book before getting outside feedback? What would I be watching for, and what are some best practices around it?

This episode of the Story Savvy Series , a podcast for fantasy authors , dives into improving reader clarity and editing repetitive words through a strategic final read-through. Learn how to catch typos in fiction , polish your manuscript, and do everything else needed for beta reader prep . Rebecca shares self editing tips for writers that will help you turn your good story into a great one.

Join developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring middle grade fantasy author Agnes Wolfe as they walk through how to tackle the final read-through of your manuscript. From formatting fixes to chapter polish, they break down what to do—and what to avoid—before handing your story off for outside feedback.

In this Episode:

What makes the final read-through different
Key formatting issues you must fix manually
Tools and strategies for catching typos and grammar mistakes
When to stop revising AND when to keep going
Ways to change how you “see” your draft

Resources:

Hart Bound Developmental Editing
Agnes Wolfe - agneswolfeauthor.com
Dragonheart Academy - Dragonheartacademy.com

See you next week for episode 48: How To Get Unstuck!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 47 Transcript:

Last Read Before Outside Feedback

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 47 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great, as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We have covered a bunch in this series so far, including last week's episode on Part 1 of Final Checks, specifically, revisiting gaps and sticking points. Today, we're going to do part two and discuss what to watch for and what to do with our final read-through of a manuscript. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully feel confident reading through your story critically one last time to prepare to get outside feedback. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolff. Hello.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle-grade fantasy later this year, and also the host and founder of Author's Alcove. I'm here today to do part two of the final checks and discuss what to watch for and do with your final read-through. Okay, so I have already, and I'm sure everybody else at this point has read through their manuscripts who knows how many times, is it really important to go through it this one last time?

Rebecca: I think so, and specifically, I think that it's important to do so giving yourself permission, or taking my permission, to pay attention to everything. And just read through, paying attention to the story, and catch whatever you can catch. In earlier steps in this series, I recommend watching for one layer of the story at a time, because you want to tackle one specific topic completely. This is your chance to go through and go, “Oh, I forgot to, you know, fix this genre moment,” and “oh, I wanted to tweak this line about her character arc.” It's your chance to go through and just expand your mindset around the story and try to catch all of the last-minute things. And then going off of that a little bit, there are a number of very specific considerations that you want to bear in mind when you're doing this final read.

Agnes : Like what?

Rebecca: So, essentially, like I mentioned already, anything that you missed on a previous editing round, but also, very specifically, you want to look for any formatting issues to fix which you can't do a search and replace or a select all to do. And, also very importantly, you want to make sure that it is always clear who says or does each moment in the story. And then lastly on the list of goals for this read-through, this is where you want to really pay attention and try to catch the typos, missing words, added words, incorrectly autocorrected words, which I see in my own work a fair bit, issues with grammar, or punctuation, and all of the other copy-editing level issues to fix.

Agnes: Is that it? [both laughing]

Rebecca: Yes, that's it.

Agnes : Are we really going to watch, or trying to watch out for all of those and fix all of those in one read-through?

Rebecca: It's kind of up to you. You don't want to put too much emphasis on the polishing until after you've done these sort of structural feedback steps that we're going to be talking about in previous episodes, and I know that sounds contradictory to what I've said in previous episodes, but, this is a structural self-editing series, so we are going to be putting a lot more emphasis on structure than polishing. However, some degree of polishing does need to be done. So, if you're like me, and you tend to naturally drift in the direction of putting more emphasis on structural and less on polishing, then yeah, one final read-through is probably fine for your goals and your personality and where the story's at. If you're the kind of person who enjoys doing many, many read-throughs and really tweaking the language and the wording and the prose and all of that, it might well be more than that. It is pretty much entirely up to you.

Agnes : So, I just want to ask about something that you previously mentioned, and it's with the copy-editing level stuff, like typos and missing words. Are we just watching out for what we can personally catch? Even if we're going to be sending it off to a copy editor later.

Rebecca: So, I'm definitely the kind of person who struggles to catch these things on my own, so if any of our listeners are also that kind of person, I totally get it. You do want to catch what you can on your own, but know that's not the only thing that you should be doing here. This is the stage where I do suggest copy and pasting each chapter one at a time into some sort of grammar spelling checker. And I've mentioned it before, I personally recommend ProWritingAid. But if you don't want to pay for that, if you don't like that particular platform, what I recommend for catching spell and grammar, punctuation, those kind of things, is to paste that chapter into at least 3 different word processors with some sort of built-in checker. So that might be Microsoft Word and Google Docs, and maybe Gmail, or any sort of free online Hemingway, AutoCrit, anything like that. Why I suggest doing it in 3 different programs is each of them is going to have slightly different feedback. I just know, for example, Google Docs and Microsoft Word have very different ideas about comma usage. So, when you're getting more than one program to check it, you're more likely to get different aspects checked, and have different opinions on where you could or could not put commas to be correct. And I've also noticed that when my whole book is in one document, it's more likely that things are going to get missed. So, if I copy and paste out, words that previously looked fine are suddenly going to have that red underline, and I need to fix it. So, going through chapter by chapter as you're doing the read to get outside feedback, specifically assistive AI feedback, on the spelling and grammar is very, very helpful at this stage.

Agnes: So, I have to laugh about the comma thing, because I am terrible at commas. Like, I know the rules, so when I actually go to proofread it, I can do that. But I did find that—because I do copy and paste mine to several different documents, because I want it saved in several different documents—I do find it interesting, I will correct a comma here, and then I’ll go in and be like, “Hey, it's making me take it out!” And so I'm like, okay, which one is it? And then I have to think about it for myself. But anyway, so I think it's funny, it makes me feel less bad about being bad with commas, because even word processors can't agree.

Rebecca: Same, yep.

Agnes: Okay, but I did want to ask about something else that you mentioned earlier, and that's formatting issues that we necessarily can't search for. What are your thoughts on that?

Rebecca: We are going to do an episode that really covers formatting more specifically, but there are some formatting things that you really have to read through in order to catch them or see them or fix them. So, the shortlist here that I suggest you keep an eye out for—and educate yourself on more if needed, I certainly had to learn about these things as I was writing my first novel and editing it—are, number one, is there always a paragraph break between two avatars speaking? If not, you need to add one in. Or, if you have too many paragraph breaks, where it's just one person doing an acting, you might need to remove some of those and have larger paragraphs for it to look right and flow right and things like that. Number two on the formatting list would be, make sure that you're adding a page break, not just a paragraph break, before every chapter header. This is for clarity, this is for cleanliness, and your readers will have an easier time noticing when a chapter change happens if you do that. Number 3 is, make sure that all of your scene breaks are marked and formatted correctly. I feel like I've already done an episode on this, but I can't really pull it up in my head, so make sure that it's 3 asterisks, center aligned, with a blank line above and below it. Number 4 on the list, and very much related to that, you need to remove any erroneous blank lines. Manuscripts being sent off to other people should not have extra blank lines between regular paragraphs. You can use it occasionally, so maybe once or twice a chapter as a soft scene break. We did that whole episode on that. But in general, you do not want a blank line in between paragraphs, and that might be a lot of this pass of going through and just deleting all of those blank lines.

Number 5 would be, make sure that all of your dialogue is in quotations. So, it has opening quotations at the beginning and closing quotations after the punctuation at the end, in most cases. And then last on my list here is, make sure that all of your internal thoughts, or internal dialogue, are italicized, not in quotations, and are phrased in first person and present tense as you're reading through.

Agnes: I feel like it's important to go over this, just because you've mentioned it several times, and so I want to go a little bit more in depth, but, one of the things that you said to watch for in our final read is to make sure it's always clear who is speaking or doing something. First, can you just clarify what exactly that means, and just kind of go a little bit more in-depth from what you already said?

Rebecca: Yes, so this connects back to the other point I made about making sure that each character has their own paragraph. If you're trying to show multiple characters speaking or doing things within one paragraph, it can be confusing about which character is saying and doing the thing, but even when you do have the paragraphs formatted correctly, where, let's say, Kate does this paragraph, and then Jimmy does that paragraph, and then so on and so forth, it still can be important to make sure that in this paragraph where Kate is speaking and doing things, her name appears in a way that makes it clear that she is the one speaking or taking an action. And this is intuitive for most authors. You probably don't need to stress about this. However, when you're reading through, just bear that in mind, and if you read a paragraph and you're like, “You know what? If I had written this, I'm not sure it would be clear who said this,” go ahead and just use a dialogue tag, use an action tag, use a description, something. to make it clear, hey, this passage is about this person, their words, and what they are doing.

Agnes: So, I know myself, I'm not quite to this stage, but I have a feeling that I will probably spend way too much time on this final read-through. So how long does this step usually take, or how long do you think it should normally take the average writer, and at what point should we just say, enough is enough, or dial back how much effort we are putting into it? Because I know that we could spend a lifetime doing this part.

Rebecca: Absolutely, and some writers choose to, and that's their choice to make. I think that… So, for myself, my final read usually takes about a week. But I work pretty quickly, so that's not going to be true for everyone. I think that for most authors saying that you have a month to do this final read-through would seem reasonable, again, just on average. And I think that's a great question to ask. At what point do you decide that you've gone past reasonable length or time or effort for this? The answer is essentially, when it starts either bogging you down, when it starts removing your motivation, your forward momentum, when it starts feeling like there's too long of a gap between issues that you're catching, so you have to read 5 chapters before you find another typo kind of thing. There's a whole myriad of different lines that you can draw for yourself. But I do very much recommend that you do draw a line for yourself. So, maybe for an individual, trying to watch these different layers of catching things you missed from previous rounds of editing, formatting, and speaker clarity trying to do all three is too much for one read-through, so maybe this does end up being three different final read-throughs for you. That's totally your call. And doing it that way might speed up the individual reads, but together, that might make it take 2 months, so I don't really have a concrete answer on this. But I do think that it is very valuable to think about, and make a call on for yourself when it feels like you need to.

Agnes: I don't mean to be very vague with this, but do you have any more advice or thoughts on this topic that you wanted to share that maybe I've missed?

Rebecca: Yeah. This stage in the self-editing process, as you're nearing the end and solidly into the polishing stages of self-editing, is where I do actually recommend printing out your full manuscript if you haven't done so already, and doing some markups with a pen, trying to consume it in that different way. Similarly, just do anything else that you can think of to really change the tangible aspects of how you are consuming your own writing. This could be just changing your font and type color or size, this could be changing your formatting, especially if you're having to do a lot of fixing around your formatting. That will change how it looks, and therefore change slightly how you perceive it. You can also just try changing what device you're reading it on. If you're typically working on your laptop, export it and try reading it on your phone, or a tablet, or your Kindle, something like that. And then lastly, If you haven't done audio up to this point, despite what a proponent of that I am, I suggest that at this point, this is where you bite the bullet and you try doing audio, because, again, consuming your story through your ears versus your eyes is going to be a big change in how your brain processes it, and will allow you to catch issues that you've missed a hundred times before now. One other fun trick that I'll mention right here for doing this last read polishing check is try reading your book backwards. Not word by word, that would be crazy-making, but paragraph by paragraph, starting at the end and working your way back up. The reason that this can be really helpful, at least in my experience, and I did pick this advice up from I think it was somebody I interviewed on this podcast last year, is that it helps break you out of the self-hypnosis of knowing what's coming next. When you're reading through in the order that you planned it and wrote it and have edited it dozens of times, your brain is predicting, and sometimes that prediction can prevent you from seeing the reality, because you're seeing what you expect, not what's there. When you try reading paragraph by paragraph backwards, it breaks that expectation and that pattern, and it can allow you to read your own work much more objectively, which is very helpful here.

Agnes: So, this may be a silly question, and I do want to just wrap up. This will be our last question. But do you recommend doing anything specifically at the end of the final read-through for self-editing?

Rebecca: Yes, celebrate. [both laughing] This is you being done with the arduous, overwhelming process of self-editing, so like I recommended you do when you finish drafting and break week, whatever. Celebrate. When you finish this book, when you get to the end, go out for drinks, make a post on social media, whatever celebrating means to you, do a little bit of, I did it, oh, I did it, oh, I did it, oh, I did it—and I say that because I failed to on my first couple of books and I regret that, because I never got the emotional reward for having gone through all of that, when all it would have taken is an hour of me choosing that option and telling myself, we're going to celebrate now. So, I very strongly recommend that.

Agnes : Well, thank you so much for your insight. It has helped me so much. Thank you.

Rebecca: Absolutely. Next week, we are going to do an audience requested episode for the first time and talk through some ways to get unstuck if you get hung up on an earlier step in this series or whatever your self-editing process is. For now, I want to wish all of our listeners a very happy Thanksgiving. I’m so incredibly grateful for everyone who listens in, comments, reaches out about their own self-editing adventures, and everything like that. I hope that you all have a fantastic holiday, and that your food comas are delightful. And see you all next week!

Agnes: Thank you so much!

See you next time!

Revisiting Gaps & Sticking Points: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 46

Tue, 18 Nov 2025 23:00:02 GMT

Revisiting Gaps & Sticking Points: After-episode thoughts, overview, & transcript…

There are absolutely words out there containing the letter combination ‘ASD’. I just have yet to use any of them in my own writing, let alone in all caps, hence why I mention using that as an easily searchable marker to come back to. Please forgive my hyperbole around this in the episode; what I meant to say was that there weren’t any common-use words with that combo I’d run across in writing fiction.

In case it’s helpful, here is the full list of ways I’ve seen writers use to mark things they intended to come back to later. If you don’t have a consistent marker you use every time, it may be worth your time to search all of these possibilities to check if there are any results worth checking on today’s topic:

Come back to

Fill in later

To be determined

TBD

( )

[ ]

Lastly, the other episodes I reference in the transcript below can be found here:

Episode 43: Name Intros & Choices

Episode 44: Name Consistency & Regulation

Happy editing!

Episode 46 Overview:

Revisiting Gaps & Sticking Points

“Have I filled in anything that I said I’d come back to later? And are there any other gaps or sticking points I need to revisit?”

This episode of the Story Savvy Series , a practical writing craft podcast , explores final checks for manuscripts to help you polish your draft before sending it out. Learn tips on editing repetitive words , avoiding head-hopping , and for beta reader prep while confidently polishing your manuscript . Packed with self-editing tips for writers , developmental editing advice , and tools for stronger fantasy novel editing , this episode helps you wrap up your final-pass revisions.

Join developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell [hartboundediting.com] and aspiring fantasy author Agnes Wolfe [agneswolfeauthor.com] as they guide you through this week’s topic. Discover how to smooth out placeholders, clean up structure, and prepare your pages for outside feedback with confidence.

In this Episode:

Final checks: fill gaps, resolve placeholders (_/TK/TBD), and refine line-level polish
Reliable flagging methods
Immediate wins that improve readability and presentation
How much to tidy before sending to betas and/or a dev editor
What to do when choices remain open and how to communicate that
Clear signs that it’s time to call the edit done

Resources:

Expert Developmental Editing
Dragonheart Academy - Dragonheartacademy.com

See you next week for episode 47: Last Read Before Outside Feedback

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 46 Transcript:

Revisiting Gaps & Sticking Points

Rebecca Harwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 46 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great. As an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We have covered so much in this series so far, including last week's episode on improving nonverbal communication in fiction. Today, we are going to start talking about doing final checks on our manuscripts. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully be able to do some quick, easy, and very visible polishing to your book. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my good friend and co-host, Agnes Wolf. Hello.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle-grade fantasy later next year, and also the host and founder of Authors Alcove. I'm here today to tackle revisiting gaps and sticking points at the very end of self-editing. One of my favorite questions to ask first is to have you define what exactly we are talking about this week. So, I know we're talking about revisiting the gaps and sticking points in our work. What exactly are you referring to here?

Rebecca: So, pretty much any version of to be determined, or to come. I've seen those in abbreviated in manuscripts of TBD, TK, whatever. We're also talking about anything you told yourself that you would come back to and figure out later, make a decision on later, move later, whatever that situation is. And, unrelated to that but still within this episode, we are also going to talk about doing final checks on making sure that your chapters are in order and otherwise handled correctly.

Agnes: So, isn't the point of getting outside readers like a developmental editor or beta readers, basically to have them do those final checks for us? I've probably asked this question before, but why are we bothering with so much polish before getting even just casual feedback?

Rebecca: This has a couple of different answers. One is that you want to get the most out of any paid editing services that you can. Which means you want to do what you can on your own first, so that a paid editor, be that developmental or line or anything else, can only help you with the stuff that you need their help with, that you can't see on your own or figure out an answer to on your own. So, the better shape the manuscript is, within reason, before sending it to an editor, it's more likely that they can help you with the really deep stuff that you need the help with. The other consideration here, particularly for beta readers or alpha readers or something more casual, is that these readers are likely to eventually keep talking about your book. So, if you have a beta reader who gets an absolute disaster, if your book comes up after you've done the rest of the polishing, and you've published, and fix all of the issues, they're still gonna essentially remember the book as being really, really messy, and because they're not professionals, they may just go around talking about it in those terms without fully acknowledging that you've fixed all of those problems after they read it. So, it's not a bad idea at all to just give even your feedback readers early on in the process as good an impression as you can, for those reasons.

Agnes: That makes a lot of sense. I know that I had you do it very early on in the process. And I think that there is some worth in that as well, but I definitely see what you're saying as well. So, a few weeks ago, I was talking about how I created a race of elves in my book that I was still working out a name for the race. I forgot to put that into my book before I sent it off to you, and I know that was actually a source of confusion for you as you were reading. You're like, who is this person, and why are they different, and this does not make sense. So you knew that they were not human, yet they were very humanoid, and you had a lot of questions and feedback on that. Are there things I could have done knowing I did not yet have a name for that race of elf that would have made it more easy to come back to and fill in later?

Rebecca: I recommend that everyone pick a very specific symbol or phrase or something that they try to always religiously used to mark anything that they're gonna come back to. In my case, it's an all-caps ASD. It's super quick and easy for me to type on my keyboard, and also, that doesn't appear in any words in the English language that I have found so far. So, when I get to this stage in my polishing, all I have to do is search ASD, and I will find every single place that I'd ever flagged for coming back to. You can use anything that you want. I've seen people use hashtags or asterisks, or, like I said, TBD, TK. Just make sure that when you search it, you're only going to find the spots that you flagged for this reason, And that all of the spots that you, like with your elves, decided that you would come back to later and figure out, are flagged with the same thing. It's all about consistency. Beyond that, I recommend also having some sort of editing notes off to the side, and this has come up in pretty much all of the episodes. I like having a workspace, writing workspace, where you can run through ideas, you can brainstorm all of these lists, you can keep track of your checklists, whatever that case might be. And in those notes, at any stage in the self-editing process, when you find a moment that you're like, you know what? I can't make that decision right now, or I feel overwhelmed, I need to move on, I'm stuck, I need to move on, whatever the case is. Make a note, market the same way you would in the manuscript, and just have it written down somewhere else as well of, I still need to come up with a name for this race, or I still need to figure out what kind of car they're driving in this scene. That sort of thing.

Agnes: So, what are some common gaps that people often forget to go back to in these later rounds of edits? Aside from what I just already mentioned.

Rebecca: Sure. I most often see names that are like, oh, this is Jake, and then where the last name would be, it's just in brackets, “decide later.” So make sure that you fully decided on any names like that. Occasionally, there will be a moment in a scene where, again, it's often in brackets or parentheses, where it just says, I need to figure out how they get to this location, or I haven't figured out how to end this conversation kind of thing. That's really the most common that I've seen, but it's a very individual question, because each individual writer is going to have their own strengths and weaknesses, and they're going to have their own individual things where they are really confident making certain decisions. I know authors who, they have names, really cool, unique, inventive names for their entire cast before they ever start writing. That is not me. And then there are other authors who absolutely know their plot, start to finish, there are no gaps in the scenes, everything flows really nicely, but all of their names are essentially placeholders, and when they go back to do something more with that, they will occasionally miss them, like we've talked about in previous episodes. So, there are some commonalities, but it's important to sort of keep an eye out and learn what your own are to check in future.

Agnes: So, what if I know there's a certain thing I still haven't decided on, like I had just described a couple questions ago, which I just can't make up my mind about before getting an editor or beta reader, so I have not yet filled it up. How should I handle that next time?

Rebecca: I recommend, first of all, just doing what you can, but it is okay if there's something where you're just like, you know what? I don't know how to end this scene, but that is a great thing to specifically ask your developmental editor or your beta readers to watch out for and help you with. That can be really, really helpful. The important part is that you remember to mention it to them ahead of time. So that they don't get there and go, what's happening? If you can just keep track of what those things are that you just cannot decide, or cannot get past a hurdle on before getting outside feedback. Great. Just write it down. present that to that outside reader and say, hey, here's where I'm at, and be very clear about whether you want help from them on it or whether you want them to just ignore it and you will deal with it yourself later, which I have seen as a dev editor, and I'm always happy to accommodate.

Agnes: So, I know another issue that I had in the version that I had sent you was that my chapter numbers were a mess. Like, I think sometimes I wrote chapter 10, and then I'd write chapter 1-1, and sometimes I'd go to Chapter 13 because I deleted an entire chapter, and I didn't double-check those sort of things. Do you have any foolproof ways to make sure that before I send it off to my next reader, that I have made sure that all of those are correct and consistent?

Rebecca: Again, I think that using consistent terminology can be very helpful. So, for myself, I just make sure that every chapter heading has “chapter something.” And yeah, sometimes when I'm drafting, one might be chapter 1-3, and then the next one will be chapter 14 spelled out. But the important part is that the heading of every single chapter has the word chapter in it. So then, when I'm doing my polishing at this stage, I've usually exported my manuscript to Microsoft Word at this point, and I will just put the word chapter into the search bar. And occasionally, I'll have a character talking about, oh, well, in that chapter of my life, and that'll be a false flag, but I can just get past those. And I go through, just clicking through, and I make sure, just visually, does this look right, and is it in order? So, I will put chapter in there, and I'll click next. Okay, Chapter 1. Spelled out. Perfect. Next. Chapter 2 is spelled out, and I just click through visually checking and counting up 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 in my head, and I usually do that twice, because the first time I'm looking for whether I'm using numerals or spelling it out, and sometimes if I'll leave, oh, this chapter is this many word counts, and I need to delete that. And then on my second round, I'm really just counting in my head, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, to make sure that I don't have duplicates, or missing any numbers like that. It's pretty quick and easy, it takes under an hour, and it can make a big difference in how a casual feedback reader perceives it, and it's very helpful to a developmental editor, because I'm often giving feedback on hey, these are my thoughts for Chapter 10, and then these are my thoughts for Chapter 11. And if that then skips chapter 15, I have to mention that in the notes, and it can be hard to follow where I'm talking about, that kind of thing.

Agnes: Makes sense. What about those things—I know that we can do TK, or you did ASD, or asterisks—but how are we supposed to remember everything we intended to come back to, especially if we do not have those TK, asterisk, whatever?

Rebecca: Yeah. Again, make lists. When you encounter these earlier in the editing process, if you can, at this stage in the process, obviously this is a little late to mention it, so for the next book, bear that in mind. But also, you can just re-read through whatever editing notes you already have from earlier stages in this process. And just see if something jogs your memory of, alright, well, I've got a note here about how they sail from this continent to the other one. Oh, wait, no, I kind of remember, I needed to actually, like, write out the scene where they're getting on the boat. Let me go do that paragraph really fast. So, read through, see if anything jogs. Remember, you can try just skimming through your table of contents, your list of chapter titles or numbers, see if anything jogs your memory there. But also try brainstorming all of the different ways that you might have flagged something that you need to come back to. If you were to, in this moment right now, flag something, what would you write down? Okay, well, if you couldn't write that, what would you write down instead? And go search those. So maybe it was an underscore, maybe it was brackets, maybe it was parentheses, maybe it was asterisks. Anything that you can think of that might have for your past self, indicated, I need to come back and fill this in. Try searching for it. If it doesn't come up, cool. If it does, check it. It's not the end of the world if you miss something, but it's worth seeing if you can catch it before moving on.

Agnes: Alright, so I'm going to add a question that I did not prepare you for, and hopefully you can answer this. How do we know it's our final edit?

Rebecca: Essentially, you just have to decide that, and that's gonna look different for everyone. If you have a deadline, that's a solid answer for you. If you know you need to hand off your manuscript to a dev editor, or a line editor, beta readers, whoever, by a certain date,

Whatever edit you get to with the minimum amount of time left is your final edit. And if you're not working with a deadline, it takes a fair bit of introspection and exploration within your own creative process to know when you've reached a point of going, I'm either burning out on this so hard that if I keep editing, I'm going to stop engaging with this project at all and it's never gonna get done-done and published, or, to know, hey, I'm just getting bogged down in going through over and over and over and catching 5 typos per round. I need to let go and accept that there are going to be some flaws going into beta and dev, which they're there always are, and I just need to take that next step. You know it's your final edit when you've done reasonably what you can in a reasonable time period. And for some people, that's a decade, and that's fine. For me, that tends to be I give myself, you know, 1 to 3 months for self-editing. But I'm a dev editor, I'm experienced, I know what I'm doing. That's not going to be the case for everyone. So, I recommend, if you're asking yourself, how do I know this is my final edit? Either give yourself a deadline, or, give yourself some other kind of line where you can hold yourself accountable and say, if I do a read-through, and all I'm fixing are typos and missing words, I need to be done and I need to move on to the next step.

Agnes: I like that a lot, and I do know, this is from my own experiences, giving myself a deadline, hiring you and deciding, okay, you are looking over it, and I remember I had 3 types of edits I wanted to do, and I only was able to get through one and a half times. I wasn't able to get all the way through the end before sending. And I had considered saying, hey, I'm gonna hold off. But I'm actually glad I didn't, and I think that's something that's worth sharing, just because sometimes good enough is good enough before you send it off to somebody. And I think, you know, it is nice to have as polished as possible, but Oftentimes, when it's not as polished as possible, especially if you're setting it to somebody who's a development editor as opposed to, like, a casual reader, I think there's a little bit more safety in just being like, okay, it's good enough, I'm doing it. Anyway, so wrapping up, I have one last question for you. What if we really don't feel ready for final checks in general, or these specifically? Like, we aren't ready to be done, or still have more to get through?

Rebecca: Then the pacing of this series, or the timeframe in which you watched it, isn't right for you. And that's fine. I structured this series as carefully as I could, so that we're getting to the right topics in the right order, at least from my experience and from the authors that I have spoken to specifically on this topic of self-editing process. If that's not holding true for you, that's fine. Just write down what you feel still needs to be done, journal through whatever emotional blockage you're dealing with of, I'm not ready to let go, I'm not ready to let go, I'm not ready to be done, it's not perfect yet. It's all a matter of naming the reason behind feeling like you're not ready for this stage yet, or you don't want to call it final edits. If you can name the reason, it's far more likely that you can then do something about it, or move forward. And if you are getting enjoyment out of self-editing, and you don't really feel the need to publish, be that querying agents or going the self-publishing route, that's fine. Self-edit for the rest of your life! If it brings you joy, and it's fulfilling the desire and the need that you have in writing, great! If you do want to sort of have more of a production kind of mindset around it and get the book out there, have publications, share it with your friends, whatever, Setting those deadlines can be helpful, and if you're coming up on a deadline, and you're looking at your book and going, this doesn't feel like a final edit, I'm not ready for this. Take a breath, and like we talked about in the mental health episode in this series, maybe you need to move that deadline. Or, maybe you need to accept that, like you just said, good enough can be good enough, and move forward. It's entirely up to you as the individual which option before you feels like the right one at a given moment.

Agnes: Well, thank you so much for your insights. It has, as always, helped me so much.

Rebecca: Excellent. And yeah, I love talking about this stuff, and I've so enjoyed this series, and I can't wait to get to the last few episodes here. Next week, we are going to do part two of our final checks here, and go into detail about how to get the most out of your last full read-through before getting outside feedback. For now, huge, huge thank you to everyone who follows along with this series wherever you are watching or listening to it. If you know any other authors who are nearing the end of their first draft, or struggling with revising or rewriting their novel, please send them our way. The more authors that we can help understand and finish the process of self-editing, the happier I will be. Thank you, Agnes, for joining me today.

Agnes: Can't wait to chat with you again next week. See you then.

Nonverbal Communication: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 45

Tue, 11 Nov 2025 23:00:07 GMT

Nonverbal Communication: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript…

Opposite the point I make in the episode that you need to avoid describing experiential NVC for non-POV characters, you also want to avoid using observable-only NVC for POV characters. For example, if you are in Jane’s POV, it wouldn’t make sense to say “her expression darkened and she seemed upset” in narration, since that is an observation from outside her experience or POV. Hope that's helpful to point out!

Lastly, the other episodes I reference in the transcript below can be found here:

Episode 13: Pacing—Rises and Falls

Episode 18: Appropriate Intensity

Episode 42: Exposition & Info-Dump: Show vs Tell

Happy editing!

Episode 45 Overview:

Nonverbal Communication

“Do I use too little, or too much nonverbal communication, such as how emotions feel physically, body language, gestures, posture, expressions, and the like? Do I have enough variety with them without breaking my authentic voice? And do I use them purposefully to add immersion or meaning?”

In this episode of the Story Savvy Series , we unpack how to polish your manuscript by editing nonverbal communication for clarity and impact. Learn how to avoid repetitive gestures, use body language to deepen character POV, and maintain descriptive variety without losing your voice. We also cover how to avoid head-hopping , enhance emotional beats, and balance showing vs. telling when writing genre fiction description . Rebecca gives many great self editing tips for writers .

Join developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring middle grade fantasy author Agnes Wolfe as they break down this week's self-editing topic of nonverbal communication (NVC) and polishing your manuscript. Together, they explore practical craft strategies for authors looking to improve their writing and revision skills while discussing such topics as trimming NVC for pacing and clarity as well as using NVC appropriately.

In This Episode:

Why nonverbal communication matters and how it deepens POV
Practical ways to replace adverbs and telling with body language
Building variety: avoiding overused gestures and thesaurus traps
Assigning distinct nonverbals to characters for stronger characterization
When to add vs. trimming nonverbal communication
Using nonverbals for foreshadowing and emotional intensity

Resources:

High-Quality Developmental Editing
Agnes Wolfe - agneswolfeauthor.com
Dragonheart Academy - Dragonheartacademy.com

See you next week for episode 46: Revisiting Gaps & Sticking Points

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 45 Transcript:

Nonverbal Communication

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 45 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great. As an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We have covered a bunch in this series so far, including last week's episode on name consistency and regulation, which was the second of a two-part series on names. Today, we are going to talk about nonverbal communication in written fiction. By the end of this episode, you'll hopefully feel confident using what you learn to improve reader immersion, descriptive variety, and POV depth. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolf. Welcome.

Agnes Wolfe: Welcome! I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later next year, and also the host and founder of Authors Alcove. I'm here today to tackle how to check and improve descriptions of things like gestures, posture, expressions, and more as writers. So, I think this is such a huge topic, and I'm so glad that we are covering this. Before I get to that particular question, I think it's important just to talk about why it's important, and what's the goal we should have around this topic in our self-editing, specifically.

Rebecca: Nonverbal communication descriptions is a niche subset of showing over telling, which I think is the most often neglected. In particular, and adding to that answer, using adverbs or stating emotions or tone can easily and quickly start feeling overused, or like it's falling into too much telling. So, switching things over to more nonverbal communication, like how emotions feel in the POV character's body, or what expressions, posture, and the like they are observing in others. The goals with self-editing around this topic have a few different layers. First, you want to try to avoid adverbs, odd or unusual dialogue tags, or too much telling around emotions. And you can do this by switching over to more nonverbal communication descriptions, like I just mentioned. Second, you want to make sure that outside of omniscient POV, which is an exception, you always have a very clear line between experienced or experiential nonverbal cues coming from only the POV character for a given scene, and observed or observable NVC—so, nonverbal communication, coming from only the non-POV characters. So, for example, let's say you want to convey annoyance. Within the person that is the POV character for that scene, it would make sense and be correct and appropriate to describe that annoyance as them balling their fists, or feeling a tightness in their chest, or them grinding their teeth, tapping their foot, however you want to describe that, but it has to be something that they experience and feel. But, if it's a secondary character, or just any character that isn't in the POV for that scene, you can't say that their chest feels tight, because that's head-hopping into their perspective. So, their nonverbal communication as a non-POV character has to be only things that the POV character can observe, such as the foot tapping, or the clenched fists, or their expression, things like that. Third, on the list of goals around nonverbal communication and self-editing is, you want to make sure that you are hitting the Goldilocks zone for variety within your NVC descriptions. On one side of that, you don't want to be too repetitive with your terms or phrases, and in particular, you don't want to overuse noticeably unique or just noticeable options. The best example that I can give about this is in the Court of Thorns and Roses series, the author uses the phrase “and it felt like her chest caved in.” And that phrase of chest caved in is unusual and unique, and I have seen so many different reader groups bring it up as just, “Why does she keep saying that?” But if it was a more common phrase, that wouldn't be an issue, so that's sort of this end of the spectrum that we're trying to avoid in our NVC descriptions. On the other end of that spectrum, you don't want to distract your readers by whipping out the thesaurus and stepping outside of the vocabulary conventions for your genre and audience by getting too varied, or too flowery and inventive with your descriptions. So, as you're editing for this topic, just bear that balance in mind as you go through, and aim for variety within your authentic author voice and style goals.

Agnes: So, I'm going to tell on myself right here, I know that I use smirked way more than necessary, and I'm sure that if I left it in every single time, it would be so distracting to a reader. In fact, I actually probably only use 5 nonverbals on a regular basis, forgetting that there's many more that you can use. So obviously a read-through and a simple find and replace in Word would be very helpful to identify this. But, if we do find that we do have a few that we reuse over and over, like I did, what are some things we should consider as we edit our manuscript, more than just the simple find and replace?

Rebecca: First and foremost, I suggest brainstorming your own list of all the nonverbal communication descriptions you, the individual, think would feel and sound natural to you and in your voice. That can really save you from just staring at all of these search results for a certain word and feeling stuck around what you could possibly replace some of them with.

And, again, I suggest dabbling in audio. Often, if you overuse a certain phrase, it's easier to catch or remember how often you are using it with your ears than it is with your eyes. You can also use that brainstormed list that you made to give yourself a list of the terms to search for in the first place to see how often you're using them. Try searching every NVC word or phrase you brainstormed and write down the number of uses next to each one. If those numbers seem balanced for however you want to define that, great! If not, that gives you a solid starting point for diving in with all of these edits.

Agnes: Okay, so again, I'm going to totally tell on myself, but, I literally went… as I was editing, I ended up finding that I would go from one overused nonverbal to another when I was trying to diversify my language, because apparently, I'm not very good at changing very much. So, what would be some ways to help broaden our non-vocabulary—or, excuse me, our nonverbal vocabulary—so we aren't going from too many, like, “she smirked,” to “she smiled,” or something like that.

Rebecca: Great question, and I've definitely been guilty of that myself. I think that this also goes back to that brainstormed list for your own personal NVC terms. Once you have made it, try using as many of those different terms as you can spread out across the book. So, if you overuse the word smirk, brainstorm more than just the word smiled as an alternative to it, and when you do your search for the overused word, try to reach for a variety of replacements rather than one go-to replacement. That is, essentially, the extent of that. But you can also try assigning each character their own distinct nonverbal cues. So, maybe one character, when they do this, you call it a smile. When this other character does it, you call it a smirk, and when that one does it, you call it a grin, that sort of thing. So that will have two benefits, essentially. It will save you from some of that repetition and always using the same term, but it can also help build up individuality for each of those characters.

Agnes: So, I know that we all have our own that we tend to lean to, but are there some that over the broad spectrum of authors that we tend to have? I guess a list of most common overused nonverbals that people tend to use.

Rebecca: Yeah, I pulled up my own list that I check my books past, and the ones that I think I see the most from everything that I read and edit are: frowning, smiling, glancing and gazing, I guess I'll count those as two. A lot of it just tends to be naming specific body parts, so eyes—which I've mentioned in the past, I am very much guilty of, that's my worst one, I'm constantly talking about where people are looking and “their eyes raked down his body,” whatever. Heads, shoulders, stomach, and then some really common gestural nonverbal communications, like nodding and shaking their head, or things like that.

Agnes: Well, I'm glad to know that I'm in good company, because I think I use all of those too much. So, when communicating nonverbals, what are some things we should consider to make sure that the descriptions we are using feel organic to the individual character?

Rebecca: Yeah. Like I mentioned earlier, compartmentalizing those descriptions can be really helpful. So, if you want to have a character who, let's say, has a nervous tick of always chewing their fingernails, that's great, but have it only be that one character. I've edited a book where all of the characters have the same nervous tick of tugging their shirt down, and it was something that I had to point out to the author, because at that point, it becomes more about the author than it does about giving the character itself depth, so try compartmentalizing, and if one character has a very strong association with a particular expression, or emotional feeling in their own body when they're the POV character, try to keep that pretty much limited to them, and then give the other characters their own different sets of their go-to descriptions or experiences. And point 2, I guess: again, don't reach for exotic options too much in genre fiction. If you're writing literary, if you have masterworks that you consider your book in the same genre of that really use extremely flowery, inventive, interesting descriptions, that's fine, but for this series, we're mostly talking about genre fiction, particularly romance and fantasy, and in these, don't go overboard. Stick to familiar terms, because the point of these genres are more heavily on the side of delivering the story than they are about beautiful word use. So, think about that, and especially with your characters, where this applies to that is, if you have a very basic, level-headed, down-to-earth, let's say blacksmith character. He, in his own experience, POV, whatever, is probably going to use very simple language. But if you have, let's say, a 4,000-year-old elven king, yeah, your vocabulary options for describing his NVC either that he's observing in others or feeling in himself might be 3 times as large. Bear that in mind when you're looking at using NVC to add to specific characterization. You can also try just closing your eyes and really trying to put yourself in the experience of that moment to come up with the correct NVC for that moment. When this character, as you want them to be, experiences anger, how does that feel in their body? Or when you're in this POV character's head, what sort of cues would they be most likely to pick up on and able to interpret correctly that somebody else is feeling agitated? Are they going to be looking at their eyes and seeing that this person's eyes are darting everywhere? Which is my default. Or are they more likely to notice that this person is standing off to the side from the crowd, or that their fingers are tapping, something like that? What is that character going to notice? And if you close your eyes and try to put yourself in their shoes, that can really help with grounding that NVC experience like you'd mentioned in your question. And then, lastly on this topic right here, what dialogue actions that the protagonist takes—so just choices that they make and then enact—and context for a scene take on some of this weight of showing emotion or thought, things like that, so that you aren't overusing NVC in general? Instead of trying to describe an NVC that someone is feeling like their PTSD is triggered, you can try having them say that out loud. Or you can simply show that the context, something happened, maybe a firework went off, and now, they take the action of turning on their heel and promptly walking away. You don't have to use NVC to describe emotion, is what I'm saying, so when you feel like you're overusing it, try looking at dialogue, actions that they take in context to do that instead.

Agnes: I feel like nonverbal communication can do a lot as far as character building, so I feel like going along accents or a common phrase a character might use, that you could really build a character through maybe purposefully overusing a type of nonverbal. Are there rules we should keep in mind if we do want to a character who has a repetitive nonverbal without overusing it?

Rebecca: Yeah… I'm not sure where the line there would be with overusing if it's that specific scenario of, hey, I am making this character unique by, again, let's say, biting their fingernails as a nervous habit. One piece of advice that I can think of here is make sure that there is still variety within what they feel. So, you aren't always describing them as nervous and biting their fingernails. There are also moments when they are happy, or sad, or just really working on something hard. So, yes, you can still have nervous biting affair nails be a standard, go-to, unique trait for them, but make sure that they aren't always nervous, if that makes sense. And then within that, again, write out maybe 3 different ways. to describe that particular habit or idiosyncrasy, whatever the quirk is for that character, and try to cycle through them a little bit regularly. Make sure that you're not using the exact same wording, exact same phrase, over and over and over and over and over for a whole chapter or half of the book, or whatever like that.

Agnes: I also feel like nonverbals are really good at foreshadowing events. What are some ways that we can use those to really enhance our storytelling in that respect?

Rebecca: Lots of different ways. First, it adds a lot of depth to your POV. When I wrote my first book and was having a beta reader look at it for the first time, one of their major pieces of feedback for me was that my POV felt distant. And I had never heard of deep POV at that point, so I had to do a lot of research, and doing more to describe how the POV character felt with their emotions, rather than expressed them was a huge turning point in getting that POV a lot deeper and more immersed. Speaking of which, immersion for your reader in the story is also a big part of this NVC. In our real lives, we don't have a narrator voice telling us, “Hey, that person over there is mad at you.” What we actually do is observe their facial expressions and their tone of voice and their posture and their body language and their gestures and come to that conclusion ourselves. So, the more you can let your POV characters do that, as the reader's experiencing the world through their point of view, the more immersive and realistic and sort of tuning out of the rest of the world that experience can be for the reader. It can also help a lot with emotional strength. Particularly, like we talked about in episode 13 on pacing at the macro level, and in episode 18 on intensity. When you have an intense moment, if you don't have any nonverbal communication either being experienced or observed, it can make that moment feel really flat. But likewise, if you have a small mundane moment, but your character is feeling really kind of intense NVC, or seeing that in somebody else, and then that never gets addressed properly, that can be emotionally confusing and lose readers' trust and things like that. So, the use or lack thereof of NVC can very much play into that intensity and pacing issue. It is also yet another layer on that showing, over-telling topic, like from episode 42. Stating, let's say, Bob—Bob is angry. That's telling. Writing out Bob frowned and clenched his fists is showing. So, using more NVC instead of statements can do a lot to shift more from telling into showing, which, again, is super common advice. And then, my last thought here is just that using more NVC and using it well can simply add a lot more nuance and art to a story. You could take the most boring, predictable, written-to-formula, let's say, lovers meet scene, that you've ever written in your entire life or read. And using NVC, you can add nuance to that and make it more complicated and interesting in so many ways that, point blank, you couldn't, or stating the emotions, you couldn't. So, use the NVC as sort of this top dusting of different flavors that you can play with.

Agnes: So, how can we know where we should add or remove nonverbal cues? Because I'm sure we can overuse them, especially in certain scenes.

Rebecca: Yeah, I would say try to make a call for yourself individually if you think you're generally overusing across the whole book or underusing. In my experience, most authors fall on one side or the other, so knowing your starting point is a very important part of this process. From there, let's say you recognize that you tend to overuse NVC. If that's the case, look for places—I would say primarily, where, again, you can hand that word space over to dialogue, actions taken, or context, or where the moment is small and it doesn't actually matter that much, so that succinctness and clarity of meaning of just telling, of just stating she felt this way, is more helpful. And I refer people back to episode 42 on Show Don't Tell, there is a time and a place for both. And if you're overusing NVC, you might actually need to shift a little bit more in the direction of telling to spare your reader purple prose, whatever you want to call that. If you fall on the too-little NVC side, which I do in all of my first drafts, all of my editing around NVC tends to be adding. If you're falling on that side, look specifically for the moments where the emotion has the most impact on what's happening. So, the fact that this person is nervous or angry or excited really drives the direction that they move in going forward, or where you just want the reader to have the most understanding of the emotion being felt. And this tends to be in the big moments, so the turning points, the crises, the climaxes, whatever that looks like. Yeah, so beyond that, just trust your gut and pay attention to it. When you're reading through, and we're coming up quickly on an episode that's specifically about doing your final read-through, just pay attention a little bit. Watch out for major nonverbal cue moments, or places where you really do a lot of stating about adverbs, dialogue tags, tone. And maybe you could swap in some NVC to add variety, or to reduce word count, to do more showing or telling. Things like that. I can't really tell you to “go search this term, and this is where you put NVC.” It's really down to you to kind of assess the situation in your own book and decide where you want to go from there.

Agnes: I feel like I am kind of restating questions you've already answered, but when we're referring to show and tell, when should we consider telling our audience through inner dialogue, as opposed to the showing nonverbals?

Rebecca: I think when you really need a balance between clarity and meaning and immersion is a great use for internal thoughts. Pure nonverbal communication in narration is purely showing. And that can occasionally lack clarity and meaning. But, stating it like saying she's angry, or in dialogue saying I'm angry is just telling without showing. Having the internal thoughts as an option can be very helpful in balancing the two. I will say that even then, you need to make sure that you're in a Goldilocks zone. You don't want to overuse internal thoughts. But you also don't want to avoid them so regularly that it's kind of jarring when one does come up. So that might be enough of a reason. If you're going through and you're like, “Okay, my protagonist has an internal italicized thought in Chapter 1, and then he doesn't have another italicized internal thought until the climax,” that's a great excuse to go through and every other chapter, every 3-4 chapters, whatever—pick a moment of either telling emotion or nonverbal showing an emotion, and turn it into an internal thought, just to maintain that stylistic pattern throughout.

Agnes: That makes a lot of sense, and I'm so glad I asked that, because you really made me think about, you know, I do have internal thoughts, but I don't think I have very many, and I wonder if it might be kind of jarring that all of a sudden, out of nowhere, they do have that internal thought, so I love that. Well, anyway, thank you so much for your insight. It has helped me a lot.

Rebecca: Absolutely. Next week, we are going to start our final checks and go over revisiting gaps and sticking points in our manuscripts. We really are nearing the end of this process, and speaking of that, I want to thank everyone who has followed along for this whole series. I am so grateful for everyone watching and listening. If you know anybody, any other authors, writers, creatives who are struggling with the self-revision process with their novels, please send them this podcast. We want to help them. And yeah, I'll see you guys next week, and thank you, Agnes, for joining me, as always.

Agnes: Thank you.

See you next time!

Name Consistency & Regulation: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 44

Tue, 04 Nov 2025 23:00:00 GMT

Names Part Two: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript…

You can download the full checklist for this episode and the last one through BookFunnel here!

Another way to check if your unique invented word has actually already been invented before, as I mention in this episode, is to try saying it out loud to speech-to-text, like dictating to your phone. See what spelling it interprets from that which you may then be able to search for a definition on. For example, maybe you name a character Lagoobrias, sprung purely from the depth of your imagination. But, when you dictate it, your phone interprets it as lugubrious , which has established meaning. You can obviously assume readers won’t know it from its established use if you didn’t, but it’s always better to choose something willfully than run with it blindly.

To expand on another point in this episode:

With situations where a character has an old name and a new/truer name in play, when doing your checks, it’s very important that you only use each where appropriate. The most common mistakes I see around this is either using the new name accidentally before you meant to or it was properly introduced, or accidentally using the old name again after the switch without addressing it.

Lastly, the other episodes I reference in the transcript below can be found here:

Episode 12: Story Research (Including sensitivity issues)

Episode 43: Names Intros & Choices

Happy editing!

Episode 44 Overview:

Name Consistency & Regulation

“What aspects of replacing names and/or checking consistency around the names in my novel should I be going over in the self-editing process?”

In this episode, we explore self-editing names in fiction , including how to avoid similar character names and balance title vs name usage for clarity and reader immersion. You’ll learn practical self-editing character names strategies, naming conventions for authors , and how to apply developmental editing advice to keep your cast distinct and memorable. Perfect for writers looking to polish your manuscript , this episode blends self-editing tips for writers with actionable tools for fantasy novel editing and beyond.

In this episode, a sequel to last week’s episode on names, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell answers questions from aspiring middle grade fantasy author Agnes Wolfe, turning a nuanced editorial checklist into practical guidance for working writers. Together, they unpack how character names impact clarity, pacing, and reader immersion during the self-editing stage, offering insights that apply whether you're writing epic fantasy, historical fiction, or contemporary drama.

In This Episode:

Making a full list of your character names
Avoiding visually or audibly similar names
Ensuring invented names/terms are used frequently enough to matter
Handling name changes, placeholders, and sensitivity issues
Deciding when to name a character versus just giving them a descriptor

Resources

Developmental Editing
Names Checklist Handout - https://BookHip.com/XBMSATG
Agnes Wolfe - agneswolfeauthor.com
Dragonheart Academy - Dragonheartacademy.com

See you next week for episode 45: Nonverbal Communication: Better Immersion & Deeper POV

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 44 Transcript:

Name Consistency & Regulation

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 44 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips. To help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We have covered so much in this series so far, including last week's episode on the first half of the topic of self-editing names in fiction, covering introductions and making choices around them. Today, we are going to take a look at consistency and regulation around the names in your book. By the end of this episode, every aspect around names will be stronger and more polished, hopefully, and you will have a comprehensive checklist to use in future projects around names. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolf. Hello.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later next year and also host and founder of Authors Alcove. I'm here today to tackle the second half of this topic on names. So, do you want to just jump right back in where we left off last week? You were sharing different tips. Is that what you want to do?

Rebecca: Absolutely. So, we got through steps 1 through 7 last week. So, picking up where we left off, task number 8 on this checklist is … these are questions to ask yourself as much as they are tasks, so I've tried to phrase them as such, and that question is, what is my full list of character names, or characters? We touched on this briefly in an answer to one of your questions last week, but this is the moment to make that full list for yourself if you haven't already, before we go on further with this process.

Agnes: So, I know that I have a list of all of my characters' names, and it's listed kind of like a table of contents, where characters are listed individually with particular details, and I did this so that as my cast expands, I don't have characters that are too similar in names and stuff like that. What are ways that you feel I should handle this? Does it matter how or where we make our list, any specific advice? I know that I'm using Excel and Word documents.

Rebecca: I think that Excel is a particularly good idea, because then you can do first names in one column and last names in another, and make sure that neither set column is going to be overlapping too much with anything else, because then you can A to Z sort each column individually. So, I think that Excel or Google Sheets is a fantastic idea. I know that a lot of authors out there have character rosters of some description, so they'll have a whole character build with their age and maybe their physical description, and where they're from, and what kind of magic they can use, different things like that. And that's great, but if that's all spelled out in these big chunks, I recommend then taking those and making it into a shortlist, like you were just talking about, like a table of contents. Where you can still have all of that information but do have a list somewhere where it's just all of the names together so that, like you were just saying, you can visually assess all of them and look for comparisons or things that you need to change around that. So, question to ask yourself number 9 on my list here is, are any names or any proper nouns in general too similar visually or audibly when reading at speed that need to be changed? So you already touched on this, but it is very much checking that you aren't going to have a reader seeing a Serafina and a Sarah and getting visually confused, or let's say having a Sean, spelled S-E-A-N, and a Sean spelled S-H-A-W-N, which sound identical, so if this ever becomes an audiobook, that's a problem.

Agnes: So, I have to ask. First off, you know, how can we check the audible part? But where the complication comes in is when we are not sure if our readers are going to be reading the name correctly. For instance, I read the Harry Potter books before I knew what Hermione's name is, and so I read probably the first two full books before—I think in the second or the third book, she actually has the name written out. And I can't remember what it was, but it was probably something like Her-mone-ee or something like that. But she has it spelled out eventually. So how can we make sure, without doing what J.K. Rowling did, to make sure that our audience doesn't necessarily mispronounce and have names too similar, if that makes sense?

Rebecca: So, first of all, that's kind of unavoidable, unfortunately. Unless you are only producing an audiobook, there's going to be some level of that. So, do always check the visual similarity first, and then audio is second to that. But with that question about how do I know how they're going to pronounce it, there's a couple of options for that. First, Google the correct or standard pronunciation for a name, see if that's what you've been saying in your head, just as a beginning check there. But then also, especially if it's an invented name, try running it through any kind of text-to-speech software. So, write out the word, and then click a button and have pretty much any computer program read it to you and see what they say. But then also, just message friends and family, maybe pick 3 to 5 folks, and just be like, “Hey, will you send me a 2-second audio clip of you pronouncing this name however you automatically pronounce this name?” That's essentially how you can check that. So, task number 10, the question to ask yourself is, is each name on my list mentioned at least 3 times in the book? And this is specifically to check the relevance of all of the names on your list.

Agnes: So, I feel like this is a different scenario here than with step number one on this list. So again, but for this step, why is 3 the magic number? I notice 3 often comes up.

Rebecca: Yeah, the situation here is that if a character isn't being mentioned at least 3 times in the book, it might make more sense to not name them at all. So, if a character isn't being named 3 times in the book, it kind of falls into one of two categories. Either they used to be more relevant, or they're going to be more relevant in the future, so you're just trying to kind of keep them present and not forgotten, or they can just be scrapped. Entirely. So, when you're checking, if the name doesn't come up 3 times, you need to make that call. You need to decide to either make them more relevant in this book so that you're doing a better job of implanting them, or sorry, embedding them so that the reader will remember them, or you need to make that call of, “Well, I only mentioned them twice or once, or, really, only 3 times in this whole book, maybe I need to take this character out and give their roles to a character that is already more embedded.” That's essentially the… Again, 3 is just a magic number. Three is easy in fiction, it's a decent, tangible marker to give folks. It's not a hard line. I'm not going to get mad at anyone for having an important character that only gets mentioned twice. But the third option here is just to not name them. So, if this is a character that you want to introduce, or have do something small, try just giving them a placeholder title. Like, the innkeeper, instead of Dylan. When you name a character, it gives them importance, or at least the reader's going to perceive it that way. So, if you're not using a name at least 3 times in a book, it might make sense to say something like his first lieutenant, or the shopkeeper, or my uncle-in-law, something like that, where it's not a name that the reader's going to be expected to remember. So, task number 11 on our checklist here, that question is, are all of my invented words—so that can be for objects, for magic systems, for places, anything like that—are my invented words used at least 3 times? If not, do I want to reconsider just using an established, normal word for it, to avoid it coming across like a red herring or confusing my reader?

Agnes: Do you mind just re-explaining what a red herring is?

Rebecca: Yeah, so a red herring… I'm sure you can Google a more concise definition, but it's essentially when you present something like it's going to be a big deal, and a big hint or a clue, or whatever like that, and it ends up being a mislead, a false sense of that clue’s or that detail's importance. So, moving along from there, step number 12… The question to ask yourself is, If I have invented any names for my world or characters, have I checked a few different things around them? Number one, have you checked that they haven't actually already been invented for something else? You can check this just by googling the word, maybe try some different spellings that might be pronounced the same way, and make sure that you're not getting major hits if you want it to be really, really unique, or at least that the results you're getting aren't terrible. The second thing to check within this step is that none of your invented words—so specifically about objects and places and things like that—are too visually or audibly similar to other words in the book, or existing words. So, you can check this by saying them out loud, checking them with text-to-speech, asking some friends how they would pronounce that word, or just reading it and adjusting to what you were going for a little bit better. And to clarify this point a little bit more, because I realize I kind of got off track here, what I mean by being too similar to already existing words is, for example, I've edited fiction where someone had invented this very cool name for a character, but one of the vowels is pronounced exactly the same way as another vowel, and that word actually means something in the English language. And when I pointed it out to them, they were kind of shocked and horrified. So, you want to avoid accidentally doing that to yourself in your own work. And then very closely related to step number 12, question number 13 to ask yourself is, does my chosen spelling of a name sound how I want it to through one or more text-to-speech softwares? Especially if you're inventing names. If you put it through, let's say, Speechify, and Google Docs Read Aloud, and Microsoft Word Read Aloud, and none of them pronounce that name how you intended it to be perceived, you might want to tweak your invented spelling.

Agnes: That seems pretty straightforward.

Rebecca: Yep. So, question number 14 on our list here is… Are there any names that I want to change, either for sensitivity reasons, because they were placeholders, because the vibe of the character is different in reality than you expected when you were planning it, or for any other reason? And, very closely related to that, question number 15 is, am I consistent with my name for each character throughout? Have I double-checked that? And, have I checked that I didn't miss any uses of the old character name when I was changing it, perhaps due to spelling errors or any other reason like that? So, if your character was originally named Let's go back to Dylan, and you change it to Mortimer. then you need to do a search for Dylan, and make sure that you didn't miss any, but also, maybe check for near misspellings of Dylan in case that happened while you were drafting, and now it's not showing up in searches because it's one letter off. And then also, just to add a little bit to what I'd listed earlier about sensitivity reasons, maybe you had done research on that topic back when we did a whole episode on that, but you hadn't really picked a new name that felt better or more appropriate. Now is the moment to go research whatever sensitivity issues had come up, make that choice, and again, do a search and replace and check near misspellings, and implement that name that is less likely to bring up sensitivity issues with your readers, or potentially do so.

Agnes: On that sensitivity part, one of your comments, you had noticed in my first book was that my villains more often had names that are from outside of my culture, while my protagonists had names I consider more default names. Although there was a reason for that, and you get to learn that a little bit later on in the second book, when more of the characters are introduced, it did appear that way in my first book, so I did make some adjustments so that others would not feel that way in my first book before they understood the reasoning behind the cultured names. But I think this particular topic is a good thing for people to think about, especially in a sensitivity reading. What are your thoughts on that?

Rebecca: So, yeah, I feel like I kind of already touched on this, but it is a good point that sometimes, especially around names, you need to consider, is this getting explained now, or is it getting explained later? And knowing that your reader won't have information from their own reading future, do I need to step back? Do I need to reconsider this? And names are one of the, perhaps, more likely places to catch sensitivity issues, so even if you did do some of those checks earlier, now with names might be a good moment to just go, hey, here's my cast list with antagonist, protagonist, secondary character, good secondary character, bad secondary character kind of stuff listed next to them. And find someone who's a member of the culture that you're writing in, or that you think you might be overstepping a line with and just run it past them. Number 16 on our checklist here, last question to ask yourself is, are there multiple possible spellings of a character's name which I may have accidentally used, and/or, what ways have I personally caught myself misspelling one of my character's names in the planning stage, in drafting, or in editing? And if I make a list of all of those and search them, what results come up?

Agnes : So, I do have a question about this, because this is relevant to my particular story. What if an author has a character that intentionally goes by multiple names, like an old one and a new one? That's mine. But also, if there is actually a real reason why they might have two different spellings to the same name.

Rebecca: Sure, so if your character has an old name and a new name, and that's canon within this story, so they changed their name for some reason, that's fine. Just make sure that that's clear within the story. Make sure that the reader isn't going to get confused about it, and perhaps now and then, bring that old name back up and just go, “Oh yeah, no, I've changed my name.” It's all about clarity with the reader for that level of your question. As far as a reason to use multiple spellings— So, for example, just to clarify where I'm talking from here, I've already talked about misspellings a little bit, but there are names, like Rebecca, that have multiple spellings, or like Sean, like I mentioned earlier, that can be S-H-A-W-N or S-E-A-N. So, if you have a situation like this, if those are two different characters, that's a problem, you need to change one of the names. If that's the same character, but let's say one of the people within the story keeps misspelling their name, or you have a strong reason—like mistaken identity, or a letter getting sent to the wrong person kind of thing—where this misspelling makes sense, I have a couple very specific pieces of advice for that. First of all, make sure you only ever spell it one way in the narration. You as the author need to know the right spelling, and the wrong spelling should only ever come up when something within the world is spelled out with that wrong spelling, and you make it clear that this is a piece of writing in the world. rather than coming from the narrator, if that makes sense. And then my other piece of advice here is just handle it all carefully. Again, clarity for the reader about what the right spelling is, and especially the fact that both spellings refer to the same character needs to be fairly explicit on the page and brought up occasionally if it's an ongoing thing.

Agnes: Okay, so I do want to ask one last question before we go, and it has to do with actually my own writing, is, I was so afraid of being repetitive, and so I have a king in mind, and I refer to him sometimes as his name, sometimes as the king, sometimes… and I kept going back and forth because I didn't want to keep saying his name over and over and over. What are your thoughts on that, and how do you feel it's best to handle that?

Rebecca: Some of this choice is just stylistic. Meaning, it's down to things like genre, or just the personal tastes of the writer. I do recommend aiming for some level of balance between repetitive, so using the same name over and over, and confusing, where you're using a lot of variety. But that's a fairly subjective line to try to draw. If a client asked me about this, despite this topic being much more in the line-level edits than my own developmental wheelhouse, my answer would be roughly as follows. Number one, always use their full name with their title the first time the character is mentioned and the first time that they are introduced, if those are two separate moments. For example, perhaps your character is named and titled King Roland Fairhair, or something like that. Make sure that that's used the first time it's mentioned, and the first time he's introduced. Step number two in my advice here would be, if there is more than one king in the book, when they are being referred to when they aren't present, you probably always need to use the name instead of or in addition to that title that is shared with multiple characters. Point 3 would be, if there is more than one king on stage, so in the same room, in the same chapter, you must always use their names, otherwise it's going to get so confusing. Point 4 would be, barring all of those, I recommend using both the title and name if it's been more than one full chapter since the last time the name was mentioned. So, if you're only referring to him as the king for a chapter or two, you need to use his name again. Same thing goes for the other way around. Point 5 would be, I suggest paying attention to the difference in how the king is referred to in narration, so by you as the author. Which, using my example, might be the fair-haired king, to say, “Okay, the fair-haired king went to his palace.” And then comparing that against how that character is referred to by other characters when he's not around, so perhaps as King Roland. And then lastly, how he has addressed directly when other characters are speaking to him, such as, Your Majesty. Just having a different set that you can use in those three scenarios can help with that variety and keeping things from getting repetitive. And then lastly, as my best attempt at addressing that issue of being repetitive and boring, I would say that a decent rule of thumb would be to avoid using just the name, or just the title more than 3 to 5 times in a row without switching it up. And to make sure that you use both the name and the title regularly, however you want to define that particular phrase for yourself in this context. In my own books, I would say that it depends a little bit on the specific relationship between the POV character or the one speaking and the person being referred to, but I generally try to use the full name and title roughly once in each quarter or quadrant of the book to remind readers that all of those names and titles go together.

Agnes: Well, anyway, thank you so much for all of your insight. It really does help me so much.

Rebecca : Delighted to hear it. Next week, we will go over improving your use and descriptions of nonverbal communication in fiction through self-editing. For now, I really want to thank everyone following along with this series. If you know any other authors who are nearing the end of their first draft or struggling with revising or rewriting their novel, please send them our way. The more authors that we can help understand finish the process of self-editing, the better. Thank you all for listening in, and thank you, Agnes, for joining me today.

Agnes: No problem. And also remember that if you, yourself, are looking for a development editor, I know a very good one. You can go to hartboundediting.com.

Rebecca: And keep an eye out for Agnes' book next fall, I cannot wait to see how far it has come since the version I edited.

See you next time!

Name Intros & Choices: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 43

Tue, 28 Oct 2025 18:25:38 GMT

Name Intros & Choices: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript…

You can download the full checklist for this episode and the next through BookFunnel here!

And the episodes I reference in the transcript below can be found here:

Episode 12: Story Research (Including sensitivity issues)

Episode 20: Deus ex Machina.

Happy editing!

Episode 43 Overview:

Name Intros & Choices

“What aspects of introducing names and/or making choices around the names in my novel should I be going over in the self-editing process?”

In this episode of the Story Savvy Series for fiction authors, Rebecca and Agnes explore how to introduce names clearly and confidently in your manuscript. You’ll learn practical self editing tips for writers , when and how to limit new names, and ways to maintain clarity across characters, places, and titles. This author education channel and writing craft podcast is perfect for authors looking to polish your manuscript and apply developmental editing advice with precision and purpose.

In this episode of the Story Savvy Self-Editing Series, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring fantasy author Agnes Wolfe unpack the fine line between clear, effective naming and reader overload. Rebecca shares how to limit new names per scene, anchor introductions with interpersonal context, and audit place names, titles, and series continuity so your world feels consistent without confusing your reader.

In this episode:

Limiting new names so readers track them
Anchoring introductions with interpersonal context
Hinting at late-entry characters earlier
Checking time/region/culture/religion fit
Clarifying place hierarchies on first mention
Managing multiple names, titles, and aliases

Recommended Resources:

Expert Developmental Editing
Agnes Wolfe: www.agneswolfeauthor.com
Dragonheart Academy: dragonheartacademy.com

See you next week for episode 44: Name Consistency & Regulation

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 43 Transcript:

Name Intros & Choices

Rebecca Hartwell : Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is Episode 43 of the weekly Story Savvy Series where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make a good story great, and we are in the last 10 episodes of this series now, which is very exciting. We have covered so many different topics in this series so far, including last week’s episode on avoiding and fixing exposition and info dump, which also included showing versus telling, which was a fun topic. Today we are going to do the first of two episodes specifically about the self-editing around names I think every writer should do. By the end of this episode, you’ll hopefully feel confident tackling the first half of these edits in your own work-in-progress. Joining me to ask all of the questions is aspiring author and my friend and cohost Agnes Woolf. Hello.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, I’m an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first-grade fantasy later next year, and also host and founder of Author’s Alcove. I am actually starting a new academy called Dragonheart Academy dot com where we’re going to start talking about creative writing for middle graders and teenagers. I am here today to tackle names in fiction, specifically introductions and choices for this week.

So, to kick things off, why are we doing two whole episodes on names? Are we just talking about character names here? Or what are we actually talking about?

Rebecca: We are doing two whole episodes on this because it is a really tangible step in the polishing of a story and the list of questions that I suggest writers ask themselves and apply is pretty long. So, to avoid unnecessary overwhelm for anyone I’m going to split that list roughly in half over two episodes to leave room for any clarifying questions that end up coming up. And no, we are not just talking about character names here. In this conversation on names, we are also talking about place names, titles, and everything else like that. Like I just mentioned, I have a comprehensive checklist that I suggest writers go through on this topic and ask themselves each question and then do whatever research within their own story or make any changes that feel productive and needed from that.

The first question that I suggest you ask yourself is, number one, am I asking the reader to learn more than three new names in any given scene. Three new names in a chapter is, generally, the most that a reader can really memorize, I guess I’ll stay here. If you’re asking a character to remember too many new names, be that character names, or place names, or combination there of in one chapter, it’s more likely that they’re going to forget one of those, or a couple, or get the mixed stuff in their head and muddled together in some kind of way. You want each of your places and your characters to remain very distinct for your readers, and giving them a good chunk of content and context for the name to get their teeth into before asking them to learn the name of the next thing is very helpful in that, so you don’t want to overwhelm with too many names in one chapter and three is just kind of an easy number to work with there.

Point number two, or question number two, is to ask yourself, from this list am I providing interpersonal context, like I was just talking about, and a memorable characteristic trait with each of those introductions. When you give someone a name, do you give them something to go, “oh right, that character is the one who is in this role or has this title or looks like this” and ‘Oh, that place name, that’s the pub where the protagonist works”, something like that you. You need to give them context.

Agnes: So, what exactly does interpersonal context mean here?

Rebecca: So, interpersonal context is going to be titles such as, well, Linda is the protagonist mother, ok that’s interpersonal context. Or Haley is the protagonist’s rival in the school, something like that. Interpersonal context is just saying who this other character is to the other characters; brother, sister, boss, coworker, things like that. So, the third question to ask yourself on the list is, are any characters who only show up in the second half of the story at least hinted at existing or being relevant at some point in the first half. You don’t want to introduce characters in the second half, so doing a check to see where they first come up and then making sure that they are at least mentioned in abstract in the first half can be important for feeling established and built up and not like something that comes out of left field in the part of the story where things should start more building up and wrapping up then being established.

Agnes : So why is this a no-no?

Rebecca: So, in the second half of the story, if you start trying to introduce new things it can just throw your readers off. In the second half of a story, just based on our experience as readers and consuming stories throughout our lives we expect that everything we need to know for the story has already been sort of established and set up; we have that first half foundation and the second half is just supposed to be about using what has been created and building that into something that can have a payoff in the climax and then the resolution. When you introduce a new character in the second half, that can feel at the basest level, just kind of like, “where is this person coming from? This feels weird”. And, at a, perhaps, more extreme level, like deus ex machina, which, if you think it’s going to be extreme I refer you back to the episode on that topic. And then fourth question to ask yourself on my list here is, for any genre, but especially historical, have I checked that my names are appropriate and a good fit for the time period location, culture, age of the character, societal status, and religion of that character. Have I made sure that I’m not contributing to any harmful stereotypes or typecasting with my name choices such as the villains having very ethnic names, while the protagonist and their friends all have classic European names, and if not, if I have not avoided these stereotypes, can I cover that issue by directly addressing and naming how this is coming across or perhaps impacting these characters the first time that name is used or introduced, that sort of thing.

Agnes: So, how does this kind of fantasy where we get to kind of invent the rules around that sort of thing from the ground up?

Rebecca: It is definitely squishier, but I would still suggest thinking about that and if you want to play with it, come up with your own rule set around it. If you have an invented religion in your world, what names are associated with that religion, like names like Mary and Joseph, and you know, Joshua or Sara might be associated with Christianity in the real world, and same sort of thing for ages and societal status. Do only rich people in your world have last names? That’s got real world precedent, maybe that’s a thing. And whatever rules you come up with for your story, I suggest that, first, you just check it for consistency across the board. Try not to have any exceptions to your own rules. And then second, make sure that these rules that you are setting up aren’t going to become a sensitivity issue which, again, we’ve already done an episode on that so if you’re wanting to go back to that topic or revisit it go back to that episode.

So, the fifth point on our list here is, the question to ask yourself is, if this book that you are working on right now is a later book in the series, have I double checked that I didn’t already name the character something else in an earlier book. This is on the list because I’ve done this, and I changed a character’s name and I had to go back and republish the book on Amazon, it was a mess. So, sort of the follow-up question to ask yourself there is, if they aren’t a big part of that past book, or however many books ago, do I need to treat their first appearance in this book like it is a brand-new introduction. If this is an ongoing central character, it’s fine to just bring them up again. But if they haven’t been super relevant up to that point, it can be a really good idea to make sure that the first time this character is introduced this book it feels like you’re introducing them to the reader like the first time they’ve ever seen the name.

Agnes: So how can I know which names to check or where? What if I already mentioned a character in an earlier book?

Rebecca: So that’s essentially what happened to me. I forgot that I already mentioned this character by name in book one when she came up in book, I can’t even remember, it was like three or four. What I suggest you do is essentially make a list, which we’ll go into a lot more detail on later, but when in doubt try just searching, hopefully you’ve got all of your previous books and some sort of searchable document, and just before you get too far with the current book later in the series go into each of those books and search every name you have ever thought of that character being. So if, let’s say, you originally named your character Bob, but that was just a place name and by book five in the series or whatever you’re working on, his name has changed to, you know, Dominic, something like that, then you need to search all the previous books for both Bob and Dominic and any other in between name you possibly ever called him to make sure that you have not previously named him something else.

Point number six on my list here is to ask yourself is the first time I use a given place name. Am I clear about whether it is a continent, a kingdom, a country, a county of region estate, a city town or something else. Is it clear what, you know, Mordor is if you had no context yet to know what or where a Mordor was.

Agnes : So where exactly is the line, so if I mention an enchanted forest in a fantasy, do I have to clarify exactly where and what that is or only if I give a different name to an area that is functionally also an enchanted forest?

Rebecca: The context in which you mention it for the first time can be very helpful, so if you’re saying, “hey, I need you to walk through the enchanted forest to go visit so-and-so” that’s pretty clear. You can probably just leave it at face value there, but it is important to remember that in this world the reader doesn’t know maybe you have a pub called the enchanted forest. So, when you say you’re going to go to the enchanted forest, you mean you’re going to go drink some pints with your buddies. So just pay attention and give thought to whether or not it is clear and accurate to someone who has no idea what’s to come the first time you mention something. It’s really kind of case by case, but it’s worth mentioning and checking every single time the first use of a place name to make sure that it is understandable and if you have something kind of confusing, like let’s say a hotel named you know the Pine Mountain, that it’s clear that it’s a hotel and not a mountain covered in pine trees. I hope that makes sense.

So, the next question to ask yourself on the list is, if any of my characters go by multiple names, that could be a first and last name, first name their friends call them in a middle name their parents call them, anything like that, or have multiple titles or labels and a name. Do I clearly introduce them all by all of those names and titles the first time? So if you have someone who has a first, middle, and last name and a religious title and a military title and a government title it’s going to be a lot and I don’t actually suggest that you do that but if you insist on doing that, try to use all three words the first time you introduce this character. Introduce them as James Michael Smith, Father, general, whatever, the first time so that the reader immediately knows, “oh, all of those refer to this one person. OK cool”. And then the follow up questions within this question are, can I reduce the number of names and or titles that they can go by to a bare minimum that the story needs to function because that will help readers, and then can I make those aspects unique to them? Do I use all of those names or nicknames or titles often and memorably enough for the reader to keep track that they all refer to the same character. So, a little bit of clarity on that one, if you only call, let’s say your villain, “the general” twice in the whole book, by the second use the reader is probably going to go, “wait, what general? Wait, is that talking about Mister Smith? Is that the same person?” So, you want to make sure that if you insist on using many titles and many names those get used regularly and memorably throughout so that the reader can keep track as they go through.

And then lastly, I think lastly. I’m trying to check my notes here a little bit. If I search for every single one of those names or titles, is each use of it clear about who is speaking and acting? So again, if in a chapter, I say, “the general gave orders”, is it clear that it is general Smith, that specific character. Since this checklist is getting so long at this point, I’m going to go ahead and say that this is enough for this week of self-editing. We’re going to do the rest of the list next week and hopefully this has given people plenty of homework to do for the moment.

Agnes: Since you’re done giving your checklist for now, I did want to ask one last question. So, one of the biggest turnoffs I have in epic fantasy, which is funny because that what I write, which I think others, this is something that others love is having really long complicated names. I think I’m just the wrong target audience for these books because I just, if I pick up a book and it has a bunch of names that I cannot pronounce in my head, I will put it back. Is this something people should be wary of or is actually a target audience type of thing?

Rebecca: I think this is entirely a target audience thing. I tend to lean on the side with you where I prefer simpler names and concepts and stuff because I’m here for the plot not for the world building, or less for the world building, but high fantasy in general as a genre, loves that stuff! And I’m totally into it. I get clients coming to me with, I've had dictionaries sent to me with all of their world building words and pronunciation guides for the names, and there is absolutely a fantastically large enthusiastic audience for that. So, whatever floats your boat, go for it. The one thing that I will say here is try to pick one or the other consistently, so don’t have one character named Bob and one named you know a five syllable fantasy name you made up. That’s just going to be jarring to the reader and it’s going to be weird and confusing. So, if you want to go long fantasy word type of fantasy, commit to it. And if you don’t, try to keep them all relatively short and simple. Obviously, there are exceptions, if you know you start out as low fantasy and then fantasy creatures come into your world kind of thing, but whatever you want to do there, just choose it and do it intentionally.

Agnes : I love when you are telling these things because I always think of authors who break these rules so well, because one of my favorite authors of all time is Jasper Ford because he is so absurd. Like he is absurd. So, he can get away with breaking certain rules because his stories are just ridiculous and I love it.

Rebecca: That’s great to have this reminder every once in a while, that there are exceptions to every rule. My job is just to establish the rules for the newer authors who still need to learn how to follow them before they advance into breaking them, so I’m very glad you mentioned that.

Agnes : I just think it’s funny that I was picturing him writing like purposely having all these complicated names and then having a Bob, and he would do it, and he would pull, it would come off really well, and everybody would find it really funny. Anyway, thank you so much for all you have to say. I really do appreciate it.

Rebecca: Absolutely. Next week we will go over consistency and regulation around the names to finish out the second half of this topic, and as always, I would like to thank everyone who listens, and watches, and follows along with the series. If you know any authors who are nearing the end of the first draft or struggling with revising or rewriting their novel then please send them this podcast. Give them a little bit of help there and the more folks that we can get understanding self-editing and doing it better? I think that’ll be great for the author world.

Agnes: I can’t wait to hear the rest of this checklist because I’m very curious what you have on it. Thank you.

See you next time!

Show Don’t Tell: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 42

Tue, 21 Oct 2025 20:32:24 GMT

Exposition & Info-Dump: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript…

The other episode I referenced in this one which I feel may be helpful to revisit or compare are:

Episode 36: Pacing — Big & Small Moments

Episode 37: Handling Jumps in Time, Place, & POV

Happy editing!

Episode 42 Overview:

Exposition & Info-Dump: Show vs Tell

"What exactly are exposition and info-dump? Why should authors avoid them both, and how can you still provide the same information to a reader without it feeling like either?"

Show versus tell goes far beyond basic writing advice—it shapes how readers experience your story and is narrative distance explained . This writing craft podcast from the Story Savvy Series offers insight on how to avoid info dumps and perspective on when telling delivers necessary clarity. You’ll discover story structure and editing techniques that keep prose purposeful and avoid over-description. With actionable developmental editing advice and storytelling improvement tips , this episode gives you the tools to polish your manuscript while maintaining emotional depth and narrative drive.

In this episode of the Story Savvy Self-Editing Series, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring fantasy author Agnes Wolfe unpack the fine line between showing and telling. Rebecca shares how to spot when description becomes over-showing, how to replace info dumps with natural “just-in-time” information, and how strategic telling can sharpen your story’s focus.

In this episode:

Identifying the right ratio of showing to telling
Spotting when description starts to slow the story down
Why telling prevents reader immersion
Cutting exposition that clutters your narrative
Choosing when telling moves the story forward
Integrating key details naturally through action and dialogue

Recommended Resources:

Developmental Editing
Agnes Wolfe: www.agneswolfeauthor.com

See you next week for episode 43: Name Intros & Choices

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 42 Transcript:

Exposition & Info-Dump: Show vs Tell

Rebecca Hartwell : Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 42 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We've covered so much in this series so far, including last week's episode on reducing redundancy and repetition. Today, we are going to take a look at avoiding or fixing exposition and info dump. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully know how to spot the difference between poorly presented and well-presented information in fiction, and have another great tool in your pocket for healthily reducing word count and improving your pacing. Joining me, as always, to ask the questions is my good friend and co-host, Agnes Wolff. Hello.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later next year, and also host and founder of Authors Alcove. I'm here today to tackle avoiding these classic literary problems. So, we have finally arrived. I feel like this topic has come up in so many different episodes, in so many different ways. The “show, don't tell” is definitely one of the most common things that you hear, the most common writing advice you'll hear anywhere. So, everyone has heard at least that phrase, not all of us understand it. So I was wondering, how do you want to introduce this particular topic today?

Rebecca: I agree that “show, don't tell” is probably the most common piece of writing advice out there. And I think that that advice is very often helpful, but not always. I think there is very much a place for showing and telling in fiction to deliver the best story possible. First of all, the reason that this gets said so often is that immersion is really important for good fiction, and showing aids immersion a lot. However, clear meaning is also important, and that's where telling is more useful. If you really need to have a reader understand what's happening, or what something means, telling is more clear than showing is. And then also, showing is more valuable when you want to deepen the experience of that immersion. You want to have the readers really—can't avoid repeating myself here—deep into the story and into the experience of your protagonists. However, there is a balance where you also want to get on with things and get to the next interesting thing, which telling can help you achieve more quickly and succinctly.

Agnes: I know that I was talking to a writer, actually not too long ago, and one of the things they said is that they hate when people say, “Show, don't tell.” And she was like, “What does that even mean?” So I think that it's important for us to establish right now—can you maybe explain what showing is versus what telling is a little more for anyone who may be less certain or inexperienced?

Rebecca: Absolutely. Telling is making statements about what's happening or what people are feeling in the narration, which is essentially anything outside of dialogue or internal thoughts. Specifically, telling, as in that show-don't-tell part, is telling in ways where the reader would not know what was happening or what was going on, or have any context for it if they weren't being told directly by the author. Showing is specifically using sensory input to impart the same information. So, imparting events or details through sights, sounds, smells, and most often through physical actions, so kinetic sensory information done by one of the avatars in the story. So, for example, and I'm just going to give one example in the hopes that that's helpful. If not, go Google the topic. There are so many great articles on the topic out there, so… For example, telling would be something like:

“Kate was extremely cold, and losing hope when she stumbled across what appeared to be an abandoned cabin. After making sure no one was inside, she broke a window and climbed in before settling in for the night and trying to stay warm.”

That is all me as the narrator, the storyteller, telling you what Kate did, as sort of facts, or points on a timeline of events kind of thing. Showing that exact same thing might look like:

“Kate couldn't feel her hands or feet, and squinted against the snow blowing in her eyes. As if her silent prayer for shelter had been heard, the looming outline of a cabin appeared among the trees, and Kate ran for it. She knocked hard on the door, only hearing silence in response, and found it locked when she yanked on it. Bracing herself, she broke a pane of glass in the window beside it with her elbow, careful of the broken shards as she climbed inside. She slid down the wall, shivering, and tucked her blue fingers under her arms before succumbing to exhaustion.”

So, just to take one tiny point from that to really hammer home, in telling, I told you that Kate was extremely cold. In showing, I describe her hands and feet being numb, and her fingers being blue, and her shivering. That's the difference between telling and showing. So, hopefully you can see that difference here, that line between the two, and really that difference between being told what Kate does and being shown what Kate experiences and chooses to do. I hope that makes sense.

Agnes: Yeah, it does. So, what exactly are the downsides of too much showing or too much telling? Especially too much showing, since that's what we're told that we're supposed to be doing all the time?

Rebecca: So, yes, I think people are more familiar with what too much telling looks like. It's easier for them to grasp because it gets talked about more. When you're doing too much telling, it keeps the reader distant from what's happening. It prevents them from getting really immersed in what's happening, and it can feel like a scene or a moment is unfinished, or not yet fleshed out. And it can also make the reader think too much about the writer themselves, rather than the story that that author wrote. On the other side of that, like you just mentioned, I don't think that people have nearly as much awareness about what too much showing looks like. What ends up happening if you take that advice of “show, don't tell” to too far of an extreme, is that you end up with a lot of information provided, as in, you're describing all of these kind of things, but the reader doesn't know what to do with that information. And there was one book that I edited years ago that is kind of like the example in my head of this, and it was high fantasy, and the author did great with immersion. Everything was shown. The problem with that was, I would read through a whole scene of descriptions and character interactions, and he was mentioning the tone of voice and the little nonverbal communication that was coming up, and the specific details of a map or something like that that was being shown that felt like it was going to be important. But because all of it was shown, and none of it was told, there was a significant lack of clear meaning to any of it. So, that's what I suggest people watch out for on the other end of that spectrum. You don't want to be hard at either end. But if you are going so far into the descriptions and showing that it's no longer clear why something is being shown, you need to dial that back or introduce more telling. Just a couple of other considerations on these downsides of too much showing or too much telling include, you don't want to over-describe things that aren't worthy of it. So, if something is just a throwaway one-scene mention, that should be described less and probably told more succinctly than if you are showing the reader very important details that are going to be vital in the payoff of the climax kind of thing. So, when you're looking at showing or telling, show the important things more, tell the unimportant things more. We pretty much covered that specifically in episode 36 if anyone wants to go back to that. Another consideration would be that showing can drag your pacing down into purple prose and shoe leather if you're not careful with it. a certain amount of showing is great, but if it starts spiraling off into you just exploring your world without direction, without it going somewhere purposeful, then take a look at that and see if the descriptions need to be there at all. If you need to bring up an entire topic at all, just to be able to show rather than using your telling to avoid that purple prose, that over-description, and just get on with it. And then the last point that I want to mention here with these downsides is if you're doing too much telling, It might not feel like fiction. And I know that's going to sound weird, but non-fiction is a lot more telling. than fiction is. So, if you're trying to write fiction, but you're writing it out like a historical account of exactly how a battle played out in a, “well, General So-and-So did this, and that caused the other army to do this, and blah blah blah…” it loses the magic. And in fiction, particularly in fantasy, which is my wheelhouse, you want to keep that magic going, and that's a big part of why “show, don't tell” is such common advice.

Agnes: I have a funny example, is… you actually were editing one of my early scenes—which, the whole scene got cut, by the way—but you had said, “Why are you describing all of this?” This guy was moving one animal to one thing, and whatever, and you had said something. And so, when I went to edit that particular chapter, I had someone else read, and I was like, “What problems do you see in this chapter?” And that was the very first thing they said, too, is like, “Why were you sharing all that?” And I'm like, “Well, I was showing. I wasn't telling!”

Rebecca: Right.

Agnes: And yet, it was definitely a problem for at least the only two readers that I had read that particular version of that chapter. And so that tells me, okay, sometimes we just need to tell, not show.

Rebecca: Yes, and I think that's a great point of, you shouldn't be showing for the sake of showing. You should be showing something that you would otherwise be telling to get the story told. I think that's a fantastic point.

Agnes: And just so that you know, whenever I ask anybody, I'm like, “Do you agree with Rebecca here?” I don't actually tell them that that's what you said. I ask them a question to see, and then they agree with you, and I'm like, “Dang it!”

Rebecca: That’s a smart way to do it, avoid biasing them, that's good advice for any kind of beta readers or feedback of any kind, yeah.

Agnes: Yeah, but I'll be like, “What do you think about this right here?” Because I'm like, should I edit it? Should I not? And then when they say the same thing, I'm like, “Aw, man! That's a… I guess I need to.” Okay, anyway, back on track. So, how can we know when to tell? I feel like we've already gone over this, so if you want to go on to the next question, that's fine, but—how can a writer tell when to use one or the other?

Rebecca: Sure. So, again, the value of showing as immersion and the value of telling is clear meaning. So, if folks really want to kind of dive into this more deeply, then I'm going to refer them back to episode 36, again, where we talked specifically about not backing off the big moments—and by backing off, I specifically mean shifting from showing to telling. Telling is more distant, so that's this back off from the immersion, or… I don't remember if it was in that episode or a different one… we were talking about narrative focal length, where you're sort of zooming out from the real time to more of an overview. Telling is that, showing is zooming back in. So, on the other side of ‘don't zoom out from your big moments, stay zoomed in,’ on the small moments, that don't matter as much, or you just want to kind of get over and get past, do zoom out, and that means shifting from more of that showing to more telling. And then, sort of, on the last point to answer this question briefly, you can tell when you should be telling or when you should be showing, to some extent, based on your genre lens that you're looking through. So some genres want more showing, some want more telling. Just off the top of my head, fantasy probably wants the most showing, because a big part of it is this immersion in this sort of alternate reality. It's kind of the same for sci-fi. But then, stories where it's just about getting through the plot, so, let's say a murder mystery, that's going to be—again, you don't want to go past the Goldilocks zone—but within the healthy spectrum, it's going to be more telling and slightly less showing. So, genre's important. Your goal with this story can be really important in deciding if you want to show or tell overall, or in a particular scene or chapter, or moment. If your goal is immersion, that should be more showing. But then if your goal is, let's say, you're writing fiction that kind of has a very strong message, like a nonfiction book would—like, you're trying to fictionalize a self-help book, maybe—then clarity of your message is going to be a big part of your goal with that story, and clarity of meaning comes through more telling, so you might have to shift that spectrum up a little bit as well. So, kind of the same thought for your theme, goal and theme are very interchangeable but worth mentioning anyway. The heart of your story can play into those, so if the heart of your story is about immersion, do more showing. If it's about clear meaning, do a little bit more telling, especially in whatever the primary scene in your story that delivers that heart of your story is. And then lastly, considering your audience, or your single audience member like we talked about at the very beginning of this series, can help you make that choice as well. If you are staring at a page, or a scene, or a paragraph, and trying to decide if you want to dial it up into more showing or dial it down into more succinct telling, try to put yourself either in the shoes of your single audience member, or in the seat across the table from them. And imagine if you were telling this story to that person in the way that would connect with them the most, would showing or telling be the better choice for that individual person, and how does that feel in you trying to connect with that individual or that demographic of your audience?

Agnes: So, going off of what you just talked about, you definitely said that genre plays a part. Me being middle grade, you being in adult, how does age of our audience play a part in how much show versus telling we should do?

Rebecca: I think that can be a little bit tricky. I think that middle grade and younger, you have to do a lot of telling. Because as people mature into adults, they have a lot more life experience, which is a big part of it, but through whatever factors are in that, they become better at extrapolating information from clues and hints. So, if you read a… I think they're called board books for toddlers, that's not going to do a lot of showing to get the story across. It's going to say this character did this, and this happened. It's telling, because that's needed. for that audience to understand it clearly. As you age up, I would say when you get into and through the young adult ages, that’s where I tend to see the most scaling up into more showing. So, younger young adult— Did I say that right? Yes, so younger young adult—I don't know why that phrase is breaking my brain. Anyway, that's going to be a fair bit more telling, because you're still communicating with people who maybe need a little bit more direct clarity about what's happening. But then by the time you get into the older young adult age ranges into maybe new adult, they very much want more of the immersion and more of the showing, and more of the being treated like an adult by the author, so you're going to see a pretty significant shift in that spectrum from telling into a lot more showing.

Agnes: I also feel like point of view has a lot to do with it, whether it be first person, third person, or even the character themselves. How do you [think] that plays a part in show versus tell?

Rebecca: So, first-person versus third person absolutely makes a difference, and the difference is primarily in third-person, it can feel more natural to do more telling than it does in first person in certain situations. Hold on, I'm… this is a very complicated topic, so… In first person, it can be tempting to do a lot of telling from an internal place. So, in first-person narration POV, it can get tricky to avoid stating how the character feels, because you're in their head. It would be an “I” statement of, I really don't like this person, or I feel really anxious today, but that's still telling, and you still want to stay in that healthier, more-on-the-show-side-of-things range. So, you still need to reach for experiential descriptions rather than statements. So that might be, My stomach is in knots today, or my hands won't stop shaking, or I see a person across the room, and I think something like, God, not them again. So, you still need to keep the internal things showing, which is the tricky part. On third-person narration, it tends to be easier to slip into telling with the external stuff. So, stating that so-and-so did this thing, because you're not in their experience as much as you would be with first person. So, that's kind of the difference that I can see there. So, with specific character personalities affecting “show, don’t tell,” which I think was the second part of your question there, that is even more complicated and down to the individuals. I mean that in the sense of it's down to the individual author and the individual character. I can absolutely conceive of one book having a character, let's say that both books are past tense, third person, deep POV. So, same sort of narrative-style choices. But, one of these protagonists is a very observant, or just sort of outgoing and passionate person. It's reasonable that they would have a much more showing-heavy point of view and presence in the story and way of telling their own story, then would, let's say, a very repressed, buttoned-down, grumpy, narrow-focus protagonist who might do, in their own head, in their own life, in their own world, in their own story, a lot more just cut and dry statements about things. That's totally reasonable. However, I don't suggest taking that to any extremes, especially on the telling side. If you have a protagonist… I'm trying to think of the most extreme example of this I could see working… it would have to be a first person narrative with a protagonist who just doesn't exist in their world in a particularly embedded way. But even then, if the story is still just all of them making statements, that's not going to be fun to read. So, you still need to try to balance in enough showing that it's within that healthy range, which is still going to be on the sort of showing half of that show-don't-tell spectrum.

Agnes: So, where do the terms exposition or info dump come into this topic? Because I know when I first started writing, and I started listening to a bunch of podcasts, I heard info dump for the first time. And so, like, I know I cannot have been unusual to have just heard that when I first started my writing journey.

Rebecca: Absolutely. Info dump and Exposition are essentially interchangeable terms to start with, so if you know the definition of one, you essentially know the definition of the other. And what info dump and exposition are tends to be when you are doing too much telling, specifically about things that aren't currently happening. So, you can just be telling the scene that's playing out, like I did with my fully fleshed-out examples earlier of “tell, don’t show”—or sorry, “show, don't tell,” the two versus each other. What info dump and exposition are is when that telling shifts away from what's actually happening right now. So that could be backstory, that could be one character going off on a tangent about let's say the world-building about medicine and injury in this world to the other, and it just becomes them going off on this rant about this information that you need the reader to know, but it doesn't really make sense, and it doesn't keep moving the scene that is actively happening forward. That's what info dump and exposition are. Specifically exposition, there's a little bit of a nuance there, where exposition leans a bit more in the direction of, you have a protagonist standing there going, “Hello, my sister, who I haven't seen in 6 years,” kind of thing, where it doesn't feel natural to actually get said in that scene, but you're trying to present this information to the reader in a way that isn't telling in the narration, but it's still expositional when it comes through dialogue, so. I hope that sets up those, um, definitions a little bit. Beyond that, I would say that exposition and info dump are most often the terms you're going to see used by feedback readers when you are landing too far on that too-much-telling side. So, keeping an eye out for those, just as red flags, to tell you that you're dealing with this bigger issue, can be helpful.

Agnes: So can we still provide necessary exposition which the reader needs to understand stuff in the story without it feeling like an info dump?

Rebecca: Absolutely. And if you have information that needs to be provided to the reader, one of the easiest ways to do that is just to make it more relevant. So, let's go back to that sentence that I used of, “Hello, my sister, who I haven't seen in 6 years.” That's exposition, and that's not good exposition. So instead, you can present that information, let's say, again, you're in first person, deep POV—that could look shown, which is an info dump, more like I saw a face across the room and realized it was my sister, and I had to decide between running away, because I don't want to see her again after 6 years, or dealing with the uncomfortable conversation I know we're about to have. That's more of a showing of the same information without it being exposition or info dump. So, one of the most important tools in anyone's arsenal, as far as I'm concerned, as a writer, which I've definitely mentioned before, is the idea of presenting information just in time versus just in case. So, if you are telling the reader, or showing the reader—trying not to get my vocabulary confusing here. If you're presenting information to the reader, in the moment that things would become confusing or frustrating if they didn't have that information, it's not going to feel like info dump. So if you need to tell your reader all about the medicine tradition of your fantasy world and how broken bones are dealt with, have your protagonist break a bone, and go to a hospital, and get treated. That's how you make that information relevant just in time for it to be needed, versus meeting a healer at a pub and having them just info dump their job or their perspective on this topic to the protagonist in a situation where this information isn't relevant right now. It's being presented just in case the reader needs it later, and to be clear—and I don't think I've made this point other times I've mentioned this—it still counts as just in case if the reader does need it later. The difference is delayed payoff for that information getting explained, or immediate gratification from it.

That is the biggest tool here, but beyond that, I will just mention that moving where something comes up can make a big difference in whether or not it feels like exposition or info dump. And part of that is finding somewhere where it is more immediately relevant, or more important, to the protagonist and how things are playing forward, and just picking up that paragraph, putting it in this better context for it. And then, you know, there's just sort of this idea of sprinkling versus dumping. So, info dump is a term that I most often see when it's a full paragraph or a few paragraphs, or a full page, or a few pages that, again, gets away from, “these are the things that are actually happening that I can show playing out through sensory description” and wanders off into, “but this worldbuilding, and you need to know this about the government, and the military structure, and whatever else.” If you can, and if you want to try to fix that, try breaking that dump up into much smaller sections and spread them out. Sprinkle them throughout the book. Again, try to find spots where each individual detail is immediately relevant. So, let's say you have half a page that is describing the military ranks in your sci-fi world. Okay, that's info dump, that's not great. Let's take the one detail of, this is the title for the highest commanding officers in the field—and we're going to take that, and we're going to put that detail alone the first time the first character with that rank shows up and starts giving orders. Great. Alright, now we're going to take the sentence that says how the starships are powered, and we're going to take that, and we're going to go put it in the spot where they first start a starship engine. And by sprinkling it out, that completely removes the feeling of it being info dump, especially since when it's spread out, there's a higher chance that you could rewrite the sentence so that it is showing versus telling.

Agnes: So, wrapping up here, I just have one last question. When we do get feedback from alpha or beta readers—and I know you kind of touched on this already—are there things they might say or notice about our work that will indicate that we are leaning way too much for show versus telling, yet might not use those words exactly.

Rebecca: Sure. If you're leaning too much into showing, over-telling, what you might get is just a lot of confusion. When I've encountered the rare books where they did too much showing and not enough telling, the result is just that I'm reading through, and things are happening, and I'm getting lots of century description, but I'm really confused about why and where things are going, and why this character made that choice, that kind of stuff. So, if you're getting a lot of confusion, that's probably an indication to at least check if too much showing and not enough telling is a reason. It's more common that readers will see and give you feedback that you're doing too much telling versus showing. And from my experience, readers and everybody knows that advice. So, it is very likely that if a feedback reader of any skill level is picking up on that, they will use that exact wording, so that's not too much of a concern. But, on the off chance that someone does want to avoid that wording, or hasn't heard it, or whatever, definitely watch out for the bits that I mentioned earlier, but also for people saying that it feels like the POV is too distant. Or, saying that your author voice is coming through too clearly, or that it feels like you're holding the reader at arm's length. Those are all wordings that I've seen that basically say, “I'm not being immersed enough.” And that right there is telling you that you're doing too much telling and not enough showing. So, I think that's everything that I can think of right now.

Agnes: Well, thank you so much for sharing all that. I really do appreciate it.

Rebecca: Absolutely. Next week, we will be doing the first of two episodes specifically on self-editing around names, and tasks on that topic that I think every writer should do. For now, I will thank everyone who follows along with this series. If you know any authors who are nearing the end of their first draft, or struggling with their revisions or rewriting their novel, please send them this podcast. The more authors we can help understand and finish the process of self-editing, the happier I will be. Thank you all, and thank you, Agnes.

Agnes: Thank you so much.

See you next time!

Reducing Redundancy: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 41

Tue, 14 Oct 2025 21:42:40 GMT

Reducing Redundancy: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript…

Just for a little added clarity, here’s an example of saying the same thing four times actually spelled out:

Kate fidgeted and avoided making eye contact, her tone nervous. “I’m sorry, I’m just really uncomfortable,” she said apprehensively.

Double dialogue tag aside, you only need ONE of these instances of showing OR telling that Kate is nervous. Pick a favorite, and scrap the rest. So, would you pick 1) her nonverbal cues of fidgeting and avoiding eye contact, 2) describing her tone in narration, 3) having her state in dialogue how she is feeling, or 4) or stating her apprehension in the dialogue tag? Deciding in this exercise might help you make similar calls in your own writing. I would personally choose option 1, because that is more showing than telling, more than the other three options.

Lastly, the other episode in this series referenced to in this one is:

Episode 21: Word Count

Happy editing!

Episode 41 Overview:

Reducing Redundancy

"Have I introduced any duplicate scenes, scene fragments, or lines in editing which I need to fix? Am I saying anything twice or both telling and showing something when one would do? What words or phrases am I overusing?"

In our Story Savvy Series, this writing podcast for authors dives into how to avoid repetition in writing and cutting word count effectively through intentional revision. With developmental editing advice from Rebecca Hartwell, this podcast for fantasy authors offers clear self-editing tips for writers, helping you polish your manuscript and strengthen your story structure and editing skills.

In this episode of the Story Savvy Self-Editing Series, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring fantasy author Agnes Wolfe dive into the art of eliminating repetition in fiction. Rebecca breaks down how to spot redundant scenes, recognize showing and telling overlaps, and apply practical techniques to cut word count while keeping clarity and emotional impact.

In this episode:

Understanding what counts as repetition or redundancy
Recognizing when you’re showing and telling the same thing
Avoiding word echoes and overused words
Trimming word count without losing meaning
Deciding when repetition serves a purpose in storytelling

Recommended Resources:

Developmental Editing
Agnes Wolfe: www.agneswolfeauthor.com
Pro Writing Aid: https://prowritingaid.com/
Speechify: https://speechify.com/
The Alexa App: https://www.amazon.com/Alexa-App/b?node=18354642011

See you next week for episode 42: Exposition & Info-Dump: Show vs Tell!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 41 Transcript:

Reducing Redundancy

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 41 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We've covered a bunch in this series so far, including last week's episode where we took a break week and talked about using AI as an author or an editor. Today, we are going to take a look at reducing redundancy through self-editing.

By the end of this episode, you will hopefully know what does and doesn't count as repetition or redundancy that's worth fixing, and be able to use this tool to reduce your word count and speed up your pacing if either is needed. Joining me to ask all the questions, as always, is my good friend and co-host, Agnes Wolff. Welcome.

I'm probably unusual in this, but I realized that I have written the same scene multiple times in some of my earlier edits. I literally have had two scenes that say the exact same thing in different parts of my manuscript, because apparently in my head, it was such an important scene that I put it in twice. So, by this round in the edits, I feel like I have already caught up with a lot of those issues. So, why did you choose to put this particular topic towards the end of the series, because I feel like I would catch it if it said anything twice.

Rebecca: Sure. If you are in a position where you were originally putting in a scene more than once, then yes, you've probably already caught that. What we're looking for here is more so things that were introduced, duplications that were introduced during the editing process up to this point. And I wanted to still bring it up this late in the series, because I have just seen so many duplicate scenes, or event moments, or just overstating repetition coming in from my clients in their manuscripts. It is absolutely something that some writers have a good eye for catching. But this episode is for those who maybe are struggling with that a little bit more, or need to think about this a bit more intentionally. So, the first consideration is that we aren't just talking about whole scenes or events that happen twice, whether or not it's with the same wording. We are, as you alluded to, well into the polishing stages here, so we are only looking to delete anything that is said twice that doesn't have to be. That might be a whole chapter that you moved long ago in this editing process—so, you know, 9 months ago in this series, maybe you're like, “Okay, this scene doesn't work here, I need to move it over here,” but then you forgot to delete it the first time. Repetition might also be a passage or a paragraph that you rescued from a deleted scene like we've talked about. But then, 3 months later in your process, you forgot that you had already rescued that little gem that you liked, so you rescued it again but added it to a different chapter, and now just that paragraph or that moment is in their twice. But most importantly for this stage in the editing process, I'm encouraging folks to look for the following instances of repetition: The first is where you tell the reader something repeatedly in totally different ways. Sometimes this is two sentences and a paragraph that establish the same thing, only with totally different wording, or two characters saying the same thing in a conversation. It can also be spots where you tell the reader something through a narrative statement, but then also show the same thing more immersively. Or maybe you show your character fidgeting and avoiding eye contact, then you say that their tone is nervous, and then you have them say that they are uncomfortable in their dialogue, and then you use the dialogue tag of, “they asked the thing apprehensively.” That's essentially saying the same thing four different times. So, in all of these cases, the goal in this topic of self-editing is to remove all instances except for one that is your favorite for whatever reason you want to pick favorites by and delete all of the rest so that you're not bogging the reader down in any sense of, “They just said that, why are they saying it again?” And because I've had this conversation with other writers, I will also mention here that if you are double or triple or quadruple stating something because you are afraid the reader is going to miss that vital information or clue, then your approach is fundamentally flawed. Instead of saying it again, say it better. Make that moment more of a turning point for the scene. Add more emotion to it, build up resistance to saying it out loud before it bursts out, that kind of stuff. Saying it once, more impactfully, beats saying it multiple times to make sure that it isn't missed. And that is a pretty solid blanket statement I am comfortable making for pretty much all books. It's also just worth mentioning that if you are both showing and telling the same thing, I generally suggest keeping the showing example and scrapping the telling version of it. You really only need one or the other, not both, and unless you have a strong, specific reason to tell, such as brevity or clarity of your meaning, then showing is more immersive, and so is usually the better choice. The second way that small-scale repetition might show up at this stage in the editing is using the same word too many times in close proximity. I tend to call these “word echoes,” but there are lots of other terms for this. With any word that could easily not come up for a whole chapter, so it's not a every-sentence, every page kind of word—let's say like the word lunch—then using it more than once within, let's say, a paragraph can feel repetitive, and that should be adjusted. But for words that naturally have to be used more frequently—like, let's say, the word “as,” A-S—then the standard is more to avoid using it so often that it's repetitive within a single sentence. Or, so often that the rhythm of its use becomes noticeable within a paragraph or a page. I personally find that listening to writing, be that reading it out loud to myself or using a text-to-speech software, is by far the best and easiest way to catch these word echoes at that microscale. So, circling back around to the heart of your original question, even when you feel confident that you caught all of the repetition in a story, especially at the larger scale, we all have blind spots, especially when we've been busy paying attention to and watching out for all of these other things in the self-editing process. So, taking a moment to focus on nothing but finding and fixing redundancy and repetition is worth doing, even if it's just for an hour. Lastly—and I'm sorry this was such a long answer—repeats of fragments can be much harder to spot than a whole, and this applies to sentences, this applies to moments, to beats, to scenes, whatever. For example, I once edited a manuscript for a client where the writer had accidentally left in the second half of an old chapter following the full new version of that chapter, because they just stopped deleting at a page break or whatever and missed that. So, this is into the final check stage, where you do want to make sure, even if you think you got it all right, that you actually did.

Agnes: And I feel like having a second set of eyes is an important part in this process.

Rebecca: It absolutely can be. And this is one of those topics where outside feedback can be disproportionately helpful. But, it's a point, a topic, where it's really not that much of a burden on that outside reader if a story is in particularly bad shape on this topic. So if anyone listening, or you, are looking for something to prioritize saving themselves time on, to instead really rely on that outside feedback and those outside readers to catch, this topic of repetition and redundancy should be very high on that list. However, the efficacy, the effectiveness of outside feedback in catching this goes down the longer a period of time that feedback read is spread out over. For example, a casual beta reader who reads your book over 5 or 6 weeks won't be able to catch nearly as much of these issues of repetition and redundancy as, for example, I could do doing one full, intense read per week when I'm doing my developmental edits for clients. The longer it's spread out, the harder it is to remember that you read that before. That this scene fragment already came up, that someone already established this plot point, that kind of thing.

Agnes: And are there any tools that you would recommend out there that might help you with this?

Rebecca: Yes, so as I've already mentioned, consuming your writing through any form of audio can be an incredibly helpful in catching repetition or redundancy, which your eyes either don't catch or think looks fine as you're skimming through. These days, a lot of the standard word processing softwares like Google Docs or Word have some sort of text-to-speech function built in, but those voices can sound a little bit jarring and artificial to me, so I also recommend Speechify, which is a dedicated platform for that, particularly the voice called Emma. I think that that is the most natural text-to-speech voice out there. And then, sometimes, just the find and replace or search function can be really helpful with catching these repeats and redundancies. Most writers, including myself, very much so, have some idea of what words they tend to overuse. In my case, it's all variations and uses of the word “eye.” So, whether you do or don't already know what words you personally tend to overuse, you can pay attention to that over time and build yourself a list. Then, in the self-editing stage here, go search for each of those words. It's totally up to you how many individual uses across the whole book count as too many, or how close two of these uses have to be to count as requiring that one of them be changed to avoid that echo feeling. But just do what you can and decide those sort of thresholds for yourself. The last resource that I will mention for this is ProWritingAid. It has several functions for catching redundancy and repetition at different scales, and is, if anything, more sensitive and more picky on this than I suggest authors actually be. Those specific functions within that program are, if memory serves, the ‘overused’ check. It's just called ‘overused’. The ‘all repeats’ check. And the ‘echoes’ check. But again, decide your own thresholds. ProWritingAid's job is to show you all of them, so that you could get rid of all of them, and I don't think that's necessary or healthy, so take it with a grain of salt. And then lastly, for what it's worth, I generally recommend only uploading one chapter at a time to ProWritingAid, but uploading the whole manuscript just once, dealing with that lag and that processing issue, and checking for any repeated phrases of over, let's say, 10 words in a row, just one time can be helpful in this.

Agnes: I have to tell on myself. So, there— I just said one of them—I just said both of them! Okay, so apparently, I use the word “so” and “just” so many times that I literally took my entire manuscript, very recently, and I deleted all of the “so”s. Literally, I put delete all, because I had so many “so”s and so many “just”s that I felt I could do that, and when I went to do my read-through, I only added a handful of them back.

Rebecca: That’s an important point to bring up. Sometimes if you try to delete all, they are actually needed here and there, so yeah, check that.

Agnes: Yeah, but I mean I had, like, almost a thousand of “so”s and “just”s.

Rebecca: Yep, I'm glad you were aware of that in your own writing, that's great!

Agnes: Well, the thousand was actually prior to you reading it. But I noticed that I still, when I add a scene or I adjust the scene, I'm constantly adding “just” and “so” back in. And so, I have to go back, and I'm like, “Okay, delete all from this chapter, re-read this chapter, okay, now it sounds good.” Because you rarely actually need the word “so” and “just”. But anyway, I do have a question about this. So, is the avoidance of repetition or redundancy just a rule for writing in general, or is there more of a reason to extend that?

Rebecca: Both, for sure. It is a rule, but not an arbitrary one. So, here are some of the actual benefits backing up that rule. Number one, it can be really helpful in slimming your word count, which, from my experience, is a goal for more authors than it is the opposite. So, more authors tend to need to slim than authors need to expand their word count. The second advantage is it can help keep your momentum going more smoothly or faster, if you are more constantly moving right along to the next thing instead of rehashing things that have already come up. Number three is it improves your craft skill and professionalism, particularly as it is perceived by readers. And four, it helps avoid unintended moments of deja vu for your readers, which can pull them out of the story as they investigate or wonder if someone moved their bookmark, or if the passage got plagiarized from a different book they read, or if they did read this book years ago and just forgot, that kind of thing.

Agnes: So, we've talked about a lot of different types of repetition. What types of repetition do you see most often in a writer's manuscript?

Rebecca: I'm not sure that I've seen an across-the-board prevalence in any particular direction. But I have found that most of the authors who have a significant repetition or redundancy habit worth mentioning tend to lean always towards larger-scale issues of repetition, such as copying and pasting whole chunks around without double-checking or cleaning them up, or making sure you don't have duplicate scenes, that kind of thing. Or the author will land almost entirely on the small-scale side, where the big-scale stuff is nice and clean but they are both showing and telling a lot of individual moments, or overusing certain words and vocabulary throughout.

Agnes: And I feel like sometimes repetition is important. When would it might be important? Is there a time when it would be important?

Rebecca: Great question, yes. So, here's what I can think of on that right off the top of my head here. First, I mention regularly that if an aspect is worth including in a story, it's worth mentioning at least 3 times. And using similar enough wording each of those times so that it's clear that all of those mentions are about the same thing, or the same person, or the plot point, is an important part of that. Just make sure that your three mentions of whatever it is are spread out in the book. Same thing for character descriptions. If you describe something new about a character every time you mention them, that can potentially get confusing, especially if that particular character doesn't have a lot of page time, so the reader may struggle more remembering the context for the name. Third, I'd say it's important if you have a certain in-world passage with specific wording which is important to the plot or world. This might be a prophecy that has very specific wording. It could be a call to action, like the resistance fighters, whatever their battle cry is. It could be a quote from a song or a book or the like that you invented for your world which is deeply embedded in that character or plot. If the specific wording of that phrase or that song, paragraph, whatever, matters, try to use that word for word 3 times. That's going to pay off for the reader more than it's going to bog them down. Yeah, I'm sure I could come up with more exceptions to that avoid repetition guideline, but those are the big ones that I can think of right now.

Agnes: I know in early drafts I didn't care too much about redundancy, especially in words and stuff at different stages. So, at what point should we start caring about, maybe, or maybe even ignoring the repetitiveness of our writing? I know that early drafts, I did not look for as many as I do in later ones. When should we start being concerned, I guess, is what my question is.

Rebecca: I think you're spot on there. I think that this is an issue that you should not care too much about early on, and I'm bringing it up here in this nearing-the-final-check stage because that's where it's going to do you the most good, because at this point is where you've probably introduced the most redundancy that you now need to go clean up. So, I would say that you can pay some attention to the big-chunk repetition while you are still doing the global-level and scene-level edits that we did earlier in this series, but that's not super important. Definitely ignore repetition issues until you get down into these polishing stages. Even, like I said earlier, if you need to let something slide until after your beta reads and dev edits, this topic is a good candidate for that. However, this needs to be given full attention for a day, let's say, before publication, and ideally before you hire a line editor or a copy editor, or a proofreader.

Agnes: So, why do you think authors tend to re-explain things or restate themselves? Do you feel that is an insecurity that the readers aren't getting it, or do you think it is usually that they just lose track of their own writing?

Rebecca: Either, both. I think it totally depends on the individual. And I think that different forms of repetition tend to come from different places. For example, whole chunks of scenes or whole scenes getting repeated tends to come from a place of disorganization or absent-mindedness. Saying the same thing over and over with different wording within the story—be that throughout the whole story or in close proximity—seems to come from a lack of confidence or anxiety, like you just mentioned. Pretty much any form can come from losing track of what you wrote, or losing track of the tweaks that you already made earlier in editing. And overusing a certain word—so, in my example, the word “eyes”—seems to come from just a pattern of language that everyone develops for themselves over their lifetime, over their growth as a writer, or being predisposed towards highlighting a certain sense or emotion, like I think is the case with my obsession with describing where people are looking and the look in their eyes and that kind of thing. It really just depends. And if naming the underlying cause for patterns of repetition that you catch in your own writing is helpful, by all means, explore that. But I personally think that for most folks, just recognizing those glitch patterns, or one-offs, fixing what needs to be fixed, and moving right along is probably more productive.

Agnes: I know with myself, I wanted to have my story start earlier than it did. I kind of knew that even before you edited and you just kind of confirmed what I needed to do, so I had tried editing those 5 chapters, trying to condense them into two chapters many times, and what finally worked was I took colored pencil and a highlighter, and I highlighted different things, and then I was able to see a lot of repetitions. So, with my cutting back on the repetitions, it helped with pacing. What are some other reasons why people might want to trim their story?

Rebecca: So, I feel like we went over this a little bit earlier, but I do have more thoughts here. First of all, many editors charge by word count, so fewer words means a lighter financial burden for getting the manuscript edited. Number two would be similar considerations around potentially getting an audiobook made for your story down the road, which typically charge per hour of finished audio, and you can also consider the printing costs to maximize the profit that you can get from selling each individual book. The third benefit to using this specifically to slim word count would be, in both indie and traditional publishing, genres have word count and length “Goldilocks zones,” which we did a whole episode on earlier in the series. More writers tend to end up longer than is acceptable than I see authors ending up too short. So, slimming down is often needed to fit within your market, or to get interest from an agent or a publisher. The most common pacing issue is things slowing down too much. And so removing these slower, repetitive, or otherwise less important or interesting bits or versions of imparting information can help things move forward better. And then lastly, the more you slim, the fewer words you have to go through in your next round of edits, potentially saving yourself time and frustration. I'm sure there's more, but yeah, those are the highlights.

Agnes: Can I have to ask, because you mentioned audiobooks, are you planning on turning your books into audiobooks?

Rebecca: At some point, yes, but that is unfortunately not remotely on the horizon yet. So, when I have the spoons, I'm thinking I might wait until I have finished publishing all 9 books in the series, and then get them kind of all put together by one narrator, since I'm personally very bothered when the narrator changes in the middle of an audiobook series, so yes, but not imminently in any kind of sense.

Agnes: I just had to ask because I am on the third book, and I want to read them, but I have trouble sitting down and just reading. I love to listen to audiobooks, and so I was like, “Oh, if she has that on the horizon, that would be very good for me.”

Rebecca: So, random little tidbit for folks, you can download the Alexa app onto any kind of phone. I have an iPhone, and it works great, and you can just voice-to-text tell her, “Hey, Alexa, read me this book by this author,” and she'll read it to you, and it's not a bad voice at all. So, that's how I turn books that don't have audiobooks into audiobooks for myself all the time.

Agnes: I'm so glad I asked! Because I've been doing a lot more audiobooks than I have been doing actual reading books lately. Anyway, I want to wrap up with the last question. Can you go a little more into what you meant when you said you don't want to both show and tell, even if it's with a completely different wording?

Rebecca: Yes, in fact, I have so much to say on this topic that we are going to do that as our whole next episode for next week. So, I will avoid being repetitive or redundant, and just covered it all in that episode.

Agnes: Awesome! Well, thank you so much. I look forward to next week, and thank you for helping with this particular topic.

Rebecca: Absolutely! Yeah. So, next week, we will continue in this theme of a couple of episodes here of slimming things down in healthy ways, and talk about avoiding and fixing exposition and info dump, which are very much related to that show-don't-tell. For now, I would really like to thank everyone following along with this series. If you know any other authors who are nearing the end of their first draft, or struggling with revising or rewriting their novel, please send them this podcast. The more authors that we can help understand and finish the process of self-editing, the better and the happier I will be. Thank you, Agnes.

Agnes: And she's an amazing developmental editor.

Rebecca: Thank you.

Agnes: Thank you!

See you next time!

Break Week: AI In Writing & Editing: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 40

Tue, 07 Oct 2025 22:00:00 GMT

AI In Writing & Editing: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript…

As promised, here are some external articles on the topic of AI, a discussed, within three subcategories.

First, The Creative Penn Podcast by Joanna Penn is a great, positive source on AI for writers and other author-industry professionals.

Second, here are three articles on the environmental impact of generative AI from MIT , from USA Today , and from The BBC if you're looking for an overseas perspective.

Third, here are five articles on more phycological or developmental impacts of generative AI from Forbes (try using an Incognito window to bypass the paywall, if needed), The Wall Street Journal , IFL Science , Substack , and Futurism .

I highly encourage anyone interested in this topic to do more research on their own, as this all is very much just the tip of the iceberg.

Lastly, the other episodes in this series referenced in this one are:

Episode 19: Plot Holes & Character Inconsistencies

Episode 38: Dialing Up Uniqueness

Happy editing!

Episode 40 Overview:

Break Week: AI In Writing & Editing

BREAK WEEK TOPIC - Catch up on other topics while having a little something to think about!

This week’s podcast for fantasy authors explores AI and the writing process and what it means for creative integrity. Rebecca and Agnes dive into AI and storytelling ethics, examining ethical AI use for authors and the environmental cost of AI tools. Together, they unpack the cognitive impact of AI use, the importance of protecting author rights, and how writers can continue editing with integrity in an increasingly digital world.

In this episode of the Story Savvy Series, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring fantasy author Agnes Wolfe explore the complex and often controversial role of AI in modern writing. Rebecca breaks down the differences between generative and assistive AI, examines the environmental and ethical implications of these technologies, and considers their long-term effects on both the creative process and the cultural value of storytelling.

In this episode:

• Understanding different types of AI (Generative vs. Assistive)

• Dangers of using generative AI as an assistive tool

• Ethical considerations for writers around using AI

• The value of human creativity versus AI-generated work

• The importance of transparency when incorporating AI

Chapters:

[00:00] Intro

[03:17] Generative versus Assistive AI

[05:26] When and How AI Fits into Editing

[7:51] Why You Should Avoid Using Generative AI as an Assistive Tool

[12:18] Environmental Impact of AI

[14:58] Ethical Considerations for Writers

[22:08] The Value of Human Creativity

[25:42] The “Use It or Lose It” Philosophy

[30:08] Long-Term Effects on Creativity and Culture

[33:16] Recognizing AI Writing & Responsible Use

[34:12] Optimistic Considerations For Using AI

[41:20] A Final Caution for Authors

Recommended Resources:

• Developmental Editing

•Agnes Wolfe: www.agneswolfeauthor.com

See you next week for episode 41: Reducing Redundancy!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 40 Transcript:

Break Week: AI In Writing & Editing

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 40 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We have covered so much in this series so far, including last week's episode on polishing your narrative style choices. Today, we are going to take a bit of a break week in this series and talk about the use of AI as authors. By the end of this episode, you will all hopefully feel better informed on this topic from a writer's perspective specifically, and have a better grasp on whether you do or don't want to use any of these tools in your writing processes going forward. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolfe. Hello.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later next year, and also the host and founder of Authors Alcove. I'm here today to tackle this often very polarizing topic. I know technically, I am the one who brought this up as a possible topic, and part of it is because I just think it's so incredibly important to talk about, and the nuances of it, and what parts of AI might be more beneficial, and what ones are more hurtful, and what ones we should avoid, and what ones that could possibly be helpful if we choose to use them. Just to start the topic off, I still want to hear why you also felt that this was an important topic to discuss, especially during a self-editing course.

Rebecca: Sure. I feel it is important largely because it is a very present topic in the author space. It has been for a while, and it probably will continue to be. I wanted to talk about this topic in this series and at this stage in the series for two reasons, primarily. First, it is good to take breaks in any long process, and this felt like the right place to take one, as folks catch up on the scene-level and line-level topics, which made up the middle of this course. So, if you're still working on catching up, this week is for you. The second reason that I wanted to talk about this, or at least accepted your invitation to talk about this, was that from this point on in this self-editing process, I personally feel like AI becomes much more acceptable and potentially actually helpful to use as we get into the copy editing, formatting, and other true polishing-level self-editing steps.

Agnes: And I think, before we really get into the opinions and those sort of things, I think it's important to clarify what types of AI there are out there, and what we mean specifically, like generative versus other kinds. So, do you mind just talking about that particular aspect in relationship to self-editing, which we are talking about today?

Rebecca: Yeah, so today we are specifically talking about two different kinds of AI. There's assistive AI, which has functionally been around for about a decade but took leaps and bounds forward with the recent advent of the AI zeitgeist. Assistive AI includes narrow-purpose spell-checking software, like Grammarly or ProWritingAid. It includes text-to-speech and speech-to-text functions, like Speechify or Dragon Dictation. And it includes formatting software, like Atticus or Vellum formatting. And then, on the other side of that, we are also talking about generative AI, which is what really exploded onto the digital scene over the last 3 years. Generative AI includes things like ChatGPT, or Midjourney, or anything else that works with prompts, creates content of any kind, rather than suggesting or implementing adjustments to human-made content, which generates or iterates content based on existing media collections, or collects or mashes together existing content into “new” forms, that sort of thing. In this episode, I will always clarify which of the two kinds I'm talking about for each point, if I remember. But if I fail to do so, if I fail to clarify that, it's probably more accurate to assume that I am talking about generative AI specifically, as that's simply what most of the relevant global discourse on the topic has been around.

Agnes: So, I think one of the most important things to discuss is when it is okay to use AI during the editing process, and are there certain programs you feel are safer for authors to use? And also, what is maybe not safe, and you should probably avoid?

Rebecca: I think that it's totally fine to use assistive AI, specifically in self-editing, especially from this point on as you get into more and more granular sort of lenses that you're looking through at your manuscript. The assistive AI programs, softwares, whatever, aren't feeding your writing into large language learning models, which essentially plagiarizes your writing. The assistive programs don't fall into many of the ethical or environmental issues that generative AI programs do as well, and really are assistive. Helping you to do the work yourself rather than doing the work for you. Assistive AI programs also won't flag your work as being AI to the same degree that running them through generative AI programs, even if you're trying to use them for assistive purposes, will. And then it's also worth noting here that all of the AI checkers out there, where you can upload work and it'll tell you whether or not it was AI-generated, they're pretty far from reliable, unfortunately, and will flag pretty much everything. So, the two assistive AI programs that I personally use myself the most and generally recommend to anyone who asks are ProWritingAid for spelling, grammar, punctuation, plagiarism checks, and style checks for your writing. And then I also recommend Speechify. which is a text-to-speech software I find incredibly useful in getting my brain to consume a story in a new way, which allows me to catch a whole new set of issues than I can when I'm reading with my eyes yet again.

Agnes: So, I didn't know how to prep you for this question, so you're going to have to use your brain on this one. One of the things that I was thinking about is that I know when I first started—because I have used ChatGPT, but I tried using it in an assistive way—I learned that it doesn't really work very well as an assistive program. Do you mind just kind of talking about why you should avoid using? And you did kind of mention it, so I'm like, okay, you have opinions, so this is a good one! Why would we want to avoid using generative programs for assistive? Like, I can give some examples later if you want, but I have a feeling that you have your own thoughts on that.

Rebecca: Sure. So, the difference is what it is designed to do. And assistive AI is usually designed with a specific purpose. For example, ProWritingAid. It has different layers to it, but all of them have a very narrow, very specific purpose, and that is to help, that is to do whatever job it has been assigned or claims to do. Generative AI’s purpose is to generate. And so, that can be generating ideas, that can be generating feedback, that can be generating content. The problem is they aren't very good at sticking to the truth in whatever context you're looking at. They also tend to over-engineer things, because they are reaching for intelligence. That's why it's called artificial intelligence. They're trying to essentially interact with users as a human brain. And when you're trying to use generative programs for assistive purposes, first of all, like I mentioned, you're putting your work into these learning programs which are plagiarizing it. So, that should be enough on its own for you to not want to put any of your work into a generative AI, even if you're using it for assistive purposes. There are also much higher ethical and environmental costs to generative over assistive. In fact, assistive, it's not really even worth talking about, that’s not what that AI does. But generative, absolutely, that is the case. So, there's a big difference there, and if you are coming to a decision for yourself that you do want to use assistive AI, but for whatever reasons resonate with you, you want to avoid generative AI, then that means you need to find purpose-made assistive AI programs, rather than trying to use generative AI programs like ChatGPT, Grok, Midjourney, whatever, for assistive purposes. Does that answer your question?

Agnes: It does. One of the things that I know that happens… So, when I first used ChatGPT, I was like, “Oh, this works for emails.” And so I would literally write my email and say, “Can you format it so it does the bullet things and all of that?” And I ended up running into too many problems of it wanting to use its own voice, so it would change some of the wording. And that is one of the things that I realized, because I was trying to use it assistively, but it's a generative program. And so I think that's important to talk about, too, is you need to be cautious trying to use a generative program as assistive. Like, “Oh, can you please proofread this for me?” It's going to change it for you. And also, like you said about the plagiarism thing.

Rebecca: And you don't know if it's going to be proofreading by, let's say, the Chicago Manual of Style or what it considers the standard grammatical usage of Reddit. Like, you don't know where it's drawing its sources, because it won't tell you where it's drawing its sources, it might not even know. But then, for your formatting example, that's a great example to bring up, because there are purpose-made, narrow-focus, assistive AI programs for formatting that don't have all of these other issues. Their job is to format, and because that's their only job, they're really good at it.

Agnes: You know, that is one of the things that I was really surprised about. Because I started to use it as email, and I was like, “Oh, this is going to be so great!” And then I started to realize it's changing what I'm saying. And even when I said only proofread, I thought, you know, it's just emails, it's not a big deal. But it ended up actually feeling like it was kind of a big deal as I started to use it, and so even for emails, I have started to stray away from even that. But one of the things that I did not realize about AI when I first started using it was that there are actual costs to the environment. To me, I'm just like, it's just a computer. Do you mind talking a little bit about that?

Rebecca: Essentially, yeah, it's really bad. There is a very high cost, specifically on the water consumption and global warming front. Generative AI is a disproportionately large factor in freshwater scarcity concerns over the next decade to half century. And we are seeing electricity costs going up across the board due to already subsidized demands for these data processing centers associated with generative AI. I think I saw a headline just yesterday that in cities that are near these data processing plants, people's electric bills have gone up 200-plus percent in the time that this has been a factor. I don't really want to talk about this too much in depth or detail here. I frankly find it super difficult to engage with as someone who deals with a lot of depression and anxiety around environmental issues. But I will definitely link a handful of articles specifically on the environmental impact in the show notes for this episode on my blog.

Agnes: And that was actually something that I was completely unaware of when I first used generative AI. I had even done some of the photos and stuff like that back then. And I still have them in my thing, because I'm not going to delete them since I have them, but I always have a little thing that says “AI-generated.” But I do even try to avoid making little graphics, even on Canva. That was where I did a lot of the graphics, was Canva, because Canva does have a generative portion in it. And I had no idea that had an impact on the environment, because to me, it was just like, “Oh, it's just typing on the computer.” Totally oblivious.

Rebecca: Yeah, there's a lot of distance and separation there between the individual usage and the impact, which can make it harder to fully grasp.

Agnes: And that's why I wanted to make sure that it was brought up during this, and I'm sorry that it is a kind of a painful topic. Because I don't think that I'm the only one that is totally oblivious, and I have a feeling there's still a lot of people who have absolutely no clue that every time that they use it, that it's actually having an environmental impact. So, I know we both agree on a lot of the aspects of the use of AI, especially when it comes to the ethics of generative AI, although you sit closer to anti-AI side than I do, where I use it for several aspects, specifically my business side of things. What are some ethical things we should consider when we're using it more freely that I might not have thought of before.

Rebecca: I want to start off with, yes, I am fairly anti-AI. I try to not take any hard stances, especially when I'm having a productive conversation about a topic, so I do want to say that if someone wants to explore some of the more positive takes or pro-AI takes, particularly as an author, I highly recommend finding the episodes of The Creative Pen Podcast which cover the topic of AI. Joanna Penn, who does that podcast, is great and much more optimistic about the whole topic than I am, so I will link to at least one of her episodes on the topic in the show notes as well. But yeah, I tend to lean cautious of AI, and here's just a short list of bullet points of why that has developed to be my stance. The environmental concerns that we just touched on are definitely number one. Number two would be, if you don't use a skill or a muscle, be that physical or mental muscles, you will lose it. Almost everyone on the planet has learned a skill in school that they couldn't even begin to use again now, and the classic example of that would be algebra or calculus. We all experience that. So, why do we all lose mental skills like that? It's because we stop using it. So, if you want to keep, let alone improve, your ability to come up with story ideas or structure them into usable plots, draft them in immersive and interesting ways, and edit them into life-changing or market-dominating published books, you need to keep fully using those abilities yourself, or you will lose them. Third on my list is how much harder it is to get noticed or make a living as an author in a market flooded by AI dreck. If you want your book to get noticed, if you want to have a presence, you need to be pushing to remove the AI garbage from muddying the signal. Fourth on my list is, even if you choose to use AI and it's not done from a place of laziness or a lack of care or quality in your specific instance, that is how it's going to be perceived more and more as time goes along, which can have disastrous long-term effects and impacts on a creative person's career. Fifth on my list is, the quality of AI-generated writing is very poor and predictable compared to human-generated, and needs a lot more time and effort, and probably expertise to make it decent enough for publication—assuming, of course, that you have standards for quality for what you want to put out in the world, which most “AI writers,” especially the ones preaching that lifestyle, tend not to. Sixth on my list is, it is a disproportionate contributing factor to the enshitification of all media and platforms. If you're not familiar with the term enshitification, look it up, try not to get depressed. Seventh on my list is, research shows us very, very clearly that generative AI, and particularly the heavy use of it, literally makes us significantly dumber and reduces both cognitive and social functioning in individuals. Eight on my list is, it erodes our connection with other people and with ourselves and our own creativity. Ninth on my list is, you cannot copyright AI-generated material, be that written passages or your cover art, and this can create issues for writers, the least of which is the free-for-all pirating of your work. If you write a book with generative AI and publish it and a thousand pirate sites steal your book, you can't do anything about it. Ten on my list is, speaking on that same topic, all AI-generated content is plagiarized. All Gen AI platforms were trained on massive amounts of copyrighted, human-generated material with zero permission from the writers or compensation for the creators of these pieces. And this is a huge moral and ethical violation that should matter to people. As an author, you really need other authors as your allies in your career, and anyone whose work was stolen and fed into these learning models, they don’t want anything to do with apologists for that, and quite rightfully so. You want friends in your professional community, not enemies, and that requires siding with other authors and other creatives against the violation of their rights and misuse of their creative property. And then eleventh and last on my list here—well, second to last—is, any good author should want to present something of value to their readers, and AI-generated material is inherently valueless at every level. In fact, this is a stance which has even been held up and established in courts over the last couple of years. And then 12, actually last on my list—I'm sorry it was so long—is that what AI makes for you, it will also make for hundreds, if not thousands, of other people. Why would you want to bother putting an AI-generated book out there knowing that, thanks to the very nature of generative AI, there is zero chance that it only produced that for you and you alone, so it's not going to be unique or original?

Agnes: I know my earliest stance, even when we first started this podcast, is very different than my stance now because when it first came out, I was like, “Oh, this is so nice,” and, “Okay, I would never use it on my book.” But I was like, “Oh, but I can use it for this, this, and this,” and I am slowly using it for less and less things because of a lot of the things that I have learned. And some of it I've learned from you. But I think one of the most meaningful considerations in my life is, we are human, and we should consider honoring people and their creativity. I feel like AI disrupts this. What are your thoughts on this particular topic?

Rebecca: The value of stories is to connect the writer, a human, to the humans who consume that story. If a computer is coming up with their ideas, or deciding how to present them, anything like that, how can the writer expect those stories to connect in any meaningful way? I think you have a great point of just, connection matters, and we need to foster that. Being creative is one of the defining traits of being human versus, let's say, a beetle. More specifically, creating for the sake of it is really inherent and important. Throughout recorded history, art in all forms, from building pyramids to skaldic poetry to Renaissance painting, to community and performance dance, and basically just engaging in creative pursuits of any kind for the sake of it, hasn't only been important to human existence and how we understand our place in the world, but I would say is vital to it in every life, in every age. So, why then would you sell out to computers taking over that creativity? Making something that comes from a place of zero emotion, or experience, or soul, or expression, because it's literally a computer and it's just churning stuff out for other computers to then mash together and repeat the process. I think that generative AI's disruption between people is very real, like you mentioned. But I think it's also incredibly important to remember how important purely human creativity is in connecting with ourselves through that process. If you aren't reaching into the depths of your soul, if you aren't grappling with doubts, fears, traumas, dreams, hopes, and joys in the creation of a story or any other piece of art, then you are losing out on so much more than I think most people realize. And if you aren't truly engaging in that full creative process, then what's the point of having something created at the end stage? The only answers that I've personally seen or been able to come up with are either money or ego. And I don't know about you, but those sound incredibly depressing when the alternative of life purpose realization and all that kind of stuff is another option on the table.

Agnes: When I use AI, one of the things that I often think about is something that you have said countless times, and the first time you said it really impacted me a lot, and it's something that I often think about. So I still do use generative AI, for ideas for my math, as a math teacher, coming up with the problems. I try to find most of my stuff online through Teachers Pay Teachers and those sort of things, but I have, on occasion, been like, “Okay, what can I do for this?” and it's helped me, because I am one of those that actually does algebra, geometry, all of those. I have not lost that. I have used it, and I have not lost it. But what you have said is, “If we don't use it, we will lose it.” And that struck me a lot, because when you said that, I had started using generative AI, and I realized, “You know what? If I continue to use it in the way that I am using it”—and this was before I even learned about the environmental impact—“I am going to not be able to do this as well. I will not be able to articulate as well. I will not be able to make myself—” What I was using it a lot was to help me be more clear. And I'm like, “I won't be able to do that if I continue to use it.” So I wanted you to take a moment and just kind of talk about that particular aspect of it.

Rebecca: That topic right there is a big part of why I really try to hammer home that difference between generative AI and assistive AI. So, when you're facing this topic for yourself, whoever you are as an individual, assess if a particular thing is a skill that you want to have, or one that you are okay offboarding, like you were just talking about. For example, for myself, being a perfect or even reliably good speller didn't make the cut. And yeah, the way that my brain is wired with various neuro-spiciness definitely is a contributing factor, but I also just decided that those specific mental muscles around correctly spelling this complicated language that I speak wasn't worth it when I would rather use that memory space and processing power for the mental skills that I care a lot more about. So, I am heavily reliant on spellcheck, and I only become a better speller very slowly and painfully over time. But I care a lot about my critical reasoning skills, my ability to do real, deep research, my ability to explore and integrate new concepts or philosophies or practical tools, and I care a lot about my creativity, and, as a niche within that, my grasp of macro story elements and function beyond and above all else. So, my insistence on keeping those specific mental skills as strong as they can be, without offloading or enshitification or whatever, can be pried from my cold, dead hands. But spelling? I don't care, I will offload that. So, environmental or ethical concerns aside, just ask yourself, on this use-it-or-lose-it topic, ask yourself, do you want to be someone who can do whatever task it is you are considering using AI for? If not, great! You have a tool right there in front of you, a very powerful one, to do it for you. But if you DO want to be someone who identifies as a storyteller, or an editor, or a teacher of any topic, then you need to actually do that mental work, or you will just become someone who uses AI, and it's the AI who actually teaches, or tells stories, or edits, or whatever the topic happens to be. If you want to say that you are capable of something, that's the thing that you need to keep actually doing and improving the mental muscles for yourself.

Agnes: I feel like we should also talk about the long-term effects that using AI has, both on us as an individual and the atrophy of our minds, but even the broader as a culture and creativity of our society. What are some of your thoughts on that?

Rebecca: I like smart people. I like thinking that humanity in general has two brain cells to rub together, and more and more studies are coming out about how people of all ages are literally losing the ability to think with ongoing use of, or reliance on, generative AI, and that's kind of scary to me. Research is showing us that the use of AI is highly addictive and severely damages critical reasoning, decision making, creativity, and a lot more. I will make sure to link some articles on this topic in my blog for this episode. Essentially, even with the environmental and personal creative considerations aside, it's documentably better for humanity in whole if we collectively shun or otherwise avoid the use of generative AI. I don't want to live in a world that doesn't have creatives. I want to live in a world where AI is doing the shitty work, the menial labor, the manufacturing, whatever, so that people can be creative. And I think that, culturally, our future is a lot more beautiful and creative and connected and all of the good things the more we can push the narrative that AI needs to stay out of creativity and decision-making. Beyond that, long-term, we will start seeing more and more means for filtering out AI-generated content as our markets and platforms and societies get more and more flooded with it. If anyone out there thought that the fiction market was already flooded with so many books, let's say, post about 2009, with the advent of indie publishing, then I have bad news for you. It's only going to get worse as things keep going in the direction of AI. It's just going to compound that saturation. Which I don't say to discourage anyone from writing, quite the opposite. You should write your real, human, meaningful stories, and everyone who wants a chance at an author career should also loudly rail against AI-generated writing, because only in making AI-generated writing a pariah to the point of shame for the scammers and the lazy people and whoever pumping out an AI-generated book a week—only then can humans stand a chance of our industry and livelihoods not buckling under.

Agnes: I actually have found that you can kind of tell when AI has written something, because it has a certain voice, just like we as humans have a certain voice, and I have been reading a lot of, like, “Oh, this article is interesting.” I start to read it, and then it says something, and I'm like, “This is not human.” And you can tell. And that's one thing that I think that people need to realize, is that you can't really hide the fact that you are using AI. You might get away with it by certain people, but people can tell if you are using AI.

Rebecca: One of my guilty pleasures is the Reddit stories read out over Minecraft [IP1] videos, and, yeah, I can tell when one is AI-generated. There are certain word choices, there are certain cadences, it's actually pretty easy to tell.

Agnes: Yeah, and I think it's like, the more familiar you become with it, the more you run across it, then you can spot it like that. I hate to tell you, but somebody is going to tell that you use AI, that it is not your writing. But I feel like a lot of this episode is pretty anti-AI, which is fine. I think that those particular aspects need to be talked about, but if a writer still decides to go ahead with using generative AI, what would you say to them that isn't trying to talk them out of it?

Rebecca: Totally. So, being magnanimous, coming from a positive place here, people will absolutely make that choice because they are intrigued by the potential of the technology, or because of limitations around their time or physical abilities, because they want to publish more books per year and they want to have that career, or to get past writer's block, or a whole host of other reasons that are totally understandable. Here are some considerations to bear in mind if you go ahead with that. First, I suggest that you be honest about it at every turn. Like you were just talking about, people can tell, so if you mention ahead of time, “Hey, this was AI-generated,” you might get curiosity of people going, “Well, I want to see how that turned out.” But essentially, trying to dupe those who don't want to consume AI-generated material is going to go more poorly for you—when they find out, not if they find out—than it will if you're just upfront about it. Sometimes if you fail to correctly label something as AI-generated, it might get you kicked out of some spaces, but at least if you are up front, you may learn which spaces those are as a warning without actually getting banned or ostracized. I've seen this happen in a bunch of different groups, where, if the person had simply done a little disclaimer about their use of generative AI in creating something, they would still, to this day, have access to those networks and those communities. My second piece of advice is you will need to heavily revisit the topic of dialling up originality and uniqueness, like from episode 38 of this series. Generative AI's literal job is to collect from what is already written and rearrange it and re-“imagine” it for you. So, you need to put in more effort into making it genuinely original than perhaps you would otherwise if you had written it from scratch. My third piece of advice is that you make sure you do really heavy and meaningful checks for plagiarism before attempting to publish it. Generative AI is plagiarism software, for better or worse, so the impetus of avoiding literally paying high costs in court for plagiarism is on you, not the software. Fourth, bear in mind that the more generative AI writing floods digital spaces, the more it's feeding into generative AI writing. It's like making a copy of a copy of a copy on a printer to the point where it's just kind of this gray blob. Or like the sci-fi trope where it only takes a few generations of cloning clones for them to become these deformed monsters. So, if you are hoping to get the same results from generative AI writing which you or someone else was getting right at the cusp of this technology, that’s unrealistic now, 3 years in, and it's going to keep getting more so. If you want to do it, if you are sure you want to write something with generative AI, do it as soon as possible and understand that as of about 9 months ago, from what I've seen, generative AI stories will need much more intense editing overall to publish something of quality than it would have two years ago, or if it was human-written. Fifth, do your research on what your copyright options are or aren't in your specific situation, depending on what you used for your process, and understand how that impacts your publishing or the life of the book. Some platforms do require original work, which generative AI does not count as. Or they might have requirements worded as “human-made,” or “copyrighted,” or “copyrightable.” So, just make sure that you thoroughly read through all of the terms and conditions and definitions and the like at each stage for whatever publishing—or sharing, or anything like that—steps that you want to take for your career. Sixth and lastly, make sure that you do several extra rounds of self-editing an AI-generated book, specifically for plot holes and inconsistencies, like we talked about in episode 19 of this series. Generative AI stories have a high risk factor for having far more plot holes and inconsistencies in the story than human-generated stories do. And you need to at least get it up to that sort of human-average baseline before looping in feedback readers or post-publication readers.

Agnes: I know for myself, even 12 months ago when we first started doing this particular thing, I was even using it for some ideas to advertise our episodes and stuff. And it's funny, the more I learned, the less I have been wanting to use it, because I have learned a lot since I started using it. I used it to help me write emails, like, “Okay, this is what I want to say, blah, blah, blah.” And then it would generate, and I was like, “Oh, this is so nice!” And I appreciated it, and I loved it at first. But then, as I've gotten to know more and more things… And so I think one of the things that I would like to impart on people is to start doing your research on AI, because my stance even 6 months ago is different than my stance now. And it's just continuously changing, and so I encourage you, if you haven't really thought about some of these things, to really start to research it. And I have to admit, I have become a little bit more and more anti as I have gotten to know more things. I know we had talked about it before, where there was a little bit bigger gap earlier on, when we first started this series. But I'm coming to your side slowly, just so you know.

Rebecca: Cool!

Agnes: What'd you say?

Rebecca: I said cool, but yeah, that's how that process tends to go.

Agnes: So, that's what I would like to say, but I want to give you a chance. So I have one last question for you. I know what my takeaway hope would be for writers and AI, but if you could just say one thing to an author and why they should be leery, or maybe even avoid AI, what would it be?

Rebecca: I suggest being careful that you don't end your career by choosing the wrong side of this issue while it's still unfolding, which it is. We are already seeing authors who even just got false allegations of using generative AI [IP2] getting hardcore cancelled. I've seen lists floating around of authors with confirmed AI art covers or generated AI content in their story, and these lists are being circulated as permanent blacklists for ethical readers. So, I hope that our listeners are ethical readers, and I hope that none of our listeners or authors specifically trying to pander to unethical readers. That would be weird and uncomfortable. You should want ethical readers, so bear that in mind. I firmly believe that these lines around the ethics of, or perceived ethics of, generative AI use are going to become more and more invested and firmly drawn over the next couple of years. So, don't risk getting blacklisted by your readers, by other authors that could otherwise be allies in your career, or risk future legal issues at least with sales platforms, if nothing else. And avoid generative AI for the sake of your writing career over the rest of your whole life.

Agnes: Well, anyway, I just want to thank you so much for your insight. This was a very informative, important conversation, and I'm glad we discussed it.

Rebecca: Me too. Next week, we will be officially starting the final module of this series, micro-level polishing. The first of these more granular topics will be reducing redundancy, which will hopefully be very helpful for anyone working on bringing their word count down, or improving their momentum further than they already have. For now, I would love to thank everyone following along with this series. If you know any other authors who are nearing the end of their first draft, or struggling with revising or rewriting their novel, please send them in the direction of this series. The more authors that we can help understand and finish the process of self-editing, the better.

Agnes: For those who have followed this series, we only have a dozen, literally a dozen, episodes left to follow. Thank you!

See you next time!

Polishing POV, Tense, & Person: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 39

Tue, 30 Sep 2025 22:00:00 GMT

Polishing POV, Tense, & Person: After-episode thoughts & transcript…

At one point in this episode, I say that the omniscient POV style choice is “very uncommon”, and I just want to add some clarifying caveats to that. Specifically, it is very uncommon in books written and/or released this century , and within my specialty genres of romance, fantasy, and historical. If you are looking at masterworks or examples from the 20th century or other genres, such as epic high fantasy adventure which is where I see it the most modernly, then intentional omniscient narrative style consistency may be more common or accepted by readers.

I also listed proofreaders twice in my rundown of the different kinds of feedback readers, which was just a brain glitch. Between line editors and proofreaders are copy editors, which edit for spelling, grammar, and punctuation before you move on to a proofreader.

Lastly, the other episodes in this series referenced in this one are:

Episode 15: Checking Your Narrative Style Choices

Episode 30: Scene Core Events

Episode 37: Handling Jumps in Time, Place, & POV

Happy editing!

Episode 39 Overview:

Polishing POV, Tense, & Person

“Are there any head-hopping or tense/person inconsistency issues I need to clean up in my manuscript before asking someone else to read my novel?”

In this episode of the Story Savvy Series , we explore narrative clarity tips , self-editing fiction , and how to sharpen your manuscript’s professionalism. Together, we’ll cover editing multi POV stories , strengthening narrative consistency , and applying omniscient narration tips with purpose. By the end, you’ll understand how to refine your draft so it reads seamlessly keeps readers immersed in your world.

In this episode of the Story Savvy Series , developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring fantasy author Agnes Wolfe revisit person, tense, and POV choices with a focus on polishing consistency. They break down how to spot and fix head hopping, tense slips, and person shifts—three of the most common page-level issues that disrupt immersion. You’ll walk away with clear, practical strategies to self-edit these problems so your novel carries professional polish from start to finish.

In this episode:

How to identify and fix head hopping
Common tense slips and how to correct them
How to spot slips between first and third person narration
Best practices for editing dual or multi-POV books
When omniscient narration works—and when it doesn’t
Why consistency in person, tense, and POV builds reader trust

Recommended Resources:

Hart Bound Developmental Editing: www.hartboundediting.com

Authors’ Alcove: www.authorsalcove.com

See you next week for episode 40: Break Week: AI In Writing & Editing

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 39 Transcript:

Polishing POV, Tense, & Person

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 39 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We've covered so much in this series so far, including last week's episode on dialing up uniqueness in our stories. Today, we are going to revisit narrative style with the express purpose of cleaning it up as much as possible in self-editing. By the end of this episode, you'll hopefully have a better grasp on how and why consistency in these areas is so important, and feel ready to dive into polishing them in your own work. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my good friend and co-host, Agnes Wolfe. Hello.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later this year, and host and founder of Authors Alcove. I'm here today to revisit and check our person tense and point of view choices. So, how is what we are talking about today different from what we talked about around narrative style choices much earlier in the series?

Rebecca: When we talked about this back in episode 15, it was very much about assessing the choices that we had made and considering whether or not we wanted to make different ones. So, looking at your book and seeing, “did I write this in first person or third person?” for example, and “is that working the best it possibly could for this story, do I want to change that?” What we are looking at around this today is just going through and catching any mistakes within those choices we might have made during the drafting or editing process. So, we are looking at head hopping to be fixed, we are looking at breaks in your chosen tense, and we are looking at mistakes with your chosen person for your book, based on the decisions you made earlier.

Agnes: Okay, so what is our ultimate goal with this round of edits?

Rebecca: To have 100% consistency on all three of these points. These are some of the most glaring page-level mistakes readers will catch, and cleaning them all up helps a lot with readability, perceived skill of the author, perceived value of the written work, momentum, and reader immersion. The goal here is to make sure that we don't have any mistakes around POV, tense, or person when it comes to consistency.

Agnes: So, what do issues with POV look like? Like, how can we catch them, and what do our fixes look like?

Rebecca: So, issues with POV are typically referred to as head-hopping, which, if you've been writing for a while, you've definitely found that term, you can find lots of information about that everywhere, basically. So, head hopping is where you are in one POV for a while, or established, as stated, whatever, and then at some point, you end up mentioning something that can only come from a different point of view, from a different experience or perspective. That “hopping” from one character's head to another is jarring for the reader, and it can be very confusing about whose experience we are in, who I should, as a reader, be paying the most attention to, all of these kind of different things. So, that's what head hopping is. Specifically with dual POV or multiple POV, this tends to come up more, because at some other point in the book, you are in that other perspective, you are in that other experience, and it becomes even easier to end up falling into different POVs within a scene, which is head-hopping. With omniscient narration, that isn't a thing. If you're writing omniscient, that means that you are either in nobody's head, and you are very much sort of that deity perspective that's just looking down on things that are happening, you're not inside their emotions. Or, you are inside everyone's perspective; you are able to just sort of move between all of these different perspectives. So, an issue with omniscient would be, for example, staying in one POV for too long or being inconsistent with the kind of omniscient narration you're doing, but then having omniscient come into a book that isn't generally that is an issue to be fixed. Another POV issue to watch out for is a future perspective. And I almost always catch this in the last line or two of a chapter in a book. And it's where, you know, the chapter is wrapping up, and it's all coming together, and there's a moment of wrap-up for that chapter, that scene, and the author will drop in a line of, “And so-and-so would never betray that trust,” or “would live out the rest of his life believing that was true.” You can't say that unless the story is very specifically being told by someone in the future of the story that is happening. So, keeping a very careful eye out for any sort of future tense of, “how could they possibly know that in this moment?” can also be a POV issue more than it is a tense issue. So, fixes to POV issues should look like being able to read through an entire chapter and not have one single sentence or word which doesn't come from the specific POV that you have chosen. So, barring omniscient—and it is very uncommon—that means being able to read through a whole chapter and never having a word or a sentence coming from outside that one POV character's internal, personal, singular experience.

Agnes: And I think I just corrected one in my own, and it was very subtle, but I just hadn't mentioned how this person felt agitated. And I realized, wait, I can't say that because she doesn't know. She could see that he might feel agitated, but she can't feel that he is agitated. So I had to show it from her perspective, and it was something small, because I didn't think that I was having very much trouble, but I did find that one singular spot, and I'm like—

Rebecca: Yeah.

Agnes: Oops! Oh, better change it! Anyway, so I would just like to dive just a little bit deeper talking about books that are dual POV, or multi-POV, or omniscient POV, and maybe rules, guidelines, just whatever we may need to think about with those type of books.

Rebecca: Yeah. First of all, that's a great example, and yeah, little moments like that of naming an emotion can slip through so easily. Honestly, I've had to edit so many times in my own books to make sure that I get them all. So, in dual POV—or multi-POV, where you have more than two characters who have POV scenes—the same rules absolutely stand. Only one POV per scene or per chapter is acceptable, and you MUST use a full scene break or chapter break anywhere where you move from one POV to another. Otherwise, that is head-hopping, and that is an issue to fix. And I warn folks away from overusing that tool instead of fixing the problem. If a scene that you have now split out because you need to change POV doesn't have a core scene event to itself, with no further breaks in between there, like we talked about in episode 30, or that little scene fragment to change POVs ends up being less than a thousand words, so that you can hop over to that new POV for a minute, then you need to take that scene break back out and instead fix the head hopping so that it is consistent for long enough, and consistent around one whole core scene event. If you choose omniscient narration—so, not multi-POV necessarily, but more everyone POV, which is omniscient—then, make sure that there is a mix of POV on every page, so that the reader never forgets that it is omniscient, as staying in one POV for too long would make the next jump to someone else feel more jarring. Likewise, if you choose a framing device in which it makes sense that the teller of the story is speaking to the reader, telling this story from a future point beyond the events that are unfolding, then it's totally okay to have mentions of what’s coming next, or how the protagonist or whatever character plays out the rest of her life. That's fine, but that needs to be clear. With that, too, it needs to be very clear and done regularly enough where this specific character telling the story is mentioning things like that, or speaking to the reader in that sort of direct way, that it stays unsurprising throughout the narrative.

Agnes: So, what do issues with tense look like? We were just talking about POV, but let's specifically talk about tense. What are issues with tense look like, like first person or third person, and how can we catch them?

Rebecca: The most common issue that I see around tense tends to be around pronouns, such as saying “she's” instead of “she’d,” things like that. Obviously, if it's in dialogue, that can be an exception. People can speak in present or past tense, depending on context. That's fine. So, I mention this because I've had an author that I worked with try to do a find and replace to fix that, and it messed up a bunch of their dialogue, so keep an eye on that. But yeah, if you aren't super clear on tense, because I think this can be tricky for a lot of people, I suggest that you start by giving yourself a foundational understanding of first versus past tense from Google. Once you really understand the difference between present tense and past tense—or future if you really want to do that; it's very, very uncommon—then, when you do your next read of your book, keep an eye or an ear out for any exceptions to the rule that you picked for your book. If you chose past tense narrative style, then if you catch anywhere where you used present tense phrasing outside of dialogue, you need to fix that. The same goes for any tense choices. The only non-dialogue exception for this is internal thoughts, which should pretty much always be in first tense, even in past-tense-narration books.

Agnes: So, what about the same question for person issues, like first person versus third person?

Rebecca: Pretty much the same answer. Make sure that you are solid on the difference between the different person options, and keep an eye out for any deviations to whichever one you chose in order to fix it. The exception here, of course, is dialogue, and again, internal thoughts. Those should always be in first person if they are true, internal—italicized, if we're talking about formatting—thoughts. Even if a third-person-narrated book is using these internal thoughts, they should still be in first person, because it's essentially internal dialogue, and dialogue should be in first person when you're talking about yourself.

Agnes: So, I'm not sure if this is two questions or just one, but I know that it's super hard to catch in your own writing, because you know what it says.

Rebecca: Sure.

Agnes: So, I guess one question is, how can we catch them in our own writing? But even bigger than that, let's say we realize that we have a huge issue of tense changes and that sort of thing. How do you suggest approaching or tackling these edits, since they might feel a little overwhelming?

Rebecca: Yeah… These are overwhelming, these are a lot of work. For POV, the best way that I can suggest that you catch these issues is that you stay very much in one character's eyes for a scene. And the way that I did this in my own first book, when I was really figuring out things like head hopping, was I had a sticky note that had my protagonist's name on it, and I would stick it to my laptop screen as I was editing. And having either the name Angie or the name Daniel in my peripheral vision as I'm reading through allowed me to keep myself much more grounded in that one particular perspective. So if I was in an Angie POV scene and I'm scrolling through, reading, and I see a moment—so a mention of emotion, like you talked about earlier, or an observation that can only come from Daniel's POV—then I get that little jarred feeling of, “wait, no, I thought it was an Angie's POV.” And reading through really, really trying to keep yourself within the head of the POV character that you intend to be the only POV character for a given scene is the easiest way to do that. Let’s see, so, you can kind of also do this with tense and person. Have a sticky note, have it on the surface that you are reading your story on, and just keep that in your peripheral vision, literally and metaphorically as you're reading through, so that if you catch something that isn't what it's supposed to be it just catches, like a little burr on fabric, and you can stop, really assess it, and then ideally fix it. A little tip here would be, if you catch a mistake that you made—so, if you catch, let's say, a particular word that is the present tense of that word but you're trying to write in past tense, when you fix that instance, do a quick search in your document for that same present tense incorrect use of the word. If you messed it up one place, it's likely that you messed it up somewhere else—you know, if you mess it up in one place, there's a decent chance that if you made a mistake elsewhere, it's more likely to be that same word than another random word in the English language. So, when you catch a mistake do a quick find and replace and see if he made the same mistake anywhere else. That can save you a lot of grief. I will mention: doing that, make sure it's not dialogue, because, again, I've seen that messed up. So, beyond that, you can absolutely, if all else fails, try to get a couple of good beta readers or critique partners before paying for any editing, and ask each of them to flag all the instances that they catch of one of these layers. Don't get one beta reader and say, “hey, I need help cleaning up my POV tense and person.” That's not fair to them. Ask one reader, “hey, all I am asking for this feedback read, the only thing I need your particular feedback on is POV.” And then have a different reader, where you make that same exact narrow request for just tense, and then a third for just person, and so on. Trying to ask them to gather all of these layers at once is, as you mentioned, as you suspect, a stupid amount of work if you have moderate to severe issues with any of these layers.

Agnes: I love the “moderate to severe,” because it makes me think of all of those ads.

Rebecca: Yeah. Illness of a manuscript.

Agnes: I was expecting a full-on ad. No, so, I know that you were my very first set of eyes, and I'd only done a couple edits myself. So, I wanted to ask a quick question, kind of deviating from what we were talking about, because you did bring up, you know, beta and alpha readers.

Rebecca: Sure.

Agnes: When would you recommend, and who would you recommend being, the first, second, third eyes as far as… What I'm referring to is, with the developmental editing being in there?

Rebecca: I'm not entirely sure I understand the question.

Agnes: Okay, so you were my very first set of eyes, and I paid for you, and you suggested having people read before you actually pay someone else to read.

Rebecca: Sure. Gotcha.

Agnes: How many people would you recommend, and at what stages would you recommend these readings, and when would you look into having a developmental editor?

Rebecca: So, I personally… Okay, let me start by listing the different kinds of feedback that you can get. There are alpha readers that read during your drafting process, so before you've actually finished writing the book, and book coaches are the paid version of that, that happen during the writing process. Then you have critique partners, which can overlap a bunch of these different ones. Beta readers, which is supposed to be after finishing the novel and doing self-editing but before professional editing, and then in the professional sphere, you have developmental editing, which is structure, so looking at plot, worldbuilding, character arcs, that kind of thing. Then you have line editing, which looks at your flow and your formatting to some extent, and sort of the bigger picture, paragraph-level, line-level, page-level writing but will not give feedback on, “hey, your plot isn't working here” kind of things. And then you have a proofreader [IP1] , which is for typos, grammar, and punctuation. And then lastly, a proofreader, who is just doing a final polish after a copy edit. So, having listed all of those, I don't personally recommend alpha readers. I think that getting done with the book is so vital. And trying to get feedback before you have finished writing the book is far more frequently a detriment than it is helpful. What I do recommend is, after you've finished a first draft and ideally done as much self-editing as you can, look for a beta reader and/or critique partner. These two are often very overlapped or interchangeable terms. A critique partner specifically is often another author, and the two of you literally swap books. So, while they are critiquing your book on whatever you guys decide is within the… Oh, what is the word I'm looking for— The realm of the swap, you are doing the same on their book. I personally find this very, very helpful, and this is what I often reach for. Beta readers can be other authors, so a lot of overlap with the critique partner, but they will often also just be readers. So, you find readers who are interested in reading your book for free and giving some feedback on that, and that's what I tend to recommend the most just as a blanket statement. When you're finished with self-editing, get beta readers and implement their feedback before paying for a developmental edit, because you're probably going to have to make some decently sized changes after the beta readers. And once you do that, you want the developmental editor to check those changes. However, that same logic kind of applies the other way around. So, if you pay for a developmental editor first, you're going to have a lot of big changes to make, if they're a good developmental editor.

Agnes: She was … she was.

Rebecca: And then you can use your beta readers to check that. So, it's really kind of six of one, half a dozen of the other. It's up to you to decide. Whichever way makes sense, but whichever direction you think that's going to go, you want to use either beta readers or the dev editor to check the changes that you made from the other.

Agnes: Sure. I know for myself—I'm trying not to deviate too much about our topic, but—I know for myself, I was too nervous to send it off to anybody else except for you, which is why I paid, but now I'm starting to feel like, “okay, I need to get beta readers,” and then I'm like, “do I need to hire a development editor again?”

Rebecca: I would say no. There's going to be individual exceptions for anyone. I offer re-edits on pieces at a discount because I recognize that need to check that you made the right changes, that you got things right. And that's totally valid. But for most people, I would say, if you feel like you took the advice from your dev editor and you didn't, you know, shy away from it, and you actually did that deep work, a beta reader next should be totally fine before moving on to the line and copy level.

Agnes: Awesome. Back to our regularly scheduled…! Anyway, so are there things we should look for in our writing aside from tense and pronoun use that might indicate we are being inconsistent with our point of view?

Rebecca: Yeah, you touched on one earlier, which was naming an emotion that you can't know for sure a non-POV character is experiencing. So that's a common one, for sure. So experienced emotions, experienced physical sensations—so that could be anything from aching bones all the way through nonverbal communication, or physical experiences of emotion, like saying, “oh, so-and-so's stomach twisted.” Well, if you're not in their head, how do you know that kind of thing? Some other sort of flags to keep an eye out for would be opinions that are stated like fact, especially in narration. So, if in narration you say something like “so-and-so didn't think that was a good idea” but it's not your POV character, and they didn't say it out loud, that's head-hopping. It can also be lingering too long on describing only the actions and dialogue of a non-POV character. This isn't technically head-hopping, but still, if you have a non-POV character dominating a full page, that slips that focus out of the POV character, and I remember that you had a fair bit of this in the early version of your book that I edited, where you weren't strictly head-hopping out of, let's say, Amelia's POV, but because so much of the action and dialogue and interaction had nothing to do with her for pages at a time, it felt like this slip out, so then when you re-anchored back in her POV, that was jarring. Another flag to keep an eye out for would be presenting a known fact which the POV protagonist does not know. So, if you're writing, let's say, dual POV and your main male character learned the big secret about the villain, and then in the next scene, it is [FMC’s] POV. If she now also knows the thing, that is potentially head-hopping. One of the ways to fix this issue is simply show the POV character learning the fact, or mention how they learned that fact. But if they seemingly magically, without being shown or told that they did learn this too, that they know this fact that they probably shouldn't, that can also come across as head-hopping.

Agnes: So, for a moment, I'm going to talk about one of my favorite authors, Neil Schusterman. He is the author of the Scythe series, so if you haven't read it, I strongly recommend it. My son-in-law was the one that had recommended it when he was, like, 17 years old, and he hated reading, and I figure if someone who hates reading recommends a book, then you should read the book. So, anyway, one of the things that he did in the final book in the Scythe series, is that he did technically head-hopping. And it was such an event that you kind of needed to see all these different people's point of views, and he did it in such a masterful way. So, I know that we do not have to follow this rule to a T.

Rebecca: Sure.

Agnes: So, if we're trying to pull something like that off, how can we do that in a way that feels natural and intentional and does not jar the reader?

Rebecca: So, first of all, I just want to say, I recommend learning to follow a rule before you intentionally break them. So, learn how to stay in one POV very cleanly and consistently before you attempt an omniscient POV or head-hopping POV perspective. But if you do want to go that route after learning how to follow the rule, then there are a few tips to keep in mind when trying to do omniscient or intentional head hopping—which, they're the same thing—if you want to attempt doing that well. So, first of all, be consistent in that form from page 1, so that the reader gets to adjust to it early on, and that they don't lose track of the fact that that is an established expectation for that book. Second, put extra work into making sure that the who, where, and when is super clear in and after each shift in POV or hop from one head to another, like we talked about in the last episode. No, sorry, not last episode, a couple of episodes ago. Third, make sure that you have a mix of POVs very regularly and consistently, like I mentioned earlier in this episode. If you go from close or limited POV for several pages and then hop to omniscient of any kind, that's going to be much more jarring and confusing than if you keep the POV consistently floating above all of the avatars, or at least try to stay in more than one internal experience on any given page, to keep that aspect, that omniscient aspect, visible at all times.

Agnes: So, wrapping up, I just have one last question for you. When should we be tackling these errors? Is it okay to worry about this after beta readers, etc? We kind of talked about that a little bit.

Rebecca: So, like I mentioned earlier, if you really, really can't spot the issues in your own work on these layers, you can try waiting until during or after the beta process. But honestly, having more than a few issues about any of these is one of the quickest ways to lose good faith with your beta readers, and you don't want that to happen. I've been running a beta critique swap group for a couple of years now, and on the rare occasions I have a reader tap out on a book that they'd signed up for for a different author in the group, the overwhelming reason that they give for doing so is that there were a lot of tense or person or POV issues like head-hopping. On the professional side, you really don't want to pay for this much extra work for a professional editor if that doesn't make sense for you, if you feel like you could do better on your own first. And it's fine if you don't, but for example, I only offer full flagging of every single instance that I catch of head-hopping or tense or person issues with my premium service, which is what you went for—which was great, which is fine. But I do this because flagging all of the issues around head-hopping, tense, or person takes a whole extra read, and many, many hours of extra work as a professional editor. If I only catch maybe 3 to 5 spots where there's head hopping or tense or person issues in a whole book, sure, I will absolutely flag those specific spots at any of my services. But if I catch a good few issues on any of these layers just in the first couple of chapters, then that's way beyond the scope that I can do for the time and effort and expertise that I'm putting in for most clients. And I have to then force myself to ignore those layers of issues in order to provide the feedback on the character arcs and the plot and the world building, which is my actual job as a developmental editor, specifically. So, long answer short: now, right now, in your self-editing, is the right time to polish these three aspects. You have, at this stage in the process, if you're following this series, probably already done the massive majority of your structural or big chunk reworking, which is most likely to introduce these POV person or tense issues, but you haven't yet wasted a whole bunch of polishing and typo correcting and comma adjustment work, which these POV intents and person rewriting and reworking can often overwrite and make the time that you spent fixing up those smaller things wasted.

Agnes: Well, thank you so much for your insight. It has always helped me so much. I appreciate it.

Rebecca: You're very welcome. And next week, I'm excited to announce that we will be starting the final module of this series, which is specifically for the line level and copy level polishing. Specifically, next week, we are going to kick off talking about reducing redundancy. For now, I really want to thank everyone for following along with this series. If you know any other authors who are nearing the end of their first draft or struggling with revising or rewriting their novel, please direct them towards this series. The more authors that we can help understand and finish the process of self-editing, the better. Thank you, Agnes, for joining me, and I will talk to y'all next week!

Agnes: Thank you! Bye!

See you next time!

Dialing Up Uniqueness: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 38

Tue, 23 Sep 2025 22:00:03 GMT

Dialing Up Uniqueness: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript…

The other episodes in this series referenced in this one are:

Episode 5: Your Non-Negotiables

Episode 10: Character Arcs & Protagonist Transformations

Episode 29: Character Consistency, Depth, & Uniqueness
Episode 37: Handling Jumps in Time, Place, & POV

Happy editing!

Episode 38 Overview:

Dialing Up Uniqueness

“Where could I take something boring and bring it more into my unique or immersively specific world-building? How can I make my story stand out, and be more memorably one-of-a-kind?”

In this episode of the Story Savvy series, we dive into fantasy novel editing and the challenges of self-editing fiction without losing your voice. Developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and fantasy author Agnes Wolfe share insights into narrative consistency, avoiding clichés, and strengthening characters. Learn how to balance creativity with genre expectations in fiction, refine world building for fantasy, and recognize when formulaic storytelling becomes a pitfall. This episode offers a practical guide for anyone navigating fiction editing strategies.

In this episode, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring fantasy author Agnes Wolfe discuss how to make your fiction stand out. From characters to world-building, they explore how to add originality without slipping into purple prose or breaking genre expectations. You’ll discover practical strategies for spotting flat or overused elements, balancing formula with invention, and embedding small, unique details that make your book more memorable.

In this episode:

• The benefits of adding unique details to your story

• Common pitfalls when trying to be too inventive or not inventive enough

• How to balance formulaic storytelling with originality

• Ways to brainstorm and fully embed unique worldbuilding choices

• Strategies for strengthening flat characters

• How to identify boring or overused elements in your writing

Recommended Resources:

• Hart Bound Developmental Editing: www.hartboundediting.com

• Authors’ Alcove: www.authorsalcove.com

See you next week for episode 39: Polishing POV, Tense, & Person

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 38 Transcript:

Dialing Up Uniqueness

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 38 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We have covered a bunch in this series so far, including last week's episode on handling jumps in time, place, or POV. Today, we are going to tackle dialing up how original, unique, invented, or embedded small details in your novel are. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully have a feel for what aspects in your story could be improved in this regard, how that can really help the long-term life of your book, and have some ideas for how to shift things more in that direction. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolf.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi! I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later next year, and also host and founder of Author's Alcove. I'm here today to go over dialing up uniqueness in our stories. I am super excited about this particular topic, because that’s—one of my favorite parts as a reader is finding those gems that are very unique and do something different than others. So, before we start talking specifically, I just want to hear what are some of the big upsides or benefits we are aiming for in trying to make things more unique?

Rebecca: I think you just made a great point. It can very much feel like treasure hunting when you're reading to find that little nugget, that thing that you haven't thought about before, or haven't encountered before. That can be a big payoff for your readers, so trying to provide at least one of those is worthwhile. Beyond that, it's a list of things that includes standing out in a flooded market for your genre, making your story more memorable for your readers. Avoiding ever getting accusations of plagiarism, and then, having silly aspects to it, like having more sellable side merch options, if you can do character art or stickers, or trinkets, whatever that is unlike whatever anyone else is offering. And at the end of the day, it's also just about improving your creativity muscles as a creative, as an author, as a writer.

Agnes: So, since it's been a few episodes since I've plugged this, I have to share about a very unique book that I—and I love the uniqueness, and it's called A Heart of Flame—

Rebecca: Thank you.

Agnes: —by Rebecca Hartwell. But one of the things that I really loved about your book is actually the idea of an aura, and I'm not going to go too much into it, but that plays a huge part in being able to see, smell, and other things, and have that be an integral part. That was one of my very favorite parts about your books.

Rebecca: Thank you!

Agnes: And so, that was what made your book special to me, and I think that those sort of things is what makes any book special. That thing that is very unique. Unfortunately, there sometimes are downsides, so I want to also cover that as well. What are the biggest downsides we might run into if we get this step in our self-editing wrong, or miss the mark?

Rebecca: Yeah. Everything is derivative, and I want to get that out of the way in this episode here. That is unavoidable in the 21st century. Everything is going to be derivative of something that came before. But, inventive takes on derivative ideas is what makes headlines. If you miss the mark, that can go in a few different ways that I've seen. First, you simply don't have enough uniqueness, and so you lack anything to catch attention, or you have to field criticism of your work being too formulaic or cookie-cutter. The second way that I've seen this go wrong is that you go overboard with adding creative uniqueness, and end up with a bunch of Purple Prose Fluff Meandering shoe leather in your worldbuilding for the sake of it, that isn't actually going anywhere, or contributing to the story or moving it forward. And then the third way that I've seen this go wrong is that you accidentally introduce plot holes or inconsistencies, or other issues like that in pushing this uniqueness envelope for your story. I guess that wasn't last. So, fourth, the issue that I'll see is that you don't correctly gauge the uniqueness spectrum acceptable for your genre. For example, contemporary romance actually wants minimal inventiveness, for the most part. But sci-fi, or high fantasy very much want as much as you can possibly manage.

Agnes: Very true, because when I want a Hallmark movie, I want a Hallmark movie. I want to know exactly what's going to happen next, because I want mindlessness right then.

Rebecca: Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Agnes: But with my fantasy, I have to have inventiveness. Okay, so, then talking about that, then, what's the right balance, and how do we get this exercise right to make sure that we have a good balance for our genre?

Rebecca: Yeah, so first of all, by all means, check your genre, and if there's a large spectrum of variety within your genre, check your subgenre and your sub-sub-subgenre, and your niche, and whatever. And then, above all else, I suggest taking something that you are already using to make your story move forward and iteratively brainstorming how you could bring it more into your unique worldbuilding, or make it more immersive in some way. For example, let's say that you are writing high fantasy. Let's pick transportation as the topic within that to dial up the uniqueness around. So, write down horses as your current means of traveling far distances. Then, write down 10 or more alternate ideas, like riding giant eagles, or magically teleporting everywhere, magic-powered blimps or trains, riding moose, or elk, or whales, rickshaws as a way of life within your world, whatever, whatever you can come up with. Then, consider the upsides and downsides to each option. Such as, how much else in the world would be affected by one of them being the case instead of your overused default? And then from there, pick a favorite. Next, with that favorite, write out a list of everything that that choice will affect. In this case, let's say you decide that giant eagles are the way to go. Okay, well then, how does that affect luggage, saddles, stables, what you wear to travel, navigation and map-making? What training for the animals or the riders is needed, how do you care for your mount? What hurdles might you encounter trying to travel that way? What precautions are usually taken to avoid them? How do you overcome issues with bird travel if they come up? So much stuff like that. And then from that list go in one topic from that list at a time, and change, scrap, or add/explain things as needed to fully embed that more unique choice within the story. But again, taking something that is already a function within the story and renaming it, or reimagining that functioning aspect is very much the way to go.

Agnes: So, I feel like we've gone back and forth on whether formulaic is good or not. And so, I just really want to cover: is formulaic bad, or is it good? Is it really all that bad?

Rebecca: As with anything, there is a balance to be struck. There's a happy medium to find. So, again, the specific genre that we're talking about matters a lot. To play with that, sort of food metaphor that I've used in the past of a quesadilla’s a quesadilla, and that has a certain formula to it that makes it what it is, and that's why you like it. So, playing off that, some genres like mac and cheese and prefer that anything presented to them is just pasta, creamy cheese sauce, and maybe one or two toppings or additions that they generally deem acceptable, and Hallmark movies are a fantastic example of this. If you get too inventive with that, you're going to present your mac and cheese to someone and watch them poke at it with a fork, looking disappointed and bummed out, since this isn't going to taste like the comfort food that they wanted. Then other genres are like ramen. There is a huge variety in what that dish can be at so many levels, in all of its different aspects. And a lot of people who love that dish, like myself, love trying new, unusual, or risky—riskily inventive versions of it. There's a balance to be struck with all of it, no matter the audience. If you go too unique and inventive, then people won't know what to expect, or how to engage with it, or how to consume it, and might just get weirded out and decide that they're going to go try something that is more familiar, more predictable. But if you go too far in the direction of predictable and familiar and formulaic, then folks will get bored and burnt out on combining the exact same things over and over and over again, and go find something else to consume which offers something more uniquely enticing. So, I suggest always aiming for toughly a middle ground within your specific genre’s expectations.

Agnes: Alright, so speaking of formulaic, what if the version of a character or trope I wrote is super basic but that's exactly what I like about it? What if trying to make something more inventive or unique ruins, in my opinion, as the writer, what I'm really trying to do?

Rebecca: If it is your non-negotiable, do not touch it. That is, that is the entire point of non-negotiables. Go back to that episode if you need to. Let it be as basic as you want. Absolutely. Just go find something else in the book, that isn't related to your non-negotiable, to dial up your uniqueness around. And the same goes for any specific trope. Be that a character archetype, a plot point, world aspect, or anything else. Let the stuff you love as the basic version of it stand. Just go take the boring stuff that you don't care about as much, and tweak it up until it's interesting and inventive enough that you do care about it, and hopefully think that your readers will care about it, too.

Agnes: So, one of the things I knew before I sent you my book is that my main character, Amelia, was pretty flat. Could we explore how I could have made her a more rounded, interesting character?

Rebecca: To answer that question, I'd refer everyone back to our episode on character arcs and well-rounded characters, but, let's do a little exercise here, looking at this specifically from a perspective of dialing up uniqueness. So, my first question to you is, what do you currently think is the boring aspect around her that you are most attached to and most don't want to change?

Agnes: The boring aspect that I don't want to change?

Rebecca: Yeah.

Agnes: She is very soft. She is very meek. And that's kind of boring. But it's also part of who she is.

Rebecca: Okay. Fair enough. Okay, so, from there, what do you think is her current most interesting feature that isn't really reaching a bar of interest, to your perspective?

Agnes: I think the fact that you can be bold and strong, and I don't feel like I really pulled that out when I was writing.

Rebecca: Okay.

Agnes: That she can be very bold and strong, because I don't think meekness means weak. And, yeah.

Rebecca: Sure. I mean, making sure that things are showing up on the page as intended is a great thing to bear in mind there. So, my next question for you is what are, let's say, 3 to 5 ideas right off the top of your head that are possible ways that you could dial up her uniqueness or her interest?

Agnes: I know that one of the things that I had kind of played around in my head, is … one thing about my husband is he's, he's a pretty quiet guy, but he is sneak attack funny. Where he’s—and I love that about him, and I—and so, as I recently deleted a character, and that was something that maybe I want to add the fact that she's funny, too, because that's something that I thought it would kind of surprise. Yeah, I think you could do it in a way that seems organic as well. I think what I'd also like her to be is a little bit neurotic. Because I think that that kind of plays with a little bit of that meekness and that over-analyzing and just a little bit of neuroticism. Nothing over the top, but, like—

Rebecca: Sure.

Agnes: You know. I think a lot of, especially, I think middle graders, a lot of middle grade books, the characters tend to be a little bit that way anyway.

Rebecca: Sure. Okay, so let's just look at your, your first example there. And do you think that adding that aspect in would have more effect on the plot, or change the plot more than you are willing to deal with?

Agnes: No.

Rebecca: Or do you think that it is doable without having to rewrite the book, kind of thing?

Agnes: Yes.

Rebecca: Okay, excellent. So from there, how do you think that you could show that trait, show her humor? Let's say once a scene, or in most scenes. How can—how can you show that uniqueness and that interest being expressed without having to state to the reader “she has humor,” or she—I loved your phrasing of, she has sneak attack humor.

Agnes: I think it's one of those characteristics of my husband I want to take is, he has these one-liners that just a one-liner that kind of catches you off guard but amuses you, and yeah, I think that I could—I think I could pull it off with it still seeming organic to her. And I like the idea of adding it to most scenes, so that way you see this is actually an organic part of who she is. So it doesn't catch people off guard.

Rebecca: Perfect. So, that right there is roughly the process. You figure out where you currently are with a situation or a worldbuilding aspect, whatever. You brainstorm some ideas, and then you either pick a favorite, or you pick a couple, you think through the consequences of them. And then you go in and look at how you can embed things. And I've touched on this before, and I'll touch on it again here. Rule of three is important in storytelling. If you want something to be relevant, to be true, mention it at least 3 times. Yeah, so now you can go in and you can add that more unique aspect to your story, and make sure that it's consistent, and go on from there.

Agnes: Thank you very much. So, I did have one last question. So, wrapping up. I knew my—like I just said, I knew my character was somewhat boring, but I think sometimes we struggle to see what's boring in our own writing. I think it's somewhat unique that I knew, but it's because I was trying to hide some things that I was—because I was writing, basically, an autobiography of my character, and so I realized I needed to change her in a way—

Rebecca: Sure.

Agnes: —that I did not feel so vulnerable sharing. But sometimes we don't know that we're being boring. Is there something we can do to make us identify the boring aspects of our stories?

Rebecca: There's two approaches for this, really. There's, there's the first where something is boring because it's overdone or overrepresented in the genre, the medium, whatever. And then there's boring just because something is falling flat. For the former, I suggest that you tackle this by listing as many books, TV shows, movies, songs, or anything else that you can think of that have or use that same aspect. If that's less than 3 that you can come up with, don't worry about it too much. If there are a few, maybe consider changing it. If you can think of more than a handful in under an hour, it's definitely commonplace, and you should prioritize dialing up the uniqueness for that specific thing, because you can name how common it is. However, things feeling boring because they are just falling flat is a different matter. It's often, due to there just not really being enough there to work with or explore, which I feel was more the case with—with your character that you've been putting so much work into now. I'm not really going to get into that in this particular episode. I feel like we've touched on it here and there throughout the series. While a lack of uniqueness is not necessarily what makes something fall flat, adding some unique traits or behaviors or aspects, idiosyncrasies, what have you can help. If something is falling flat, you can try adding some of those uniqueness aspects, and see if that helps, but that's not always going to be the solution.

Agnes: Well, thank you so much for all your insight. I—I've been really enjoying especially this portion of our series, just because it is following my own journey. Thank you.

Rebecca: Excellent. Always delighted to hear that. Next week we are going to revisit narrative style. This time not with an eye towards making any decisions, but just towards cleaning up those aspects before we move on to the final polishing stages of self-editing. For now, I would really like to thank everyone following along with the series. If you know any other authors who are nearing the end of their first draft or struggling with revising or rewriting their novel, please send them our way. The more authors that we can help understand and finish the process of self-editing, the better. Thank you, Agnes, and I will see you all next week.

Agnes: Thank you, see you next week.

See you next time!

Handling Jumps in Time, Place, & POV: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 37

Tue, 16 Sep 2025 22:00:09 GMT

Jumps & Transitions: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript…

You may want to revisit Episode 15: Narrative Style Choices , particularly around POV topics, and Episode 21: Word Count if you end up feeling overwhelmed or frustrated tackling the self-editing tasks in this one.

Happy editing!

Episode 37 Overview:

Handling Jumps in Time, Place, & POV

“If I skip or jump forward through time or space in my story, is it always clear to the reader when and where things are picking back up? Am I handling the passage of time and movement between locations well? And is my POV always clear after every break or transition?”

This episode explores pacing pitfalls writers , novel structure pacing , and self-editing strategies for writers , focusing on how to create smooth transitions that keep readers engaged. We dive into scene-level editing and editing scene flow , unpacking how clarity in transitions impacts focal length in narration and helps in maintaining story momentum . With these practical insights, you’ll gain actionable tools to strengthen your fiction and avoid common mistakes that derail storytelling flow.

In this episode of the Story Savvy Self-Editing Series, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring fantasy author Agnes Wolfe dig into one of the most overlooked but critical aspects of writing: transitions . From time jumps to POV shifts, and from white space to chapter breaks, they cover how to guide readers smoothly through changes without losing momentum or clarity.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

The basics of signaling jumps in time, location, and POV
Why clarity in transitions is vital for reader immersion
Common mistakes writers make with scene breaks
Structural rules for breaks (scene, chapter, or whitespace)
How to maintain momentum when transitioning
What “focal length” means and how it impacts storytelling
When to summarize versus dramatize passages of time
How to stay consistent with multiple timelines or POVs
Tips for handling fantasy-specific transitions like teleportation or time travel

Recommended Resources:

Need a Developmental Editor? Please check out my services here!
Author’s Alcove Membership: www.authorsalcove.com

See you next week for episode 38: Dialing Up Uniqueness!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 37 Transcript:

Handling Jumps in Time, Place, & POV

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 37 of the weekly story savvy series where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We have covered a bunch in this series so far, including last week's episode on scene level pacing for big and small moments. Today we are going to take a look at handling jumps in time, location, POV, or narrative focal length in fiction. By the end of this episode, you’ll hopefully know where to catch these potential glitches, what makes for a good transition, and how to fix one that’s jarring. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and cohost Agnes Wolfe. Welcome.

Agnes Wolfe: I am an inspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle-grade fantasy later next year and also host and founder of Authors Alcove. I’m here to tackle easing and clarifying the reader experience around transition, especially scene breaks and chapter breaks, and that’s right where I am in my own self editing, so I’m kind of excited to cover this. I would like to start with some of the most basic things that we should keep in mind when we are dealing with handling jumps in time, place, quite a few, and focal length. How soon should we let our reader know that the story has taken one of these jumps and how should we accomplish that?

Rebecca: First of all you want to let them know immediately and ideally use a chapter break or a scene break where you have one of these jumps the basics here are that you always need to be extremely clear when the story has jumped forward or changed in any of these other ways and set the reader up to know exactly where, when, and who is the reality of the other side of that jump and to do so immediately. So, don’t make your reader end up reeling from whiplash or getting confused or mentally, you know, groping around this blank, empty, unknown space or POV for a while after you jump, be that starting a new scene or a new chapter or anything like that. You never want to just teleport the reader into an unknown time in place or perspective, and you have to remember that the reader is just reading one word in front of the other. They don’t know what’s coming yet, which you as the author often do.

Agnes: Speaking of which, us writers, since we do know what’s happening, we often have, are blind to the issues here since we know what we meant, and we have a visual of things which the reader does not have. How can we be sure that our reader has made that jump with us and it didn’t just happen in our head because we knew that was supposed to happen?

Rebecca: So, there's a checklist that I suggest you go through, and you check the beginning of every new chapter in every new scene anywhere is applicable so step one is, or question one I should say, is it clear? Who is the POV character of that scene? Is it clear who the primary protagonist of the scene is if there are options for who that might be? Is it clear who does or says the first thing that is done or said in this new moment? Is it clear who is present on stage, so to speak, and this can be more of a general like, hey, is this a private setting or is this a public one where anyone might wander over at some point? And this is to avoid a new character, secondary character, sort of magically teleporting in the first time that they speak or have something to do when they were previously mentioned as being there. The next question is, is it clear how much time has passed since the last line of the last moment or scene or chapter before the break or the jump? And if that’s not natural to stay right there, can you place this new moment in the grander timeline? Can you say oh it’s this many weeks since this memorable event or this many weeks to this other event that we’ve been counting down to through the whole book. Next question is, is it clear where things are in the moment that we pick back up, specifically or generally? So, are we, you know, in a castle? Are we in a bedroom? Are we outside? Are we in a forest? Giving some sense of place is important. And then the last question on this checklist is, is all of these things clear in the first paragraph ideally the first sentence after the break? For example, a good transition line after a break might be something like, “Jordan angrily stabbed at their breakfast, glowering at Alex across the loud mess hall.” That tells the reader that we are in Alex‘s scene, that it is the morning after the last whatever, that we are in a mess hall, that Alex is also present, and that there are lots of other people also present who can later be defined as they approach or join into what’s happening without it feeling like they’re appearing out of nowhere. If you’re doing omniscient POV, also known as head hopping as a consistent and intentional choice, then each place the story hops from one head to another should be treated very delicately and gently like the kind of break that we are talking about here. And if nothing else with these tiny, very, very frequent breaks, you need to make sure there’s always clear which head you are in after each hop. You need to be clear whose head you are hopping into with each internal observation or opinion or emotion, anything like that.

Agnes: And one of the things that I was kind of thinking about was, so I just took five chapters and made them two, and one of the things that I found myself editing is that I had already introduced this person. I had already done this, but when I condensed it, I had to go, when I went and read, I’m like “oh I have to re-introduce that,” and I think that in our self-editing that’s probably one of the huge mistakes. Speaking of mistakes, what are some of the most common mistakes that you see writers make as development editor?

Rebecca: So specifically on today’s topic of handling these jumps and transitions there are a few that very easily jump to mind and I see these a lot in a lot of the books that I work on. Number one is not using scene breaks at all where a big jump is taken. When you skip ahead overnight or from one day to another crossed weeks or the other end of a journey you need to use at least a seam break. Mistake two, well OK so hold on, on that first one I want to clarify just a little bit more on that. It’s squishy how much of a skip needs a scene break and how much doesn’t generally if you’re skipping minutes or hours, you don’t need a scene break if you mention, oh, this much time has been skipped, we’re continuing the story. If it’s more than that, you probably need a scene break and if you don’t want to use one of the most important tools, there, is to make sure that you name the transition that happened to skip ahead to the to the end of the meal, or whatever, rather than just jumping to the far side of that gap. So then issue number two that I see very, very frequently is that, basically it’s not clear who’s POV things are in particularly in dual POV or multiple POV. When you start a new chapter, some people will just put the name as a subheading to the chapter and that’s great that clarifies that you don’t have to do that, but it does need to be clear immediately if there are multiple POV characters in the book, which one it is for that scene. And then the third common mistake that I will often see around these transitions is just a lack of context against the last scene. So, if the last scene closed in a certain time in place when you open the next one, you need to make it clear that it’s not that time and or not that place anymore because without establishing that the reader is going to have to assume that it is picking up right where the last one left off and that’s rarely the case.

Agnes: So, I know that there are words that we should use, but as far as like structurally are there certain rules surrounding jumps of time or place, such as scene breaks, chapter breaks or white space?

Rebecca : Is that what you mean by saying there’re words to use? Are you just talking about definitions there?

Agnes: No, I’m talking about structurally, is there rules about the white space?

Rebecca: Sure, so first of all white space is not a replacement for a scene break or a chapter break, and it should be used very sparingly, only where you’re jumping too little time for it to really qualify to have a full scene break there. Chapter breaks and scene breaks are pretty interchangeable. In particular chapter breaks are an arbitrary choice by the author, but our most commonly seen where you move on from everything that is clustered around one scene core event to the next, or to the to another one. A scene break can be used within a chapter, and it is most often used to skip boring stuff that the reader doesn’t need to see like I was talking about, use that to skip to the end of a meal, overnight, a couple of days ahead, whatever you want to do. That’s still keeping the narrative around whatever the Corvette for that chapter is. And then you can also use a scene break within a chapter to change from one POV to another, which I think we’ll touch on a little bit more later in this episode. The only rules, per se, that I can think of to mention right here are, number one, make sure that you name and or number your chapters. It doesn’t matter which one you want to go with, you could do both, but please use something like chapter one or, you know, introductions as a title for the chapter. Something like that. Rule number two is: use 3 asterisks, center aligned, as a scene break. It has to be some sort of symbol. Or I’ve seen very decorative ones but a piece of art, but that’s not expected before publication. Use some visual marker for your scene breaks. Rule three is don’t use white space brakes unless you have standard formatting for everything else if you have blank lines, so white space between just ordinary paragraphs going through the narrative, then trying to use white space extra to differentiate that sort of gap isn’t going to be visually catchable and it’s not going to work well, so avoid extra blank lines between your paragraphs, especially if you want to be using white space as a break at any point. Rule four is use some sort of mark to break anywhere that the story takes a big jump in time, location, POV, anything like that. No exceptions. There has to be some sort of March break, that could be a chapter break, scene break, or white space. And then point over five, rule number five here, is check the transitions around all three possible break types that I just listed for issues of reestablishing the where, when, and who or who’s. Again, no exceptions.

Agnes: So, when doing transitions from one place time to another, how can I make sure that what we write is smooth and doesn’t seem jarring or out of place to our reader? I know our goal is that our transition should feel seamless, invisible, so that the reader comes along with us and doesn’t even realize that oh this is a scene break.

Rebecca: So, there are different ways to approach this. A couple of the easy ones are, you can either state in the opening well so many time units later, so three days later, a week later, two months later, whatever. Or more ideally than that, if you want to up your craft a little bit, you can try showing that kind of thing like mentioning after breakfast in the opening line, which shows the reader I should say that a night has passed without having to state the next morning. Or as another example here, if you establish how long an upcoming journey is going to take before your characters set out on it then if you end the chapter, and you start the next one of them walking through the gates of this new city for example that’s all you need to do. You told the reader exactly how many days it was going to take. So just by showing that they have arrived you have handled that jump forward in time and location, and that’s all you need to do.

Agnes: How can we make sure that our story doesn’t lose momentum when transitioning in time and space?

Rebecca: Don’t do breaks too often. The rule of thumb that I tend to use and suggest around that is that if you can’t get at least 1000 words of the story happening in real time altogether before you need to do a jump, be that in time, location, or POV, you need to reassess how you have events or conversations grouped within your narrative. If in order to move forward, you need to constantly use chapter breaks, scene breaks, white space, ships of POV and they’re all these little, tiny, you know 200, 500, 700 word snippets that’s not working. You need to instead combine events into one day that you can show happening coherently. Or you need to gather up five or six conversations and put them into one longer conversation so that you don’t have to do these jumps too frequently. Also, though, on the other side of that, you don’t want to avoid using scene brakes where they are needed. So, within that lower constraint, use them liberally enough to leave every scene as early as possible, and arrive at the next one as late as possible. So if you have a bloated chapter look for a place where you could shave off a few paragraphs up to a few pages by using a scene break to skip over the boring stuff in the chapter, and instead, end the first scene of the chapter earlier and start the next one later by using that break to spare the reader stuff that they don’t really need to read in detail. Beyond that, confusion is just a huge momentum killer. So, clarifying when, where, and who the scene or chapter is opening with will help keep momentum up and let the readers stay fully in the story.

Agnes: So, we’ve brought up this freight or this idea a few times and I just want to make sure there’s a clear definition of what we’re talking about but what is focal length, which you mentioned earlier.

Rebecca: Focal length is how close to events the narration is and or whether or not things are unfolding in real time. For example, close focal length would be things like dialogue, emotions, or expressions, detailed actions, and that sort of thing. Distant focal length is describing a large backdrop before narrowing into the story unfolding it is using summary statements like, “they traveled for several days.” It could be providing backstory overviews in narration and other things like those. This topic here of focal length is the outlier in this set since you don’t really need to check that your focal distance is clear about whether or not it’s closer distant after each break, but it can be used to zoom in or out and help you avoid needing to use a break at all. If instead of using a break, be that white spacing break, chapter break, you instead decided to just zoom out and say something like, “they traveled for several days,” that zoom out can spare you needing to use a break that you would then need to ease the transition of. Choosing to zoom out for transitions, with or without a break there, can be a good choice, depending on specific instances, it’s not universally applicable, and really importantly you should only ever be using really distant or zoomed out focal length for transitions of some kind. You never want to be zooming out that focal length in an important ongoing moment like we talked about a little bit in the last episode of the series. Lastly, on this point, you need to actively move that transition in focal length at least a little bit in either direction, no matter where you are doing it. I don't think I phrased that clearly so let me try to clarify here. If you are moving from, let’s say dialogue, where everything is happening in real time you don’t want to then in the next paragraph just whammy it over into, “over the next three months they blah blah blah.” That’s going to be a little bit jarring, so spare a sentence here or there to sort of make that more of a zoom. Go from that dialogue to, “well and then they gathered up their belongings, and they moved towards the horses,” and then you can get to that super zoomed out. Or if you’re coming into a new scene or chapter even in a full book, when you’re describing, “Kalanthra is a land of plenty and these grand jungles cover most of these continents,” you can’t immediately then jump down into “so-and-so said this.” That’s going to be very, very jarring. You need to, again, look at this planet, however big, however zoomed out you’re starting, and zoom it in kind of stage by stage so that you aren’t leaping straight from either 20,000-foot view or real time into the other.

Agnes: That makes a lot of sense. My next question, I feel like we’ve already covered this, but I just want to make sure that we are covering all of our bases. When we do passage of time, for instance, when should we summarize you kind of covered what happened over the passage and when should we write it all out you’ve kind of covered that as well, but are there any other rules about summarizing that we have not yet discussed?

Rebecca: Summarizing can be seen as handling a passage in time, but it is also very much zooming out that focal length, like we were just talking about. To answer your question about how to make a call about whether to summarize something or not to, the question to ask yourself is essentially “how boring is it?” If the reader needs the details or if those details are particularly interesting, write them out in real time. If not, then if it’s just a wrap up from one thing or setting something else up or a transition of any kind to get just to the next part of the story then that is more likely a good place for things to be summarized. So if your protagonist is arriving at the mountain where they know they will be fighting their final battle, that probably has a lot of motion and adrenaline and preparation detail worth describing in real time; however, the process of them just walking for six days to get there can probably be a scene or chapter break where you are fully skipping that boringness. But then if, let’s say, they sit by their fire and meditate all night to prepare for the battle that might be a good place to simply zoom out, summarize it in a statement like, “they meditated all night in preparation for the battle” and then zoom back in once that real time interest comes back up the next morning. More generally on the topic of summarizing using that to briefly catch up the reader on what got skipped since the last scene, ideally in the first or second paragraph of the new one, is very often exactly the right choice for that moment and for what you need to do for the reader there. Anywhere else, anywhere that isn’t a transition, particularly a scene break or a chapter break, it is more likely to feel off to the reader if you’re summarizing. It’s more likely to feel like you are lazy, and you didn’t want to fill out what was actually happening there or you never really made a decision or like you’re withholding interest from them and none of that is good. When you choose to not use a break, so if you want to just use white space or not even white space to handle the jump, that zoom out summarize and zoom back in is absolutely what you can do there. So, for example you could say you know, “Sarah walked to town” and that summarizing can bridge that gap just like if you showed her preparing to leave and then used a break and then showed her arriving in town, as long as long as she’s not magically appearing there with no markers, you’re doing OK.

Agnes: This kind of goes along with what we’ve been talking about but I feel like consistency is important in writing, I think of books to have transition from one person to another really well, but I think it’s especially in jumping from past to present you know that go back-and-forth or have multiple different timelines that preparing the reader by having a certain set up is so key. So are there certain rules surrounding these aspects that we should consider if we are jumping timelines or POV even.

Rebecca: So, first of all yes, the Night Court is absolutely like my favorite book that handles multiple timelines well so if anyone needs an example, I recommend that. There are a few rules here to really, really help with multiple timelines. First if you remotely can try to do a direct 121212 alternation between the two timelines without breaking that pattern. Like you were just mentioning, establishing for the reader that they can have these expectations, and it will continue to be fulfilled is very, very helpful. Second, embed as many hits as you can in every scene about which age, or timeline, or what have you, that is happening in be that through the technology or the clothing, the government, anything like that. And third, keep the POVs and settings very distinct between all of your different timelines. Have, for example, one of them be an innocent viewpoint, somewhere bright, and hot and then the other timeline be a jaded personality, somewhere that is dark and damp. That way you have a pretty much inexhaustible variety in ways to signal that transition in just a couple of words. For example, even with first person narration, by opening after a chapter breaker scene break with something like, “I squinted into the sun, wondering, blah blah blah,” is very indicative of one personality, and then you can contrast that with opening a scene with something like, “I frowned and turned my collar up against the depressing damp.” Without naming a character, without naming a location or a timeline, both of those if you’ve established them, or are going to, are clear. The fact that it’s sunny tells the reader, “Oh, it's in that timeline.” The fact that this person is frowning and generally negative tells you that you’re in the other one. But also, more generally on the topic of consistency, I’m really glad that you brought that up here. Being consistent and establishing your own predictable patterns around person, tense and POV can be very, very important to the reader’s perception of it. In my own books, or at least the more recent ones, I try to have the POV character for that scene’s name be the first word the reader sees on that page. And for another example, if you want to use scene breaks to swap POVs within one chapter at any point in the story, it helps that not feel jarring if you also do that same multiple POVs in a chapter early on the story and then consistently throughout.

Agnes: You mentioned that we should not teleport our reader, but if we’re purposely trying to teleport our reader, like we actually have teleporting in, like we were talking about, fantasy or something. How do we handle that since we aren’t supposed to accidentally do that?

Rebecca: There’s a difference between teleporting your reader and teleporting your characters, so there can be overlap and how you want to look at this. You never want to teleport your reader, as in, they don’t have any explanation for why they are now in a different POV, time, place anything like that. When you’re teleporting your character, because your world actually has teleportation of some description, all you really have to do is name that and this can be with whatever terms you want to come up with for your world building. Voyaging, winnowing, aparation, anything like that can work just establish what that word means. And then you still want to go through your checklist of establishing the when, where, and who on the far side of that transition after every literal teleport, or time jump, or what have you.

Agnes: Well, thank you so much for your insight. It has always helped me, especially because I feel like we are talking through the portions that I am self-editing at the moment, which is always nice. Thank you.

Rebecca: Next week we are going to go deep into dialing up the uniqueness in fiction at the scene and page level, specifically. For now, I will thank everyone who follows along with this series. If you know any other authors who are nearing the end of their first draft or struggling with revising or rewriting their novel, please send them our way. The more authors that we can help understand and finish the process of self-editing the happier I will be. Thank you again.

Agnes: Can’t wait to see you next week.

See you next time!

Pacing — Big & Small Moments: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 36

Tue, 09 Sep 2025 21:47:35 GMT

Big & Small Moments: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript…

I failed to meaningfully address specificity as a great tool on this topic. More specific detail communicates higher importance and relevance. Generalizations and vagueness communicates lower importance and relevance. So, within your good judgement, what kind of scene you are working on, and maintaining balance between dialogue, action, and description (not overdoing any of them), try adding specificity to make moments bigger, and reduce specificity to make moments smaller.

Other episodes and topics mentioned in this one:

Episode 13: Global Story Pacing—Rises and Falls

Episode 18: Appropriate Intensity & Impact

Episode 25: Subplots & Plot Threads

Episode 30: Scene Core Events

Happy editing!

Episode 36 Overview:

Pacing — Big & Small Moments

“Do I need to pad out my story anywhere to make sure I deliver the right reader experience and make sure I’m not rushing past the best bits? Are there any smaller or less important moments I need to slim down so that the reader doesn’t get bored or think that something is more important than it is?”

We continue to discuss novel structure pacing in our series on self-editing strategies for writers. This time we focus on scene-level editing comparing scene pacing vs global pacing as we discuss writing big moments and small ones. Rebecca gives many author self-editing tips in this podcast for fantasy writers.

In episode 36 of the Story Savvy Self-Editing series, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring fantasy author Agnes Wolfe explore pacing at the scene level. They discuss how to sharpen big moments so they deliver and how to trim or cut small moments so they don’t exhaust readers. They also compare scene pacing to global pacing, discuss how to avoid accidental big moments, and explain how to handle unresolved Chekhov’s guns across series.

Rebecca explains how focus, stakes, and emotional weight make big moments resonate with readers, and why underwritten climaxes can collapse a novel’s momentum. They cover practical strategies for spotting overwritten small moments, preventing pacing burnout, and ensuring each scene supports the larger story arc.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

How to elevate your big moments so they feel impactful
Why accidental big moments can throw off your pacing
When small moments should be cut, trimmed, or dialed down
How to handle unresolved Chekhov’s guns across series
Common pacing mistakes that flatten climaxes and stall momentum

Recommended Resources

Author’s Alcove Membership: www.authorsalcove.com

Chapters

[00:13] Intro
[01:19] Scene Level Pacing
[02:11] Defining Big and Small Moments
[03:41] Scene Pacing versus Global Pacing
[04:40] Making Big Moments Feel Big
[06:21] Structure & Word Count in Big Moments
[08:33] Accidental Big Moments
[11:00] Small Moments vs. Deleted Scenes
[14:35] Unresolved Chekhov’s Guns Across Books
[16:21] Common Mistakes with Big Moments
[21:16] Small Moments Not Small Enough

See you next week for episode 37: Handling Jumps in Time, Place, & POV!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 36 Transcript:

Pacing — Big & Small Moments

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart bound editing podcast! This is episode 36 of the weekly Story Savvy series where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions you’ve wanted to. We have covered so much in this series so far, including the last two week’s episodes on discussing sensory immersion. So, sight, sound, touch, taste, and smell. Today, we are going to revisit story pacing, this time, looking at some new aspects of it. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully feel confident gauging whether or not your big moments are paying off and satisfying, and if your small moments are perhaps misleading and in need of tweaking. Joining me today to ask all the questions is my good friend and cohost, Agnes Wolfe. Welcome.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi! I’m an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle-grade fantasy later next year, and also I am the host and founder of Authors’ Alcove. So today I’m here to tackle this topic more at the scene level or, rather, page level, rather than the full global level. So first off, I’m kind of excited about this one because this is actually what I’ve been working on specifically through my series, and I’ve gotten quite a significant way through that, so this is really exciting. Anyway, I often like to make sure, before we even start, that we know exactly the definitions and all of that, and we don't necessarily need definitions but can you just talk specifically about what we are really talking about today?

Rebecca: We are talking about making sure that the moments that are actually important to your plot, characters, or world come across that way to the reader, and vice versa.

Agnes: So, what are we defining as big moments or small moments here? I know we’ve touched on this in previous episodes, but clearly it’s always helpful to start out with.

Rebecca: Absolutely. Big moments have high stakes, high emotions, big reveals, point-of-no-return choices or actions, or are a vital precise setup for something that is going to come later with a nice payoff, or they can be the wrap-up and payoff of an existing plot thread that was set up earlier. On the other side, small moments are everything else. Or, if you want to get narrower in that definition, they’re the moments that are needed to transition from one thing to another, are needed to account for realistic time passage within a conversation or scene, or moments that only exist to set up something in more of a general, background way, be that characterization, or world building, or tone, something like that.

Agnes: So, how is this topic different than episode 13, and how are they also related?

Rebecca: Here, we are looking at the aspects you can tackle by just reading the one page with the moment on it. In episode 13, we were talking about tackling the pacing of the whole book, or acts and sequences of scenes, and how each chapter scores with an eye towards adding, deleting, rewriting, or rearranging scenes to maximize your story pacing at the global and holistic level, and in those senses. What we are talking about here is more how you are delivering those small moments within a scene or chapter to fine-tune that pacing, and making sure that it will be perceived by the reader how you intended it to be.

Agnes: So, lets first tackle big moments. How can we make our big moments feel like big moments?

Rebecca: Doing so is all about narrowing focus; forcing the protagonists to deeply and irreversibly interact with that moment, making sure that noticeable stakes and a needed choice are inherent in that moment, and to some extent about adding extra movement to big action moments and extra description, or big revelations, or seed-planting moments to those kind of big moments, to make sure that they’re all landing right. A couple other aspects to keep an eye on around helping these big moments land include, first of all, you can try naming some small aspect of that bigness, or a larger part of that bigness, within the narration, dialogue, or internal processing, to help it feel like a big moment. You can also make sure that you are showing that the immediate consequences and resolution of that moment are deeply felt and impactful to how things move forward to really hammer home how big the event itself was. It’s all about reader experience, really. If a big moment doesn’t feel big when it’s happening, it’s really going to confuse or disappoint your reader.

Agnes: So, when I think of big I also think of visually big, but I do want to ask you, are there certain things we should consider around word count, or descriptions, or other areas that have more to do with the actual structure of a big moment, rather than the actual sharing and emotional experience? Are those related at all?

Rebecca: Sort of? I don't have a super clear answer that I can offer here. Sometimes, shorter or less described moments can feel smaller, particularly in slower-paced scenes. However, shortening narrative and reducing description can also make a big moment feel bigger in a fast-paced scene. I think that in general, the actual structure of a big moment versus a small one is how much emphasis and attention you put on the moment. So in some spots, longer passages can really hold focus, force deep exploration of the moment, and really push a ton of meaning and interest into it. In other spots, padding things out with more description that are more background or tertiary to the moment at hand can help make it feel smaller by mixing the moment in with a lot of other smallness. You really have to make that call for yourself in each moment, bearing the other considerations that we are going to go over in this episode in mind. I will say, the closest thing I will do to a blanket statement here is, overwriting small moments and under-writing big moments is the most common issue that I see by a mile, but those are both very squishy terms, over-writing and under-writing, with a wide range of specific definitions, meanings, or applications depending on the moment that’s being looked at.

Agnes: Speaking of that over-writing and under-writing, how can we tell if we have written an accidental big moment?

Rebecca: Ooh, tricky question. First, I want to say that, if I’m understanding this question correctly, I might rephrase it as “what happens when you write a small moment that feels way bigger than it should.” Because at the end of the day, that’s what an accidental big moment is, phrased in a way that correctly identifies it as a small moment, which then allows you to more easily reach for a solution. How you can spot this can be very, very tricky. Getting feedback on that from outside readers is how I can say confidently I have found and fixed issues like that in my own work. It might also help to go back to that concept of ranking things, aspects, moments, by impact and intensity, which I’m pretty sure I went over in episode 18, on intensity. So, if you have a handful of moments which you suspect might be coming across as bigger than they should, try assigning them an honest number for how intense or big the stakes, emotion, or impact on how the plot moves forward are. Where does that fall against the same score for a big moment you are sure is actually a genuine big moment? Then rank how “big” you think those two moments are coming across, being portrayed to the reader in your language, and descriptions, and balances, and everything else. Look for disparity between those two sets of scores. If your authentic big moment is, let’s say, an intensity score of eight out of ten, but then the less big moment you are questioning only scores four out of ten, but they are both being presented to the reader like eight out of ten, then you need to very much go in and lower the presented bigness of the lower intensity one so that they are more proportional to each other. I hope that makes sense.

Agnes: It really does. So I feel like this question is kind of an offshoot of that question, but this time specifically talking about small moments. When do we know if it really is supposed to be a small moment, or maybe it should be a deleted scene?

Rebecca: Yea, this one hits me in the author. So, it’s relevant to talk about this because you don’t want to overburden your reader with things they feel like they need to remember or emotionally invest in when that isn’t the case. If you treat too many things, or everything, like it’s a big deal, then the reader will quickly burnout on that and nothing will continue to feel big by comparison. Sometimes this can be used intentionally as red herrings, like in a mystery novel, but I recommend against doing so often. Only use it sparingly, and try to only do it in appropriate genres that expect red-herrings. Outside of that, I encourage folks to read up on Chekov's gun. I assume that most readers have at least heard of this, go read an article on it. Essentially, if you put any kind of emphasis on introducing a gun, or metaphor for it, early on in the story, that gun had better go off later in the story. Otherwise, you are presenting a small moment of introducing a gun as bigger than it should have been. If that gun doesn't go off later in the story, readers will feel like the book is poorly designed, poorly conceived, poorly executed, or poorly edited. So, if you want to introduce something for the sake of it, as flavoring or immersion, or for a similar reason, then make sure it feels as equally small as intended, and that will spare your reader this feeling or conclusion about the poor quality of the story. So, how you make a small moment feel small is keep the protagonist more interested in something else, pushing the thing more to the background, more to the side of the focus. You can just describe it less. That’s probably the most common issue and solution that I see. You can make the protagonist’s reaction to that moment flatter, so removing or dimming that emotional reaction to the moment. You can reducing the stakes and you can shortening how long the thing, or the moment, is discussed. There’s a handful of other tools you can try. It really, really depends on the specifics of the exact moment, and what considerations are currently making it feel too big which needs to be dialed down. So, speaking directly to your question of how do you know if it’s just a small moment that needs to get dialed down, or scrapped entirely, just go back to that purpose. Is it serving a purpose? If you took it out, would it create a plot glitch somewhere else? Would it make conversation that you are saying take 30 minutes feel like it only took 10? There’s something in there to assess and at the end of the day, you need to make that call.

Agnes: So, I have a question specifically, actually about my book, is, I had a Chekov’s gun situation that did not have the trigger pulled at the end. So, you pointed that out and I realized it’s because I actually needed it to happen that way something happens in another book, but I forgot to reintroduce it later on so that you, as the reader, did not… You were like “Ok this was a pointless situation, you should take that out”, and I was like, “Oh”. So how would you suggest letting people know, OK this may not be as small as it seems when it might not pertain immediately.

Rebecca: I feel like I've talked about this from a different angle in earlier episodes in the series. If you want to do a moment like that, that is setting up a Chekov’s gun that isn't intended to go off until book four, touch on it again at the end. If within the narration, or your character specifically, inside themselves or to another character, acknowledge, “Hey, wasn’t that a thing?” and name that it is left unanswered. That allows the reader to go, “I see the author is remembering it, we will get to that”. That’s all that really matters. You just need to acknowledge, “Hey, I did ask you to invest in this, and I did ask you to remember this, and I did put emphasis on this. In this last chapter, or second or third to last chapter of this book, I’m just going to take a sentence here and reassure you that was intentional. We will get to that, bear with me.”

Agnes: So, what is, I feel like I ask this every episode, but what is one of the biggest mistakes you’ve seen writers make around not treating the big moments like they are that? Or, particularly, in a way that really hurt their pacing?

Rebecca: First of all, I think it's great that you ask this question in every episode. One of my favorite sayings, literally as long as I can remember, has been, “The only thing better than learning from your mistakes is learning from the mistakes of others”. That is what a lot of this series is about so continue asking this question. To answer that, the first thing that comes to mind is there was one book I edited, I think it was late last year, where the climax took less than one full page. It had great buildup in the story up to that point, great escalating tensions leading up through that third quadrant, and then wham bam thank you ma’am it was over. This is kind of an extreme example, as the climax is and or should be the biggest big moment of an entire book, but it’s a clear one. So, in that case, the issues around this big moment not delivering like a big moment were layered. First of all, the author didn’t make the big moment hard enough to reach the far side of. So, when you look at a big moment, you’ve got some build up to it, and then let's say this is the big moment. There’s space there, and making it more difficult to get to the other side can very much increase the bigness of that moment. If that author had added a few hurdles, setbacks, twists, barriers, and or difficult choices for the protagonist to make, that would have helped a lot. Second layer on that, they didn’t narrow their focus, as the narrative, as the protagonist, or for the reader. The protagonist was still thinking about the subplots pretty heavily while they were in that pivotal climax of the primary plot, which kept it from feeling emotionally big. In real life, when something really matters, we give it our full and undivided attention. Writing big moments in fiction should absolutely reverse engineer that to give that same sense to the protagonist and the reader. And then the last layer on this that I feel is worth mentioning here is, that the author described some vital details during the climax needed to understand what was happening. Yes, I will acknowledge this could be taken as hypocritical. I constantly recommend explaining things just in time for it to be very relevant versus just in case, but the climax is an exception. The reader has to know everything they need to in order to understand the climax before they get there. At the latest, all of the technical know-how, the world building, the power establishment, whatever, those pieces need to be in place and understood by the end of the chapter before the climax chapter. If that means that a certain aspect that is going to get used in the climax needs to be forced to become relevant earlier in the story so that you can do that just-in-time explanation before the climax, then so be it. That is the right choice, rather than waiting until the climax to go, “Oh, by the way dragons are a thing” or whatever the piece is that you would need to explain the climax. Find a way to bring it up tangibly before then and do the explanations there. The big moment failing to feel like or failing to be presented as such results in all momentum of the story being snuffed out in a beat. All of the momentum the author had done a really, really good job of building up in this story that I’m thinking of, over probably seventy thousand words, maybe eighty thousand words, just winked out when that climax failed to payoff the catharsis promised. Without high stakes, high emotions, large victories, be that internal or external, a sense of sacrifice or loss, or whatever other values you want to equate to “big” in your specific genre and story, the moment will not pay off. And that is second only really to expositional stagnation for stopping momentum dead in its tracks.

Agnes: So, I just want to wrap up real quick, I do have one last question. What about, it’s kind of the same question, what about not making small moments feel small enough, and how does that affect the pacing?

Rebecca: When your small moments don’t feel small enough, you run the risk of your pacing constantly pushing too hard, which can burn out your readers, and I've touched on this a little bit before here. The most common issue that I see on this topic is authors describing everything like it matters a lot. That just isn’t feasible in fiction. I am sure that some real, living people feel like every tiny thing in their real lived-life, every minute of it is a Very Big Deal, but most people don’t, and would probably agree that that sounds exhausting, and probably insanity-inducing. So, remembering that having some small moments in and around the big ones is a much better mindset and approach for fiction. Yes, I suggest emphatically and often that you not bore your reader, but sometimes you do have to mention a meal being eaten, or a car being driven, or a piece of clothing being assessed for value or status, something like that. And doing so in a way that supports the big moment that I suggest that all scenes be built around, that scene core event, go back to episode 30 I think it was. Keeping that balance so that it is supporting the big moment but doesn't steal the focus away from that big moment is the goal. I have edited a number of books where I ended up mentally exhausted trying to keep track of everything in order to provide good feedback on what I thought was a cram-packed, super complicated plot with tons of foreshadowing, only to reach the end and realize in retrospect that less than a quarter of those “hey! Look at me! Remember this detail!” moments actually were that. I ended up needlessly mentally exhausted by all of those small moments coming across like I really needed to notice and remember them, and readers are going to, again, find that either disappointing or frustrating when they reach the end and go, “Are you kidding me? I didn't have to remember all those details? Why did you do this to me?”

Agnes: Thank you so much for your insight, I really appreciate all that you shared, and I think this episode, particularly because this is what I’m focused on, is very important and I might have to review some of the things that you said because this is exactly what my round of edits have been, looking at the scene level, making sure that the pacing is right, making sure that that scene is important. Although, I am touching back on the beginning, too, a little bit at the moment, but again, it's because I'm looking at the overall pacing of scenes and importance of stuff. Thank you very much.

Rebecca: You’re very welcome and it’s delightful when one of these topics is very much where you are at. It feels good! So, thank you to everyone who has followed along with this series. We would very much appreciate it if you could like and subscribe to The Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Author’s Alcove podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy readers and authors beyond this joint series. Next week, we’re going to go over how to best handle and present to your reader jumps in time, location, and POV in narrative fiction, and how to check and polish those spots in your own manuscript. Looking forward to it!

Agnes : I can’t wait to chat with you again —see you then!

See you next time!

Sensory Immersion - Touch, Smell, & Taste: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 35

Tue, 02 Sep 2025 22:00:04 GMT

Touch, Smell, & Taste: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript…

Didn't think of anything add after recording!

Happy editing!

Episode 35 Overview:

Sensory Immersion - Touch, Smell, & Taste

“Am I using sounds beyond dialogue and visual descriptions to add to my world building, deepen immersion, and add interest to my story?”

Today we discuss how to improve your fiction by writing immersive descriptions, sensory writing techniques, and editing descriptive passages. This episode in our podcast for fantasy writers not only gives show don’t tell writing tips, but covers the last three senses in our two part series on writing with our senses. These will help you to avoid flat scenes, build believable settings, and master self-editing for authors.

Developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell joins fantasy author Agnes Wolfe in the second part of the two part episode set on how to organically and strategically use sensory immersion. They discuss smell, touch, and taste; the three lesser used senses in descriptive writing.

In episode 35 of the Story Savvy Self-Editing series, they unpack:

How scent can convey emotion, world, or memory
What “balance” really means in descriptive writing
Why touch is often most powerful during high emotion
When to add or cut taste/smell details in revision
How to link sensory details to character bias
Mistakes to avoid when describing lesser senses
Using senses like “smelling salts” to recapture attention

Resources:

Need a Developmental Editor? Check out the 'Services' tab above!
Author’s Alcove Membership: authorsalcove.com

Fantasy Book Giveaway: authorsalcove.org

See you next week for episode 36: Pacing — Big & Small Moments

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 35 Transcript:

Sensory Immersion - Touch, Smell, & Taste

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 35 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we are tackling the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We have covered a bunch in this series so far, including last week's episode on sights and sounds in the context of sensory immersion. Today, we are going to take a look at taste, touch, and smell. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully feel confident checking if you have all five senses in your story and have a solid grasp on how to use them all well. Joining me today to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolfe. Welcome.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle-grade fantasy later next year, and also, host and founder of Author’s Alcove. I am here today to finish up talking about the sensory descriptions in self-editing. So, my very first question is, we went over sight and sound last week, and now we're doing taste, smell and, I'm missing one, touch. Yes. So, why aren't we covering all of them together in one episode?

Rebecca: I touched on this briefly last week. It's essentially that sight and sound are far more important than these other three are, so I wanted to put full emphasis on nailing those as a requirement of self-editing versus these three senses, which are more optional flavoring to play with in self-editing if you feel like there is value in that for you.

Agnes : I definitely agree. I feel like these senses are generally a lot less important to a story than sight and sound, like we talked in our last episode. So, if we do want to use them in our story, by the way, you did beautifully, and I'm going to be talking about that in just a little bit, do we need to use them as much?

Rebecca : No, not even close. These three senses, again, are optional. But smell can help connect your protagonist's memories or reactions to your readers at a deep level. Tastes can add to immersion, and touch can really ground your reader in the protagonist's POV and do a lot to connect your protagonist to their world and other characters. All three of these can deepen your worldbuilding and add interest to your story. The trick is to not go overboard with any of these senses, as overwriting descriptions of these three senses is likely to feel like shoe leather, or purple prose, or fluff, or however you want to describe that. You just need to find the balance of including these three lesser senses, but not over-including a bunch of mentions of them.

Agnes: So what exactly does balance mean in this particular context, if you don't mean equally represented, which is what I'm understanding.

Rebecca: Correct. So, if you want to use them all, there is no minimum requirement to meet. At most, I suggest thinking of them kind of like a Fibonacci sequence. If you want to include as much of them as you reasonably can. Sight gets the most representation. Then, sound. Then touch, then smell, and then taste comes in last. And this is all in descending frequency, or number of words, however you want to measure this representation. However, this is frankly way more thought than any author should be putting into this. So, I suggest just asking yourself a couple of really, really quick questions to help you find and keep this balance kind of on the extreme end of inclusion. First of all, ask yourself which of those goals with sensory immersion that I listed in my answer to your last question that you want to achieve. Are you wanting to invoke memories, immerse the reader, connect the protagonist to the reader, things like that, or connect them to their arena. And then ask yourself, which senses do your protagonist or your POV character emphasize in their experience of their world? And their personality and processing and priorities? With those two answers in mind, make a choice about what scents you want to use to achieve that goal with that filter and just pay attention to that hierarchy of sight, sound, touch, smell, taste, which, you know, most people, most characters and books use in that order in order to avoid overusing those that are lower down the list, or underusing those that are higher up.

Agnes: So, one of the things that I can think of a couple books, actually that when they use scent, specifically scent for each of them, they did such a great job just tying in that you almost it was almost like the scent had its own personality. And one of the books is Heart of Flame by Rebecca Maeve Hartwell. So, I know, like, in your book, smell is tied to a portion of your character's magic, and that reveals characteristics of that person's magic, and I just think you just said in such a beautiful way and it really just helped you enhance your character through that sense and smell. Do you mind me asking you why you chose to build your world in that way? And in answering that I'm hoping you will also answer the question, how can you write smell specifically or touch in a way that enhances your reader's understanding or not, just the world, just the entire world for your characters? Because I feel like you did such a beautiful job, and I think that you can hopefully impart some of that wisdom to us.

Rebecca: Well, first of all, thank you very much for the compliment, I very much appreciate that, but I didn't build my world with that in mind. But in my self-editing, I was looking for a way to use more sensory immersion and, importantly, to differentiate my elemental auras from my color auras, and attaching smells to Angie's aura and temperatures and moisture content to Daniels as a touch sensation worked really well, so I ran with that. When it comes to using smell and touch to help readers understand your world and characters, I have a few pieces of advice, both from my own books and from editing other people's. First, try to use these three senses to show what you would otherwise tell, and to convey subtext, like I mentioned in the last episode. So, for example, smell has the strongest connection to memory, so rather than your protagonist just smelling cinnamon rolls as a mention for the sake of it, make that cause them to then feel and act nostalgically. Or have them react with disgust to the smell of cinnamon rolls to catch the reader's curiosity and attention, and illustrate that perhaps this character is very bitter and just the kind of person who hates what everybody else likes because everybody else likes it, that kind of thing. My second piece of advice is, try to specifically tie smells or physical sensations to specific emotions or big events. For example, in my books, each different scent of Angie's smoke and fire aura directly corresponds to her emotions in that moment. I have a whole spreadsheet for myself of this emotion equals this kind of smoke smell.

Agnes: And you did a really good job portraying that, too.

Rebecca: Thank you. I tried to come up with connections like cedars is protective and Wet Ash is sad, stuff like that. Anyway, the fact that there is that emotional connection is a big part of why the smells are impactful, why you and other people like that. And then, similar to that, with Daniel's use of his cane. So that kinetic, that sense of touch connection is very much connected to and tied into his masked identity in this dark order of the Patricians, which I bring up to the surface and directly address in Book 4. If neither of those aspects were tied as deeply into the emotions and traumas of those characters as they are, they wouldn't be as memorable or impactful to the reader at all. And then my third piece of advice here is, anywhere the reader might be zoning out a little bit in a scene, you can use touch, taste, and smell like smelling salts. You can use a clear but concise sensory moment to pull the reader back down from thinking into experiencing the story, which can really, really help to refocus their attention if things are dragging or meandering a little bit too much.

Agnes: So, I know you touched on this a little earlier, but how can we really tell if we don't have enough of these senses, or actually even too much.

Rebecca : If you are worried about not representing these senses enough. I would suggest finding one single moment of smell, taste, and touch in a full-life novel, and that is it. That is a very low bar for minimum. If you can find one moment of each or find the spot where adding that would be meaningful and impactful, if you want to, do it. But on the other side of that, I think that there is a lot of variation in what can feel like too much. For example, if you are writing about a chef going to culinary school then taste and smell should get a lot of representation, more than in other books, other genres. And if your protagonist is blind, then touch is probably an enormous factor compared to most novels. Outside of those obvious outliers, and if the sort of priority ratio that I was talking about with kind of that Fibonacci sequence visualization for it isn't working for you, then I do generally recommend a couple rules of thumb. First, taste and smell should be mentioned no more than once per chapter or at a stretch if it is very, very relevant, once per page. Touch should only be mentioned once per page, except for sex scenes or other places where it is really, really important to what is happening and what that scene is about. And then I also just really want to mention that I am already thinking of exceptions to these rules, so do not take them as law. Do not take them as writing rules that you need to follow. I just really want writers and listeners to this podcast to think about these aspects and to make their own judgment calls about whether they are overusing or underusing any of these senses, and if they want to, change that in either direction.

Agens: So, I think it's important that you mention that it's more like a guideline than a rule, especially since most of us writers, as we were just recently talking about, are somewhat on the neurodivergent, a wide range of us, I feel like, majority of us are somewhere in the neurodivergent sphere. And we tend to take things as rule, but yes, we’ve got to remember, these are all just guidelines. These are if you want to be the best writer that you can be follow these guidelines, but break them. Sometimes.

Rebecca: And again. Feel it out. If it feels relevant to you, then run with it. If it feels frustrating and irrelevant and you can't do anything with this particular piece of advice, you have my complete and permanent blessing to ignore it.

Agnes: So, for someone like me, who I tend to read for experiential, I might not necessarily remember details or anything like that, but I remember, like, how I felt and that sort of thing. So, when I write, I often think from that and forget to use senses. So, someone like me, what would be some tips or, I don't know, skills that we could help develop. What are some forgotten ways to describe things or give an immersive experience using, you know, smell, taste, touch.

Rebecca: Smells… so, speaking specifically to spots where I think it's often forgotten, or helpful things to bear in mind if you're not sure where to include these senses. Smells are often thought about or experienced acutely when walking through a doorway or, in other moments where a new arena is being entered or explored. Touch is most often relevant in moments of interaction. Be that with another character or objects and the arena. And I suggest just adding texture, descriptors, like rough, or smooth, two existing descriptions, rather than falling into the expositional telling of, “the blank was smooth and warm to so-and-so's touch”. Just say the rock was smooth. I promise that's enough. And then taste doesn't have to be named as sweet, or salty, or fruity, or spicy, or whatever. In order to include taste as a sensory moment just describe a certain food or beverage being consumed. Leave the rest to the reader's memory of the last time they themselves ate that same food.

Agnes: One thing that I was thinking about as you were talking is how they often say that smells is very closely tied to memory and so I think that would be a really good way to really develop a character, is by having a certain smell remind them of something, and that might be a good way of doing that. But speaking specifically about writing characters, we might want to lean on, I think about how we might want to lean on certain senses for certain characters. For instance, Angie, you know, there's certain smells, you know, you chose to use it in that way, but also, just their experience with smells. For instance, if I was writing a character like myself, I might notice my shoes feel uncomfortable. I do not like shoes, by the way. If something bothering me, or the water smells weird, or something like that. Whereas if I was writing about my husband. He can taste something and know exactly what flavors are in this, and he can create that meal because they took a bite of it at a restaurant, and he knows, okay, it has this, this, this, this. I'm like, how do you do that? But that would not be me. So, here's my question. What are some common mistakes people do when trying to build that character in that way, and how can we do that to really enhance it as well?

Rebecca: First of all, I think that is a fantastic point to bring up here. With all sensory description, like I mentioned last week, it can and should absolutely be used to illustrate who the characters are, what they want, everything like that. It can also illustrate what they notice, what they choose to prioritize in their observations and what words they use to process or describe what their senses are picking up on. So, if you want to use this intentionally, in drafting or editing, using these three lesser senses in particular to inform the reader about your characters, then I suggest adding statements about these sensory considerations to your character statements in your series Bible. So, that could be something like you just said, Agnes is most sensitive to touch sensory input from clothing, shoes, wind, etc. And then for a different character, you could put something like, So-and-so has a keen sense of smell and is a picky eater. Things like that. Then, just think about your story, and jot down anywhere you can think of where that is the most relevant, or the most likely to be relevant, and go add in those little details and just a few little words sprinkled here and there. Some common mistakes that I see around this are that all of the characters have the same biases, which obviously speaks to the author just projecting their biases into the whole story. Or a different issue is when none of the characters, or too few of the characters, have any preferences or opinions, or idiosyncrasies around anything sensory-related, and or that things fall into swaths of exposition to cover all of the sensory description the writer wanted to do, in which case I refer you back to episode 31 on avoiding scene stagnation, and the upcoming episode on info dump and exposition.

Agnes: So, can we just pick anything to describe with these senses, or is there, things that we should definitely consider?

Rebecca: Again, think about how it can help establish or maintain a tone. Think about how it could hint at subtext or a subplot, maybe. Think about how it can illustrate an aspect of the character and that sort of things. But, at the end of the day, yes, you can describe whatever you want to, as long as it has some shade of purpose to it. And to be clear, both sensory immersion as its own thing, and trying to keep that dialogue, action, and description balance in good shape on each page as its own thing, are both valid reasons for including a sensory description.

Agnes: I feel like I already know the answer to this based on what you've already shared, but I'm going to ask anyway. Is it worth adding a whole new scene, or moments, or just paragraphs, or whatever, to be able to mention all of these senses? What if food just isn't relevant to your story, or you'd have to deviate from the moving plots to mention taste?

Rebecca: There is no universal guideline here. What you need to ask yourself is how important is including a given sense to you, as an author, just emotionally. Or how important is that sense to your character? For example, if that character mentions being a picky eater out loud to someone else in the story but you never show them eating and feeling feelings about that food that's a bit of a problem. You might want to spend a sentence to plug that hole. The closest that I will come to giving a concrete answer to this is that, no, adding a whole chapter or scene or page to include a sense somewhere is overkill. That is absolutely overkill. Adding a paragraph? Or slightly reworking a scene? Might be reasonable, if it feels important. But adding a sentence or two, or a word or two here and there should be easy and not run much risk of adding exposition, or ending up with descriptive shoe leather.

Agnes: One thing I was thinking about as far as touch, I'm thinking about myself, and I was thinking I was thinking about my characters, how do they feel? And I think also, one of the ways that we could even do touch is, think about how we feel, like when we're agitated, and sometimes, okay, I hate shoes. That's just a weird thing about me. But I don't notice my shoes as often as when I'm irritated, stressed, excited, then all of a sudden, these shoes seem to be way more important in those moments, and I think that we can actually take that, because I don't think that's unique to me. And so just being you know, “the shirt felt really tight”, and that's kind of showing, oh, this person is having strong feelings right now.

Rebecca: I think that's a fantastic point, and I experience a lot of the same. I know when I'm tired and frustrated, my sense of smell becomes much more relevant in my life, and I don't like a lot of what I smell in the world, so you can absolutely use that, and I'm so glad you brought that up.

Agnes: So anyway, we do need to wrap up. I do have one last question, specifically when writing an action scene, I kind of asked this last time, fast-paced scene, and also a slow-er scene as well. How might we use these tools differently depending on the pacing of a particular scene?

Rebecca: I will answer this now looking at all five senses. I think last week I answered just talking about sight and sound. So looking at all senses, and to an extension, all descriptions. I will, I'll take a whack at this. First of all, there are exceptions to every rule.

But my personal experience has largely been that, less description, or at least much shorter and plainer descriptions can help a fast-paced scene whose purpose is momentum, feel even faster, and can make a slower-paced scene feel unfinished or extra boring. On the other side, longer, more involved poetic descriptions, or just more sensory descriptions can really drag down a fast-paced scene. But it can also really help round out a slower scene and lend its function more towards the deep immersion, which is what you want to go with slow paced scenes, so I hope that's helpful.

Agnes: Definitely. Anyway, I just want to thank you so much for all of your insight. It has helped me so much.

Rebecca: You are entirely welcome. Next week we are actually going to revisit pacing, so this is a good segue here. This time we're going to do it at the scene level, including talking about page-level wax and wane in that pacing, and making big moments feel big, and vice versa.

For now, big thank you to everyone who follows along with this series. We would appreciate it if you could help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Authors Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy readers and authors beyond this joint series. Thank you all very much.

Agnes: Can't wait to chat, too, with you then. See you then.

See you next time!

Sensory Immersion - Sight & Sound: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 34

Tue, 26 Aug 2025 21:50:51 GMT

Sight & Sound: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript…

I failed to meaningfully address specificity as a great tool on this topic. More specific detail communicates higher importance and relevance. Generalizations and vagueness communicates lower importance and relevance. So, within your good judgement, what kind of scene it is, and maintaining balance between dialogue, action, and description (not overdoing any), add specificity to make moments bigger, and reduce specificity to make moments smaller.

The other episodes I mention in this one are Episode 25: Subplots & Plot Threads , and Episode 31: Avoiding Scene Stagnation .

Happy editing!

Episode 34 Overview:

Sensory Immersion - Sight & Sound

“Am I using sounds beyond dialogue and visual descriptions to add to my world building, deepen immersion, and add interest to my story?”

In this episode of our podcast for fantasy authors, we dive into self-editing strategies for writers focused on sensory immersion through visual and auditory descriptions—critical yet often overlooked elements of story world development. Developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell shares insights on using descriptive details to actively shape character actions and scene direction, and improve the reader experience. Learn how integrating sights and sounds beyond dialogue can heighten immersion, deepen your POV, and reinforce tone.

Developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell is joined by the host of Author's Alcove Agnes Wolfe in this first of two episodes on how to check that you are using enough sensory description in your novel, and that all five senses are balanced.

Chapters:

00:00 Introductions

01:42 Why Only Sight & Sound Today

03:20 What Gets Forgotten The Most

04:47 Using Senses To Strengthen POV

08:49 Tips Around Adding More Visual & Auditory Descriptions

13:08 What TO Describe Early In A Novel

16:39 Forgotten Opportunities For Sensory Descriptions

19:26 Writing More Purposeful Descriptions

21: 20 Common Mistakes

23:24 Genre Expectations Of Sensory Descriptions

25:42 Different Scene Types For More Or Less Description

27:19 Using Sensory Description To Affect Momentum

29:55 Wrap-Up

Resources:
Author’s Alcove Membership: www. authorsalcove.com

Fantasy Book Giveaway: www. authorsalcove.org

See you next week for episode 35: Sensory Immersion—Touch, Smell, & Taste!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 34 Transcript:

Sensory Immersion - Sight & Sound

Rebecca Hartwell : Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 34 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great, as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We have covered a bunch in this series so far, including the last two episodes on tangible and intangible world building. Today, we are going to take a look at self-editing for sights and sounds. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully feel confident checking your use of sight and sound cues and descriptions in your book to make sure that your novel is immersive, interesting, and balanced. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my good friend and co-host, Agnes Wolfe. Welcome.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later next year, and also host and founder of Author’s Alcove. I'm here today to tackle the topic of sensory immersion between the episode and the next. I think that one of the biggest pieces of advice editors and teachers will write to writers I hear all the time is, show, don't tell. And I think writing through all of our senses is a huge part of that. Although today, we are only covering two of our senses, and next week we will be going over the three others. What senses do you feel writers tend to neglect most frequently, and why are you starting with these two?

Rebecca: Sure. So… First off, yes, show don't tell can apply to using sensory immersion, and we will be doing a whole episode just on show, don't tell later in the series, so we will get into it very deeply when we get to that topic. Why I'm getting to sights and sounds first is because I feel like these two are mandatory to include in any kind of book, perhaps an exception if your characters are blind or deaf but, the other three are more optional, so tackling these two that I feel is more mandatory. Again, first off is why we're separating it out. So, talking to the other points there, I think that most people easily reach for sight when they think about adding sensory immersion. Sound is probably the second most easy-to-reach for and grasp automatically, and then taste, touch, and smell are probably the most neglected. But that's okay. I think that it's fine to prioritize things in that way. You really don't need to, or even shouldn't, use all of these senses in equal amounts. In fact, I recommend that you don't even get anywhere near trying to use all five senses in equal amounts, and we will talk about that in a lot more detail next week. For this episode, in regards to what gets forgotten the most around sight and sound specifically, I would readily say that it is sound other than dialogue, and adequate visual descriptions of the protagonist that I notice lacking in a lot of novels. So, if you want to do the simplest, quickest check on these two senses, make sure that you are including some sounds that have nothing to do with speaking or language, and that you are telling your readers how to picture your main character, although I do warn you away from going overboard with that particular one. I typically recommend, for describing your protagonist, that you provide rough age, gender, height approximate. Hair color, and one other distinct characteristic, and that could be scars, freckles, tattoos, piercings, makeup, anything like that, and that you spread these out over a few early mentions in the book. You don't cram it all into one paragraph, but you also don't wait until halfway through the book to mention one of these details. You can obviously decide you want to provide more visual details about your protagonist, but this is a baseline to start with, if you need one.

04:47 Agnes: So, I know that we often use, especially, visual and sound to really do a lot of our world building, but I know that one of the goals that we want to make sure that we're doing is that also making sure that the experience is through our point of view character's experience. So, thinking specifically about sound and sight, because that's what this one's about, how can we go beyond just writing the visuals of the world but making it more about our point of view characters' experience?

Rebecca: This is a great question and a great point. So, just to reiterate pretty much what you just said there, focusing on these senses can really help get into the character's head, and this applies for the author as much as the reader. I have found that really leaning into these sights and sounds and other senses can very much help the writer stay in a particular character's POV and avoid head-hopping. When I find head-hopping in books, this is one of the tools that I will recommend for addressing that or catching that. So, to your question specifically. There are a few ways that you can use sights and sounds more meaningfully about your character's experiences. First, try using descriptions to illustrate what the characters are paying attention to. So, one character is going to notice the beautiful colors of the sunset, and a different character is going to notice the thunder clouds creating this sunset. So, paying attention to what you're describing in the context of what would this character's priorities and personality, goals, motives, and conflicts choose to notice, either consciously or subconsciously, and making those choices in what you describe can help illustrate those deeper layers of the character for your reader. Second, I suggest that you use that character's vocabulary for the descriptions more than you use your own words and ways of looking at things. So, like with what they notice, how do they describe what they notice to themselves, or in the narration? Again, using that sunset as an example. One character might look at it and go, “Wow, that's pretty!” and a different character with a different personality and vocabulary would go, “Can you look at those layers of vermilion and baby pink and daffodil yellow? I love how they're mixing, and with the blues there, it goes into a little bit of a, oh, how would I describe that color? Like a lime green?” The different characters are going to have different vocabularies and different ways of choosing to describe visuals, auditory, whatever. So, again, using that can help illustrate without having to state anything those deeper layers of the character. Third, I suggest that you consider how an observation affects the protagonist in that moment, and affects how they move forward from it. As a somewhat extreme example of this, maybe your protagonist hears a beeping as they are passing a locker in a train station, and that sound cue forces them to react. Let's say they go to the train station management or security is like, “hey, I think there's a bomb in that locker”, and that is going to force the rest of the story, or at least the rest of that chapter, to go in a very different direction than if they hadn't heard that non-dialogue auditory cue. Or as a slightly less extreme example of that maybe, because the protagonist is admiring this rolling sunset and landscape beyond their city walls they accidentally end up witnessing a major plot point in the foreground. Stuff like that can be very helpful in making your choice to include a detail mean something to the story being told.

Agnes: I really love what you were saying about the vocabulary, because it got my wheels spinning, because I realized, you know what? You know, that doesn't just apply with sound and sights, it applies to the entire point of view. And so that just really, I really appreciated that you shared that particular specifically. But one of the things that I noticed about my biggest weaknesses is that the only time I use sound is in dialogue. I have to admit, as I was writing my own story, it didn't even cross my mind to describe, I know one of the suggestions you had said, that I actually just recently said, it was like, “How does it sound when it rubs against the ground? What is the ground like?”, and I realized I didn't really describe what the ground of this room was like. And so, I realize, as I've been going through after you looked through it, to add sound. And then, of course, we're going to talk about smell and, you know, all of that later. So now that I am adding sound into my story, are there any rules or other things I should consider as I add this element to my writing, or specific advice for adding more, even, visual descriptions?

Rebecca: Sure. Specific to sound, I suggest leaning more towards frequent, simple mentions of other sounds versus in-depth descriptions at any frequency. For example, let's say in your descriptions of a scene, you want to say that doves are cooing as your protagonist leaves their house. That's great. What I suggest you don't do is then also visually describe the doves, and decide what species of dove they are, unless this is very relevant, maybe your character is an ornithologist, and definitely do not try to describe the sound of the coos themselves. People know what a dove cooing sounds like. You don't need to describe the quality or the volume, or the measure of that sound. Leave it short and simple, and drop these in in a couple of words, a literal handful of words, 5 or less, here and there, rather than making a big deal out of including these sounds. Essentially, you want to get back to the plot as soon as you can. And then for sites, I suggest remembering that you will never be able to get readers to picture things exactly the same way that you do. It just cannot happen in this written medium. So, rather than trying to achieve that with your visual descriptions, I suggest picking a couple of the most important specifics you think really, really matter to the story and the world and the character and the reader, and let there be variety in these other specifics. On the other side of that, remember that you do need to give the reader visuals for characters and settings, and occasionally refresh those visuals. Almost no story can function as blank mannequins moving around flat, empty spaces. So, for both sights and sounds, I also suggest looking at what subtext a sound could carry to make it worth mentioning, or a visual could hint at something coming later. For example, a clicking floorboard could indicate that the house is old without you ever having to state it outright. The sound of frogs and crickets could tell the reader the chapter is opening outdoors at night somewhere with a wetter climate immediately. Describing that the house the protagonist is starting the story out in is built from Adobe tells the reader a lot about the climate, and probably region, and culture that this story is opening with, with one description of the color and texture of the walls. So, try to use these to mean something, not just to be there for the sake of them.

Agnes: So, I know, I love what you're sharing, and it kind of reminds me of the fact that, especially the draft that you read, which, this scene is now no longer there, But, you pointed out that I did not quite define where, what time frame mine was. And so you wanted, and in mine, the original draft started in the kitchen, it no longer is there, but that's where the original draft had started, and you asked me very specific questions, like, “I want to know is this medieval? Is this Renaissance? Is this…” she goes, so you ask me, “What type of pan was he using? What type of table? What type…” and it started to sort of make me realize, you know, oh, for one, I have to decide that, yes, I actually have to choose a time frame, and two is I have to describe that time frame. So, aside from giving cues, you know, not just on time frame and setting, what are some other things we should also consider with our descriptions, specifically at the beginning of our book, to really set the stage for the world that our readers are going to enjoy?

Rebecca: Great points there about using some cues to let the reader make other correct assumptions. There are a couple of other things that I would list here to make sure that you get to earlier on in the story, as establishing, like you were talking about. Like I had mentioned before, describe who your character is visually and physically, and how they sound. And for how they sound, this can mean externally, so how they choose to speak, and their vocabulary, but also, their internal sound, so if you're using internal thoughts, what is their self-talk like? Is it neutral? Is it very self-aggrandized and important? Is it very self, you know, shaming, self-deprecating? All of that can really help set the stage for the story. You can also put effort into setting your tone using your sensory descriptions. Your chosen opening setting or how you choose to describe any of the objects in this setting can go a long way towards your reader having a general vibe understanding of the story and allow you to communicate, “hey, this is going to be comedy, this is going to be tragedy, this is going to be drama”, whatever the tone you're going for is. And then, lastly, I suggest picking one visual or auditory thing to describe.

That you can attach a significant emotion, investment, or that kind of thing, to, for your protagonist. I feel like I phrased that poorly, so let me try phrasing that again. Find something that you can describe as a sight, sound, smell, touch, or taste that is going to bring up a strong emotional connection in your protagonist, a strong emotional reaction, or that you can show this person, this character, has a big investment in, in some way or another. What this can do for your story is go a long way towards connecting your character to their world, which will help your reader connect to the character and simply prove a good, you know, chunk of skill as a writer which will give your readers more confidence in you to continue reading.

Agnes: You know, I was thinking of questions to ask you, and I kept going back to

things for next week, because I feel like you did a really good job, specifically with scent, which is very interesting, in your book, tying it to emotion. And I think we'll talk about that next week. I'm going to have a question on that, hopefully I remember. But for someone like me, like, I am not an extremely visual person. I'm one of those that I'm a pretty good artist, but I have to be looking at something. I can't just do it from my imagination. So someone like me, who may struggle with using our senses as an immersive experience and are trying to refine that skill, what are some forgotten ways to describe things or give an immersive experience using sound and sight.

Rebecca: If I understand the question correctly, I have a short list of answers here, so. Number one would be, take an emotional telling moment, so they felt angry. They felt sad. Her face fell with sadness, things like that. And instead, make it a visual cue, or a hearable tone instead. So instead of, “he felt angry”, turn that into a visual of, “he frowned”. Or his fist clenched. Things like that. The second suggestion would be when the protagonist interacts with anything, describe it a little bit.

And I do mean a little bit. So instead of, “they pulled on their socks”, you could say, “they pulled on their bright red knit socks”. That's more immersive, that gives more detail. That speaks to dye colors and yarn technology, I don't know. Or instead of saying that they slammed a door, say they slammed the door, which then rattled from the impact in the awkward silence. Use more visuals, use more sounds in those moments where something is interacted with. And then my third suggestion here is, I suggest using a thesaurus to keep your descriptions refreshing and varied, but don't overuse your thesaurus. My rule of thumb for myself is if I didn't previously know the word that I find in this thesaurus, or if I have to look it up to make sure that I'm understanding the exact right meeting I will avoid using that word unless I am very much excited about how perfect that word is for that spot and that use.

Agnes: So, as I've pointed out before, I'm not a visually immersive reader. I'm more of an experiential, so I think of actually being there, but I don't actually have a visual world. So, oftentimes when I'm, as a reader, not as a writer, as a reader, when I'm reading something that's very visually immersive, such as Tolkien, let's say, I really struggle. And I know some of this is knowing your audience, but, are there any rules that we should know as writers that would help us to make sure that our descriptions are purposeful, and not distracting.

Rebecca: Sure. Using your descriptions to mean or imply something else, like I mentioned earlier, can be helpful, as it can be the concept of only using a couple of words of description more frequently rather than using whole paragraphs derailing from the plot, let's say, than is a couple of words here and there. Beyond that, like I talked about around scene stagnation back in episode 31, keeping a balance is important, and making your characters move around and interact with their setting more can be very helpful. If you go a full page without any visual descriptions, or all visual descriptions, then it's a good spot, and it's a good idea to add something else in there. If you have nothing but dialogue and descriptions of sound for a full page, you probably want to slim that down and add an action or two, or some visual or other sensory descriptions, that sort of thing.

Agnes: I love asking this question pretty much on every topic we've done, but what are some mistakes you often see, specifically pertaining from sound and sight that we should avoid using.

Rebecca: Top of the list is not visually describing your protagonist in the first page, ideally, the first paragraph, if you can do so gracefully, and at least with one solid visual trait to tie your readers over until they get more of that description. Second on my list of mistakes here would be overusing specific details. For example, I once edited a fantasy book where the author was pretty good about mentioning visual descriptions and colors of things except that the only color he ever mentioned was forest green. Everything that ever was assigned a color was dark green, and he thought it was hilarious when I pointed this out, and I ended up rereading it, and he had introduced more colors than that. But it's funny, the little things that your brain can just get stuck on for these descriptions, so, avoid overusing repetitive specifics. There was another book on this topic that I edited that heavily overuse the word ‘tone’. So it would say, oh, she said this, this, this, this, in a light tone, in a dark tone, in a happy tone, in a sad tone. Her tone was mysterious, tone, tone, tone, tone, tone. And it just starts feeling repetitive and uncreative, which you want to avoid. The last common mistake that I will mention here is when the author doesn't balance their large-scale visual descriptions with the small scale. Many authors are naturally inclined towards describing landscapes and architecture and sunset, or jewelry and freckles and, you know, the painting on the wall kind of thing, but many authors struggle to remember to do both, throughout.

Agnes: I think that is interesting, because I feel like, as writers, we tend to have tunnel vision, and we have our style, but we forget that not all of our readers are, they're going to. want more than what we necessarily, like, zero in on. You and I, changing topics, but you and I, we write very different genres. We have a very different target range, so the stuff that you write in yours would not go in mine, and vice versa. So, as far as me being middle grade, you being adult, should we handle visual cues or auditory cues differently based on our age group, audience, genre, etc.?

Rebecca: Yes, though those differences can be very subtle. They might be around what you choose to describe. How flowery or simply you word your descriptions. And if your descriptions should generally be short and surface level, or deep and full of detail. For answering this for yourself, I suggest going back to your comp titles, ideally, masterworks and or bestsellers in your niche and taking your cues from those as much as you can. Are they short? Are they long? Are they, simply put, are they very poetic? All of these kind of things can be informed, but I can't tell you necessarily what that is for each genre, so check that out for yourself.

Agnes: Something interesting about checking your comp titles, I have noticed that I can tell what book I was reading based on some of the chapters I was writing. My vocabulary increases during certain parts, and then I keep it more simple in other, and I'm like, “Oh, yeah, I was reading that book!”

Rebecca: It can absolutely influence, and part of editing is evening it all out to some level of consistency.

Agnes: Yeah, I need to make sure that my reader can't tell what book I was reading for each chapter.

Rebecca: Unless you want to do that intentionally, that could be fun, but it would take a lot of, “this is what I'm doing with this”.

Agnes: That would be so fun! Especially because I have some ideas, you know, like writing about people who actually journey into books, and that would be kind of funny. Anyway. Backtrack. So, wrapping up, I do have one last question. Are there certain types of scenes we should be more careful not using visual or auditory cues during, or maybe at least limit the use of them? Or ones where it's more important that we do use them.

Rebecca: Yes, there are different scenes with different requirements. Action scenes or other high-tension, high-intensity scenes should slim down the description heavily in favor of action and emotional revelation, that sort of thing, though still within the Goldilocks zone of their being some of everything, and it being spread out and balanced with each other. And then the first few scenes of a book, let's say, or any scene where the protagonist is exploring a new world or place in some way, is where you should be doing the most describing. Though again, only within the healthy spectrum of that. Not going overboard, and still spreading the different elements out into a well-mixed collection of dialogue and description and action.

Agnes: So, I lied, that was not my last question. I have one more question, and it's specifically more about, like, action scenes.

Rebecca: Sure.

Agnes: I do know that sometimes I have read a book, and it's very clear that you kind of get distracted during action scenes, and it slows down. What would you say, as far as action scenes, rules of thumb, of using sound and sight, or even other senses, if it's applicable?

Rebecca: Sure. So, I think that sight is definitely the most important in an action film, or film scene, and a big part of this is because when humans are in more of a fight-flight-fawn, you know, kind of situation, freeze situation, our senses sharpen, and for most humans the visual is where we are most likely to get earliest cues about how we need to respond and to what. So, when your character is in a high adrenaline moment, it makes sense that they are going to start noticing visual cues, and perhaps reacting more immediately and directly to those visual cues. So, when you are in a fight scene, let's say, it makes sense to mention, “oh, I see 5 people coming for me, I'm going to immediately start stringing my bow so that I can fight them off.

I see that there is a stand of trees over there. I am going to immediately start running for them so that I have some kind of cover”. A lot of it is about shortening the reaction time between observation and action. So, when you're in these high-energy scenes where you want there to be a big sense of action, you can use sights and sounds, again, don't go overboard describing them, but mention, “he heard a branch snap and he whirled around, and he saw someone trying to attack him from the back”, or, say he, you know, he sees a shift in movement, but the light through the trees and the shadow is making it hard to see that, but it still spikes his adrenaline.

Use these sights and sounds to create reaction and response, and that is how you use your senses to increase the impact of these high-energy scenes.

Agnes: So, what I think I hear from you is that, when we're writing descriptions, we make them as brief as possible, yet very reactive, and not spending time actually thinking about them, but more reacting to the visuals.

Rebecca: In high-intensity scenes, yes.

Agnes: Okay. Well, anyway, I think that concludes for this, and I'm really looking forward to smell, taste, and touch, because I barely used any of those in mine, so I'm very eager to talk about that. But anyway, thank you so much for your insight, it has helped me so much.

Rebecca: Entirely welcome. I love chatting about this stuff. Next week, like you just mentioned, we will get to those three other senses of touch, taste, and smell. For right now, as always, I would like to thank everyone for following along and listening to this series. We would very much appreciate it if you could like and subscribe to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Author's Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series. See you next week.

See you next time!

Tangible World Building: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 33

Tue, 19 Aug 2025 22:00:08 GMT

Tangible World Building: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript...

First, I want to talk about how the inclusion of something inconspicuous can need enormous justification rippling out from that, which you need to consider around you world building when self-editing. For example, lets say you mention a character pulling on socks and rushing out the door. On the easiest side, is knitting invented in your world? How widespread, accessible, or affordable are those supplies, tools, knowledge, and the resulting products? On the worse side, non-knit socks, tights, or stockings without garters require elastic, which requires synthetic textile production, which requires fossil byproduct mining, which implies that plastic should also be in common use in that world. How are you answering and considering all of those questions in your world building, and what ripple affects of those answers need to realistically impact other aspects? Many readers won’t care about those things, but many will.

Second, I got rather impressively sidetracked setting up to give examples of world building statements in this episode, like I suggest doing for characters statements, so let me give some examples here:

"My world is pessimistic, but with a high quality of life which frustrates my protagonist when they really engage with it."

"This world is highly reactive but deeply resistant to systemic or sustainable change."

The world for this series loves order and stability, and is willing to sacrifice anything and everything except _ to maintain it."

Hope that's helpful within the context of the episode!

Third, here are direct links to the other episodes in this series which I reference or recommend in this episode:

Episode 29: Character Consistency, Depth, & Uniqueness

Episode 31: Avoiding Scene Stagnation

Episode 32: Intangible World Building

Happy editing!

Episode 33 Overview:

Tangible World Building

"Are my TANGIBLE world-building details impacting my arena and avatars? Enough to justify active inclusion, instead of leaving them to subtext? Are my geography, clothing, food, travel, architecture, and other tangible world building choices all working well together?"

In this episode of our podcast for fantasy authors , we dive into self-editing strategies for writers focused on clothing in fiction , geography, weather, and architecture—critical yet often overlooked elements of story world development . Developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell shares insights on using worldbuilding details to actively shape character actions and scene direction, while guest Addie Dulac brings real-world examples from her historical romance series. Learn how integrating setting and story can heighten immersion, reflect theme, and reinforce tone—especially when discomfort or inconvenience is allowed to push the plot forward.

Developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell ] is joined by historical romance author Addie DuLac, whose richly detailed Troublemakers trilogy serves as a powerful example of tangible world building done right. Together, they discuss how to make your settings affect plot, how to integrate world details with character moments, and why inconvenience can be your best plotting tool.

In episode 33, they wrap up the world building duology of episodes with an in-depth look at how weather, wardrobe, animals, laws, and more can create tension, shape tone, and drive story arcs in both fantasy and historical fiction.

In this episode:

· How to deepen immersion through concrete setting details

· What tangible elements are most often underused

· Why every setting should influence character action and emotion

· How to avoid world building for convenience’s sake

· Techniques for using weather, clothing, and transportation to steer the plot

Resources:
Author’s Alcove Membership: authorsalcove.com
Read Addy DuLac’s books here: www.addydulacauthor.net

Fantasy Book Giveaway: authorsalcove.org

See you next week for episode 34: Sensory Immersion—Sight & Sound!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 33 Transcript:

Tangible World Building

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing podcast. This episode 33 of the weekly story savvy series where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great, as a published author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to.

My usual cohost, Agnes and I have covered a bunch in this year so far, and last week Addy and I went over the aspect of intangible world building to check in our stories.

Today we are going to finish out this topic by talking about tangible world building. By the end of this episode, you’ll all hopefully feel confident identifying where you might want to change or tweak parts of your tangible world building and have a good idea of how to do so intentionally and creatively.

Joining me to ask all the questions is my friend, former critique partner, and author of One Season with the Duke, which I had a great time critiquing and giving feedback on, and The Troublemakers Trilogy, the fourth book of, sorry, the third book of which is coming out in September, so just next month. Welcome Addy DuLac. Hello!

Addy DuLac: Hello!

Rebecca: Why don’t you tell us a little about you and your writing, whatever you feel like mentioning, before we dive in with questions here?

Addy : A little about me, in case you were unaware, I’m Addy DuLac. I primarily write interracial historical romance. I’ve released three books so far, between my two publishers. My first novel with entangled was the aforementioned One Season with the Duke. It won three Emma awards for best novel, best debut, and best interracial romance.

Rebecca: Congratulations!

Addy: Thank you! That was a weird experience, but I was excited about it. My first trilogy, called The Troublemakers, is being released with Dragonblade publishing. It really features three heroes from diverse backgrounds. One is Chinese, one is South Asian, and the third is from the Caribbean, and the equally rebellious male leads are taking on racial, familial, and social tensions while they fight for their right to love, live, and thrive in Victorian England. Not an easy task. I love drama, I love angst and steam, when I'm writing and when I'm reading. My favorite primary tropes are arranged marriage, marriage of convenience, and adversaries/enemies to lovers. I also like mixing these things. There's nothing better to me than a marriage of convenience with enemies to lovers. Like, that is my cat-nip, that’s perfect.

Rebecca: Love it!

Addy : I won’t take it back! So, moving swiftly on, I write in third person dual, mainly. Sometimes I dabble with triple POV, and mostly because it’s my favorite to read and, therefore, to write. My fourth novel, the last in my Troublemakers Trilogy, is due for release in September, as Rebecca stated. It is called Miss Hawthorne’s Unlikely Husband and it follows Miss Elodia Hawthorne, and the challenges she takes on to marry the man she has loved since she was 15 years old. So, look out for that!

Rebecca: I can’t wait!

Addy: So, last week we went through intangible world building. Since I asked you last week to define intangible world building, could you also define tangible world building?

Rebecca: Sure, so tangible is anything that you can touch, essentially. Very, very basic there, so that can be the clothing, which is my niche so I tend to over-emphasize that a little bit, but it can really make a big difference in how the characters move through their world and present themselves, and all that kind of thing. Tangible world building is also horses and transportation, geography and maps, buildings and architecture, money and other means of exchange, food and drink, means of communication, so reading and writing, if they have telegram systems, anything like that, and so, so many other aspects like that.

Laws, government and religious rules are sort of this murky gray area between tangible and intangible, so I’ll just mention that again here since I think I only mentioned the religious aspects last week.

Addy: Yea, in book one of The Troublemakers, laws became very tricky for me because I had a sort of a Gretna Green escape/elopement situation and unbeknownst to a good amount of most people when they’re reading historical romance, they read it in Regency where you could just pop over to Gretna Green and then come back, but because I decided to be difficult, I did it in Victorian England and apparently in—well not apparently but I think it was like 1839, no 1849 or ‘59, its later on, I think its ‘59—they changed the law, so that like if you went to Gretna Green but you didn’t—if you went to Gretna Green had to stay in Scotland and be a resident of Scotland for, I think, two to three weeks before your marriage will be considered a real thing, so you couldn’t just pop over anymore.

Rebecca: That still doesn’t seem very long, but yeah that’s a great example of world building that’s relevant and you need to pay attention.

Addy: It’s not that long but when you’re trying to, yeah, because you think that like, let’s say if you run away to Gretna Green with your boyfriend, right? Three weeks, it’s not a long period of time but it’s a long period of time for you to avoid detection from your parents because even if your marriage—even if you consummate your marriage, it is not considered legally binding unless you’ve been there for two to three weeks, which means that your parents could still drag you back we can still be annulled, you can still have problems. And now you’re deflowered on top of it, so now it’s like a whole situation, right? But it’s like, before, as long as you were knocked up you were good, like as long as, you know? So, that’s one of those situations where you just, like, know what those law are at the time because it could screw up your whole plot, you know. Case and point.

So, is there a reason you felt like it was important to cover intangible world building before tangible world building? I feel like when most people think about world building, they think of either of those together or just the tangible side, I think.

Rebecca : Yeah, and that’s largely the reason. I basically think that it’s better to deal with the harder, newer, perhaps more cognitive-dissonance-expanding-your-brain-functioning aspects first, and especially since those are going to have the bigger impact. So, if you’re looking at these intangibles and religion and mindset and belief and all of these kind of things, that’s going to take more effort, so getting the hard stuff out of the way, and then then doing the nice quick and relatively easy aspects of the tangible tends to work better for the authors that I’ve helped through this process.

And then related to that, it’s also better to change what intangible things you need to before you polish off the tangible. Because it’s more likely that intangible changes, or needed changes, are going to have a big effect and change the tangible than the other way around. If you decide that you need to set your story in a place that has completely different mindset or set of laws, like we were just talking about, that’s a big change. And if you’ve already put in the work of polishing the tangible world building for the wrong time in place, you’ve wasted that time. So, making that decision on the intangibles first is basically all-around the smarter way to go, and then once you’ve locked that in and done those edits, then going in and polishing those tangible aspects.

Addy: So how can we strike a balance in present our tangible world building between giving enough detail that readers can feel immersed but not so much that they get bored and distracted?

Rebecca: As always, like I mentioned in the last episode, make sure that you mention things (and ideally show them as the mention) just in time rather than just in case. So, mention it in the moment where the reader needs to know it, where it becomes really, really important to know instead of five chapters earlier just in case they need to know it later, just in case they’ll remember it. Just in time, not just in case, every single time.

It’s also just important to remember what I was talking about earlier—I think it was two episodes ago with scene stagnation. Look at those markers. Look at those proportions that we talked about there, and make sure that on a scene-level basis, on a page-by-page basis, you’re not falling into either dialogue stagnation, description stagnation, or just everything happening with no description or dialogue stagnation. That’s really, really what we’re watching for here.

If you have a really slow-paced scene where you’re worried about that balance being off between your tangible world building and other things you can also just look at adding more things that are happening on the surface while you’re building that background stuff in the background. The really, really important word there is happening.

Addy : What if, in self-editing, we realize we need to go back to the drawing board in designing or clarifying the tangible world of our story? What are some questions listeners can ask themselves as they explore their worlds in more depth?

Rebecca : Sure, so the same as before, really, but for this I suggest you start with, what do you need your world to do, if your world building was perfect what service would it be doing, what purpose would it have, what would it be doing? And then ask yourself: how could your world building choices better tie into your theme, and your stakes, and your genre and all of these things that I’ve talked about in previous episodes? Once you’ve asked yourself those two questions and come up with answers that you’re satisfied with, then go through that other list that I mentioned and try to match that ideal before applying the changes that you decide you need.

Addy : So how can I make sure that I have the right setting choices for the whole world and each for each individual book?

Rebecca: The main question here is, “does it impact the scene in anyway” (to start with), and in a good way, and then in a meaningful way.

So, when you’re checking this just look at if it is giving you more to work with. Is your tangible setting a choice giving you more to do, more to explore, more to overcome, things like that?

You can also check if it creates or furthers goals, motives or conflicts. If your setting choices, let’s say, help your character get closer to their goal, or reminds them of their goal, or brings up old motivations that they’re trying to get away from, or the setting itself creates conflict, that’s a good indicator that it’s the right choice.

Does the setting choice complicate things? This is very much connected to that idea of conflict.

Does it create hurdles that need to be overcome?

And then lastly on my little list of questions to ask yourself here is, “does it add to the tone or immersion?” And sometimes this choice looks like picking a new setting that you haven’t used before instead of reusing an old one. Or picking a setting that is more tonally on point for that moment. So, for example, instead of having your lovers have their breakup seen at home, because you have already done scenes there, have them do it at a theater as everyone’s leaving at the end of the play. Those are going to really impact the tone of the argument because of the witnesses and because of the setting, and it is going to impact the immersion because having it happen in a much more involved setting is going to get your reader more pulled into the experience of that scene.

Addy: What are some of the most forgotten aspects of tangible world building in your opinion?

Rebecca: I would say, my one answer here, honestly, that applies to a bunch of different stuff is that authors forget that you can use all of the aspects of tangible world building, not just include them.

So instead of just mentioning that horses are used, use that. Have a horse buck and the protagonist falls off and then they have to walk home because the horse ran off. Have the horse step on a caltrop and so the carriage has to pull over and they can’t go further. Have a silly moment where horse gas absolutely interrupts a flirtatious or otherwise serious moment.

Use these tangible things. And like, for clothing, don't just mention that she’s wearing a ball gown, have her get stuck trying to get out of a carriage. Have the train get muddy, and this brings her social shame.

All of these different aspects of tangible world building can just be included, but it’s going to mean so much more and be so much more memorable and immersive if you use them.

Addy : Is that sort of like—I guess when you're setting a scene, you are setting a scene, but it’s sort of showing not telling sort of situation? Because it seems like that’s the difference, instead of saying, “Hey we have horses here”, it's, like, great. But like you could sort of interweave (is the conjugation? I can’t spell.) You can thread them into it and then they know that they are there, rather than just being like “we use horses as a means of transportation.” It’s like, what if everybody’s using the horses? Right?

Rebecca : So, there’s overlap there. And yes, I highly recommend always showing rather than telling, especially round world building.

But I mean here is specifically: there’s a branch in two different directions a story could go. One in which this tangible world building thing doesn’t exist, and one in which it does. So when your protagonist goes to the ball and she’s in her big hoop skirts, there’s one version of that scene in which she doesn’t step in the mud puddle and get her dress muddy and the reactions that she gets, the way that she feels about her own confidence, is very different than when she does step in that mud puddle and her beautiful silk dress that she just spent pretty much all of her money on gets muddy and stained, and so she then spends the whole ball in this very different direction.

So, when I talk about using these, what I mean is use them in a way that forces that story to branch from where it otherwise would have gone. Instead of just having the horses pulling the cart so the protagonist gets home on time and goes to bed and things go from there, instead the horse steps on a big rock and gets lame, and the cart pulls, over and they’re delayed by several hours while they get the stone out and calm down the horse, and all of this kind of stuff. So when she gets home, her parents are angry and think that she was off with a guy which is why she’s late and the story has a different direction.

So, when I’m talking about using things and making matters those little branching moments. Don’t just show them, show them changing how the story moves forward at some scale.

Addy: So, it’s like if, like sliding doors kind of, like she would normally walk home but her friend offers her a carriage so she’s able to take the carriage home, and now she catches her husband in an affair, kind of situation.

Rebecca: Yep!

Addy: There ya go.

Rebecca: I’m glad you asked that.

Addy: What are some of the biggest mistakes that you see authors do when building their world, especially in historical fantasy?

Rebecca : First of all, they don’t care enough about that aspect. I’ve read quite a few books where the author was very character-centric or plot-centric and they very much let the world building happen as an accidental afterthought to the plot or the characters.

As an author this is an important aspect to think about especially in self-editing. It’s fine if you don’t think about it too much in the planning or the drafting but there’s a reason we’re doing two whole episodes on it in this series. You need to give it thought because it really does have an impact and it really does affect how the reader experiences the book, but then more than that, remember the book, and feels a part of that world like we talked about in the last episode in fandoms. World building has a lot to do with how people become fans and you want fans after the fact.

Another common mistake that I’ll see is that they never consider the intangible repercussions of the tangible aspects. At the highest scale this can be they pick the 1860s because they love hoop skirts—and I get it, I do too—but they don’t then consider the social ramifications, cultural ramifications, the rights and rules and laws of that decade in whatever part of the world they decide to place the story.

When you make a tangible choice, let’s say such as your world having minted coinage to purchase things with, that has intangible repercussions about how people view, in this example, labor, and exchange, and wealth, and legacy. All of these kinds of things. You need to consider the repercussions.

And then the third most common mistake that I will see is that they simply reach for convenience too often. I totally get not wanting to dwell on the nastier aspects of historical settings, or modern ones for that matter. You really almost never need to describe a character using the bathroom, but if it becomes unavoidably relevant, don’t throw away the general or specific world building that you’ve done in the name of convenience, either for you as the author or for your protagonist. When things aren’t convenient that’s what’s interesting to read in novels. So, if your character needs to get from point A to point B and you live in a world where horses are the best transportation, they need to take a horse. You can’t magically invent trains in your world for this one transportation. So, when you hit a snag in your world building and you’re tempted to reach for—or you noticed that you did this in drafting—you’re tempted to reach for convenience, consider not doing that. Consider letting it be more accurate—historically accurate—and show that darker side, show that inconvenience, whatever that happens to be.

Addy: That’s kind of like what you were saying, by using the inconvenience to shape the plot, right?

Rebecca: Yeah.

Addy: How can we make sure that our world building is logical and consistent throughout?

Rebecca: I touched on this a little bit in the last episode, and it really comes down to: make those “world statements” like your world is a character.

Make statements like “OK its set in this rough time period and this location”—and again this applies to modern and I’m talking about a lot in the historical and fantasy context, but even if you’re writing contemporary, this can matter—and make statements like—oh and I also wanted to mention, this can apply to simply to protagonist 's interpretation of the world. So, through your protagonist's world view the world can be a dark and dangerous place or it can be a bright and beautiful place full of opportunity. Make those statements about how your world exist objectively, but it can also be really helpful to make statements about how your protagonist use it objectively [correction: subjectively]—sorry, no, other way around, but anyway, you get the point. So, it’s not just about how it is, but also how it is perceived.

So beyond making those statements and going back to them, referring to them, putting them in your Series Bible, knowing where to find them, I also suggest that as you’re reading through your book, if you see something that you wrote in drafting and you’re like, “oh that counts as world building”, copy and paste that into your Series Bible. This doesn’t have to always be you coming up with ideas and then going in and applying them. You can see what you already did or what you even subconsciously did without realizing, but the point is you need to collect them so that you can use it as a reference point. So, when you’re reading through, collect those and start building out that Series Bible more.

Addy : I know we need to wrap up, but I have one more question for you. Are there any specific aspects of tangible world building, such as clothing or horses—that seems to be the consistent thing which I know are your specialties—which you’d suggest authors watch for in self-editing? Or that you have specific advice on?

Rebecca : So many different topics!

So, when I am editing, this often comes down to what that individual author needs. I don’t have a standardized template of any kind when I’m doing developmental edits because every story is very different and every story has very different needs.

So, just off the top of my head some of those have been one person really needed help with geography, and I ended up talking through (it with) them after the fact in our debrief and emails just figuring out OK what does the city look like? Cause I know there’s a harbor and I know there’s a cliff that overlooks it but the two don’t seem to line up in any kind of logical way from what you described.

Clothing is a common one, but again, that’s one of my specialties and I’ll have—particularly historical—writers contract me just to do the fact checking on the clothing. So, for the clothing I recommend either staying very vague, so just say “a dress and an under dress,” or “a shirt and trousers,” or do your research and use the right terms. Make sure that you’re using the right layers, the right structure. I think it was the last episode we were talking about how corsets are really important as an exoskeleton to hang all of those heavy skirts on.

Addy: They are a foundational garment, they are not just there to, yeah.

Rebecca: Yeah, It's not always just fashion. A lot if it has to do with a system of clothing, for functionality and ‘this piece only exist because this other one is always worn’ kind of thing. So do a little bit of research if you’re writing historical and like talking about clothing, hire an expert, it doesn’t have to be me, but please have someone check it to make sure that it’s right.

Horses are a really common one. I’m in a lot of different writer and reader groups and horses is probably the topic that I talked about the most as far as getting that world building right. And I will also say here that if you decide to come up with a fantasy version of horses which I see regularly in high fantasy, you still need to make similar decisions about, what is—let’s say giant moose that you can ride—what is their psychology like, what is that training process? Can you ride them? Can they only pull carts? What does that harness look like? Do you need to steer the horns? Is it a bit in the mouth? Think about these things.

Yeah. Pretty much any topic I can have specific recommendations about so if anyone listening to this has a specific topic in the tangible world building that they want advice on, email me my email is all over my website you can find that that, and that might be anything from cities versus towns versus farms and the considerations about that. It could be dates and telling time, it could be how people communicate when they’re not in person.

The last thing that I really, really, REALLY want to talk about here is weather. Weather is a big intangible part of the world building that I don’t think it’s used enough. And we talked about this a minute ago, and I’m so glad you had me define that further but use the weather. Use a bright sunny day to force the protagonist to find shade or to survive in the desert a shorter amount of time. Use a storm to force your protagonist to seek shelter, to step in a mud puddle, to need to get a carriage instead of riding their horse. Use your weather choices. It’s amazing the difference that a foggy day and a clear day can have on the tone of the scene and how it goes and how it affects the protagonist mindset and their choices, and all that kind of stuff, so please don’t forget weather as part of your tangible world building.

Addy: Oh yeah, because every time I think of weather I think if forced proximity. Like, you want to go further but I guess you’re going to just be stuck with your crush under this tree because there’s a rainstorm. And if the storm gets particularly bad you may need to stop by the woodcutters or groundsman’s cottage, and just hang out there for a bit, and hope that nobody notices and you don't have to have a marriage of convenience, because, you know? The amount of times in like historical romances absolutely have just like, “weather.” It's like, “what? Oh, there’s a snow storm, you’re about to fuck three days straight. Three.” Because you could hold out for the first half of the first day, and after that it's to the races, right?

Rebecca: It could affect your stakes, like maybe you get stuck out in that blizzard, and you're on the cusp of death and that woodsman comes and rescues you and you have to spend a week recovering.

Addy: What are you going to do? He can’t just take you home, you're dying! But I also think of horses going, like when you're on a journey and you're going off and I keep thinking if Lisa Kleypas’ The Devil in Winter, where you had that issue, I don't know if you ever read that one, but it's a book where in the beginning you have the heiress escaping with this scoundrel that she specifically sort of like hunted down and conscripted to marry her because she’s trying to escape her family, and she—I think it’s one or two chapters of the journey from London to Gretna Green, and she’s very careful about, “what is the reality of a journey to Gretna Green? What does it feel like?” And you get into weather, it's cold. It's getting colder and colder the further north you go. These horses have to stop every 30 miles to switch out. What does that feel like? These carriages are not—they are the best carriages that money can buy, but it’s still a damn carriage. And after 12 hours of bouncing around and stopping in the middle of the night and all kinds of stuff you’re tired, you’re hungry, you’re achy, you’re cold, you’re running out of all this stuff. And you can’t fall asleep yet because when you get to Gretna Green you need to get married immediately. And it’s just like the wear that it has on the characters, and you're—it makes you really think about if you tried to escape to Gretna Green, like how badly do you need to marry this person? Because this is about to be the most uncomfortable night of your damn life. And that’s your best-case scenario. Right? Even with, he’s a viscount, he’s the son of a Duke, so the stuff that he has at his disposal is the best of the best. Like he has everything. And the best of the best leaves you ragged. Okay?

Rebecca: Yeah, because that is all tangible world building, and when it's historical you have really clear bumpers on how uncomfortable, and unpleasant, and wet, and cold, and chafing you're going to be.

Addy: But if you think about the character, but also as you’re doing that it forces, or it allows you, to build a certain sense of emotional closeness or physical closeness between your two characters because now, even though they started off and she was like, “get in here! Dance beggar boy”, now it's like “no, I need you to take care of me”. And he’s like “I know, I’m here. I’m also tired”, that kind of situation, like that kind of stuff. No wonder! It helps to set the stage of the person you're dealing with as well. It's good for character development and it's good stuff! Okay! This has been so much fun. Yeah!

Rebecca: Glad to hear. I love chatting with you, and I love your clarifying questions, and examples, and everything like that. Again, thank you so much for stepping in as a guest-host on this show. I really appreciate it.

Addy : No problem!

Rebecca: Next week I will be getting into the first of two episodes on sensory immersion, so, related, starting with sights and sounds.

For now, a huge thank you to everyone who follows along with the series. If you haven’t subscribed yet, please do. We would really appreciate that. Both the Hart Bound editing podcast and Author’s Alcove podcast. You can find lots more content beyond this joint series in both of those places.

And then lastly, I highly encourage you all to go check out Addy DuLac’s awesome interracial historical romance novels at addydulacauthor.net, that is addydulacauthor.net and to follow her on Facebook, TikTok and Instagram at AddyDuLac_Author, and definitely keep an eye out for her next book in September.

Addy: Yay!

See you next time!

Intangible World Building: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 32

Tue, 12 Aug 2025 22:00:01 GMT

Intangible World Building: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript...

I reference several other episodes in this series during the course of this episode, so I'm going to list and link theme here (in the order in which they come up in this episode) for your convenience.

Episode 27: Magic Systems

Episode 1: Starting with Target Audience

Episode 12: Story Research for Fantasy

Episode 19: Plot holes & Character Inconsistencies

Episode 29: Character Consistency, Depth, & Uniqueness

Happy editing!

Episode 32 Overview:

Intangible World Building

"Are my intangible world-building details impacting the arena and avatars? Enough to justify active inclusion, instead of leaving them to subtext? Are my name, expletives, music, religion, cultural, and societal, and other intangible world building choices all working well together?"

In this podcast for fantasy authors , we continue discussing self-editing strategies for writers . This week, we discuss intangible story world development , including writing believable fantasy worlds, and writing societal norms in fiction. In Episode 32, Rebecca answers many questions surrounding intangible world building aspects such as culture, religion, etc.

Developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and guest co-host Addy DuLac, who is standing in for Agnes Wolfe of Authors’ Alcove, walk through how to self-edit your manuscript for intangible world building aspects. Addy DuLac writes interracial historical romance with a bold mix of humor, high emotion, and just the right amount of spice in books like One Season with the Duke and the Troublemakers Trilogy .

Whether you’re polishing a second draft or outlining your fantasy series, this episode gives you clear tools to define what your intangible world building features are, where to include them, and how to make your fictional world feel real—without the dreaded info dump.

In this episode:

What counts as intangible world building (and why it matters)
How beliefs, language, religion, and social norms shape story choices
Why some accurate details still “feel wrong” to readers
Tips for maintaining tone through names, and cultural consistency
When to explain, when to trust the reader, and when to revise

Recommended Resources:
Au t hor’s Alcove Membership: authorsalcove.com

Read Addy DuLac’s books here: https://www.addydulacauthor.net/

See you next week for episode 33: Tangible World Building!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 32 Transcript:

Intangible World Building

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 32 of the Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as a published author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you’ve wanted to. My usual co-host, Agnes, and I have covered a bunch in this series so far, and last week Addy and I went over avoiding scene stagnation by adding variety and interest.

Today we’re going to take a look at intangible world building in self-editing. By the end of this episode, you’ll hopefully feel confident in what the intangible aspects of world building are, know how to check and use them, and have a solid idea of where you may need to tweak those aspects in your own self-editing.

Joining me to ask all of these questions is my friend and the author of One Season with the Duke and the Troublemakers Trilogy, Addy DuLac. Welcome!

Addy: Thank you!

Rebecca: Why don’t you tell us a little bit about you and your writing, whatever you feel like mentioning, before we dive in with our questions here?

Addy Dulac: Hello! A little bit about me in case you’re unaware. Of course, I’m Addy Dulac.

I primarily write interracial historical romance, right now set in Victorian England. I’ve released three books between my two publishers. My first novel with Entangled was One Season with the Duke—the aforementioned—and it won three EMMA Awards for Best Novel, Best Debut, and Best Interracial Romance.

Rebecca: *claps*

Addy: Yay! Thank you, thank you.

My first trilogy, called The Troublemakers, is currently being released—it is currently still being released, but with Dragonblade Publishing. It features three heroines from diverse backgrounds and their equally rebellious male leads, taking on racial, familial, and social tensions while they fight for their right to love, live, and thrive in Victorian England. I love drama, angst, and steam. My favorite primary tropes are arranged marriage, marriage of convenience, and adversaries/enemies-to-lovers—sometimes they’re enemies, and sometimes they just don’t like each other. And that’s enough! It doesn’t always need to be, you know, a travesty.

I tend to write in third-person dual or sometimes triple POV. Mostly because it’s my favorite to read or write. No shade to anybody, but I’m not a big fan of first-person. It makes me crazy.

But I do—I think it’s the same with third person. Third person deep POV is the best, but third person can be boring. And it’s the same thing with first person, right? Sometimes you read first person—I’ve read first person despite my lack of interest, and be like “this is amazing! And I’ve read the book in one day and it was amazing. And then there are other times…

Rebecca: To each their own. Absolutely.

Addy: Right! And then I’ve also read first person where—even with first person, sometimes it grabs me and pulls me in, and then for others it’s like: “I think you didn’t—I don’t think you know how this is supposed to work.” Right? Like, sort of thing, so… I think sometimes it's up to the skill of the author, and sometimes it's just people are weird, like me.

So, my fourth novel, and the last in The Troublemakers Trilogy, is due for release in September. It’s called Ms. Hawthorne’s Unlikely Husband, and it follows Ms. Elodia Hawthorne and the challenges she faces in trying to marry the man she’s loved since she was fifteen years old. So, fun stuff.

Rebecca: I’m excited for that.

Addy: Yeah, yeah, it's good times. She's the… She's the daughter of a Viscount. And you've met her in Book 1, and essentially, he's very rich, but he is essentially a merchant. He owns his family. He has a lot of, like, um… what do they call it? Intergenerational wealth. Because his family, they've owned these mercantile mills for a while. So, he has a lot of money, but he’s still a merchant, so he's not quite Charles Bingley yet. So, there's some questions about that, and like, you know, whether they should be getting married.

Rebcca: And it sounds like some fun, you know, spaces to explore in the novel.

Addy: Oh yeah, there's a lot of hijacks going on, but that was… but yeah, but that's book 3. So. So, fun times!

Okie dokie. Well, let's get into our questions. Intangible world building seems like a bit of an enigma of a topic, and I can think of a bunch of different things that could mean. Let’s first define what intangible world building is. What are we actually talking about here?

Rebecca: So, intangible world building is any world building that has nothing to do with the tangible aspects like geography, buildings, clothing, things like that. So magic systems, like I talked about back in episode 27, could count as intangible world building, but what we’re talking about in this episode applies to all genres.

Just to list some of the things that fall under this category, we’re looking at:

· Cultural markers

· Name choices for characters, places and objects

· What curses, expletives, and exclamations the people in your story use

· Music, writing, and communication

· Social considerations

· Religion

· And everything like that.

Anything that’s more about how characters perceive and experience the world than the physical surroundings.

Addy: So, it sounds like all of this is centered around the internal aspects of the character and how they perceive or think about things. Are there any ways in which we need to be cautious in creating these elements? Any ways we might turn a reader off from the story in ways that we may be blind to, since these things are often heavily influenced by our own worldview as a writer and the lens we see our own work through?

Rebecca: Yes, there is some room for caution there. But again—know your audience, what they are like, what they like, and own that. I’ve talked about this in so many different episodes. I personally have read books with what I thought was jarringly hip or trendy intangible world building—references characters were making that didn’t match the physical setting. But the author knew their audience, and my research into their niche backed them up on that.

Historical, high fantasy, and writing about a culture you’ve never lived in are, I feel, where you need to be the most careful. Especially for the latter—writing about cultures you’ve never experienced—I’d refer listeners back to episode 12. I think that was one of the episodes with a guest host. We covered sensitivity checks, using sensitivity readers, things like that.

But for historical and high fantasy, it’s really about making sure you have the right guardrails. If you know you’re writing Victorian romance, referencing something like “give me a call” doesn’t make a lot of sense unless you’re late Victorian. And talking about an app? Wildly inappropriate. If you’re writing medieval and say a conversation went “off the tracks”—they haven’t invented trains yet!

Addy: Right. Exactly.

Rebecca: So, knowing what your guardrails are for the intangible—how people think about things, the vocabulary they use, the way they view gender, sexuality, ethnicity, religion, and even morality—all of that is incredibly important.

Addy: And also, with respect to knowing your audience—specifically in historical romance—it’s one of those things where readers say they want accuracy, but they don’t want too much accuracy. Like, they don’t want to deal with the reality of chamber pots in Regency England.

Rebecca: Yes. And even when you present something accurately, it can sound wrong because your reader knows less about history than you do. I encourage everyone to Google “The Tiffany Problem.”

Addy: I was about to bring that up! For anyone not familiar, the Tiffany Problem is when people think a name like Tiffany is modern. But the name Tiffany has actually been used since the Middle Ages.

Rebecca: Right, early Middle Ages. So it's been around a long time. But people assume it’s anachronistic just because it sounds modern. Another example—sometimes people get tripped up over phrases or nicknames. Like, I’ve had people comment on a character using “babe” or “baby” and say it sounds modern. But it’s not!

Addy: Yeah, it's really not.

Rebecca: It can also just be a case of people putting their own experience of modern life onto these historical characters. One of the best examples I have of that is corset-wearing in the Victorian era. In reality, women were wearing corsets since they were toddlers. And they weren’t tight-lacing or rearranging their organs—for the most part. But corsets were a very necessary exoskeleton.

As someone who has done Victorian reenactment—those dresses, those hoop skirts, those heavy layers of petticoats will dig into your hips so badly unless you’re wearing a boned corset.

Addy: Yeah.

Rebecca: So, one of the things I often see in historical romance is these characters being desperate to not wear a corset. And it’s totally inaccurate. In reality, women wore corsets like modern women wear underwear. But every reader thinks it’s true that they hated it because so many other authors have portrayed it that way.

Addy: And it’s also about waist training, right? A corset is like a bra. I actually think that’s a perfectly good comparison. The first few times you put one on, it’s not comfortable. It’s annoying. And especially if you're wearing an ill-fitting bra, it can be the bane of your existence. But if you're used to wearing them—and especially if your proportions are like mine—it can get really uncomfortable if you're not wearing one.

Especially if I’m trying to do any kind of activity—it can be almost painful. So it’s like, no, no, no, this sucker needs to come with me. And if it’s uncomfortable, maybe it’s just badly fitted. Maybe you need a different kind. Maybe the wire broke. But that doesn’t mean you throw them out entirely. You adjust.

Rebecca: That’s such a great example. That’s tangible world building, but the mindsets around it—how people feel about the item—is where the intangible comes in. That mindset of “Do I want to wear this corset or not?” impacts how the character dresses, how they react if they’re seen without it, and how comfortable they feel moving through the world. That’s the part we’re encouraging writers to think about here.

Addy: Yeah, like imagine a character who sneaks out without wearing one and thinks she’ll be more comfortable—but ends up feeling weirdly exposed and uncomfortable all day. That moment of realizing, “Ugh, I wish I’d worn the stupid thing,” is a perfect character insight.

Rebecca: So, especially in fantasy—which is my genre—you really need to introduce every aspect because readers can’t always default to something. Versus historical fiction, where a lot can be taken for granted. You still need to establish location, social standing, and tech level, but you don’t have to explain every single thing the way you do in fantasy.

So, my answer to your question—how to tell if something is worth including—is: ask yourself if this specific aspect steers the story at any point. Does it give the protagonist an opportunity they wouldn’t have otherwise had? Does it illuminate something important about their mindset, personality, fears, or goals?

And then ask: is the job that this world building element is doing worth the words you’re spending on it? If it is, great—keep it. If not, maybe it should stay as subtext or be trimmed down.

Addy: Yeah. So I know this series is geared toward fantasy, but this definitely overlaps with historical fiction too. For fantasy writers, how do you suggest keeping track of all these intangible world building decisions so they stay consistent across a book or series? And if someone picks, like, a Renaissance-ish default setting, do all of their intangibles have to match that too?

Rebecca: Okay, so first—how to keep track. I recommend using a series bible. Even for standalone books. Just a simple document where you jot down decisions: what the religion is like, what rights different people have, common greetings, taboos, etc. That way, when you're editing and you suddenly think, “Wait, what did I say about marriage laws?” you have a quick reference.

Another tool: choose a guiding theme or set of bumpers. For example, in my books, I have a modern-ish technology level but altered historical events, and all magic must come through either auras or demons. If a new idea doesn’t fit that, I find another way to write it. Guardrails like that help you stay consistent.

Also: re-read your manuscript multiple times. That’s not a groundbreaking tip, but it’s worth saying. And even then—you’ll probably miss something. That’s okay. There are traditionally published books with professional editors that still have world building inconsistencies. It happens.

Addy: So, going back to my other question—what if you pick a real-world historical backdrop for your fantasy world? Do all your intangible elements have to line up?

Rebecca: The short answer is no. You just need to know when you're deviating and do it intentionally.

Let’s say you pick a Renaissance Italy backdrop but want to include a 21st-century view on gender equality and a more medieval religious mindset. That’s fine! But you want to introduce those three mismatched elements early and explain why they coexist. Help your reader understand the logic of your world.

Addy: Yeah, it’s sort of like—okay, not as in-depth as that—but I was in an author group once, and we were talking about things that feel anachronistic. Like when a butler is doing something that’s really the valet’s job, and someone says, “He shouldn’t be doing that.” And most readers won’t care, but there will be a few who do.

And sometimes the author’s like, “I’m not rewriting the scene.” But the way I get around that is I’ll just have a character be aware it’s not the done thing. Like, maybe the butler was the one who raised the kid—he’s basically Alfred from Batman—and he just says, “This isn’t my job, but you’re lucky I love you.” That’s enough. You’ve acknowledged it. It becomes part of the world.

Rebecca: That’s such a great point. If you can convince the reader that it makes sense, you’re good. It’s all about showing that the characters themselves know the rule—and that they’re intentionally breaking it for a reason.

Addy: Yeah! You just let it be a quirk of the household. Then readers are like, “Okay, that’s just how it works for them.” Move on to Chapter Six. Let me live!

Rebecca: Yes. I love that.

Addy: Okay, so I know this is a self-editing series, but I’ve noticed that when I self-edit, I often end up going back to the bare bones of my world and brainstorming from scratch all over again. When we’re trying to develop intangible world building elements, what types of questions should we ask ourselves during that brainstorming?

Rebecca: Great question. So again, you can pick a default real-life setting or era to build from. That’s often the easiest place to start. Then ask yourself: what are the biggest deviations from that base reality?

Like, one common example is: women have a lot more freedom and respect than they historically would have. That’s fine—most of us don’t want to write historically accurate misogyny—but you should know that’s your deviation. Name it and own it.

Once you have that, you can brainstorm your world’s personality the same way you’d do character development. What does your society value? What’s its disposition—communal vs. independent, pessimistic vs. optimistic?

What does this world want? Is it striving for justice, or dominance, or wealth, or harmony?

What did this society grow out of? What’s their historical trauma or defining moment?

What kind of superstitions do they have? What curses and exclamations do people use—and why?

Do they believe in an afterlife? What kind? How do they earn their place? Are there multiple options?

Basically, treat the world like it’s one more character, with its own worldview and personality traits. Then go back during editing and make sure that “world character” stays consistent.

Addy: So how do memes, expletives, music, and things like that help enhance a story and give the reader a more intentional experience?

Rebecca: Immersion. Above all else—it’s immersion.

It can also help with relatability, but let me start with immersion. When a reader feels like they’re in the world—like they can picture it, move through it, imagine themselves as part of it—that’s immersion. It helps them emotionally invest in your story, your characters, your setting.

It also supports depth. And that’s not just for the reader—it’s also for you as the author. Especially for fantasy writers, world building is part of the fun. It helps you explore your own creativity, your theme, your setting. It brings a richness to the story that wouldn’t otherwise be there.

Things like food, music, sayings, expressions—those are what fandoms are built on. Think about it: Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, A Court of Thorns and Roses, even Shadow and Bone—they all have phrases and world-specific details that fans quote, share, or dress up for.

So imagine if you wrote a series, and you hosted an “Author Ball” for your fans. Would they know how to dress? Would they bring something like “llama spread” or quote a specific song from your world? That’s how immersive, well-done intangible world building leads to fan culture and long-term loyalty.

Addy: Yeah! And even just with names—it really sets the tone. Like, I love high fantasy with beautiful, unique, lyrical names… and then suddenly there’s a guy named Greg. Or a woman named Alice. And it just yanks me out of the story.

Rebecca: Yes! Names are a huge part of maintaining a consistent tone. I cannot stand reading something where everything is immersive and unique—and then some dude named Bob walks in.

If you’ve created a magical elven realm and everyone is named Aerilynn and Tovash and Keirys… Greg should not be there.

Addy: Yeah. Nobody in that—nobody in Gondor was named Fred.

Rebecca: Right. Exactly. Yes.

Addy: And even like—Samwise, right? So that’s already a slightly altered name. But then you can have nicknames! Like, I’m thinking of the Grishaverse—Shadow and Bone and all that good stuff. Leigh Bardugo did this thing where she kind of inverted name patterns. So you have Alina Starkov instead of “Starkova,” and some of the men have names ending in “-a,” which is traditionally feminine in Russian.

But it was done so cleanly and consistently that I just thought, okay, maybe this is intentional. It’s clearly set in late-Victorian Russia, but the naming conventions are her own. And that’s fine—because it’s consistent.

Rebecca: Yes, consistency is the key. You can do whatever you want… just do it consistently.

Addy: Exactly. And if someone asks, “Did you mean to do that?” and you say, “Well, I did it for 300 pages,” then yes—it was on purpose.

Rebecca: There you go.

Addy: So, do you have an example where intangible world building really made or broke a story?

Rebecca: Yes. And this kind of leans more into the tangible, but it’s one of my biggest pet peeves—especially in high fantasy.

I hate to say it, but in the ACOTAR series, they have flushing toilets. And elastic socks. And leggings. Just lots of little modern conveniences where the author clearly thought, “Well, I could do the historical version, but that’s too inconvenient.” So they just default to modern, even though the rest of the setting is clearly high fantasy.

And then there are books I’ve read—often historical fiction or low fantasy—where you have characters that are, like, atheists in the medieval era, but no one ever reacts to it. It’s not addressed. They’re just openly atheist and the world accepts it without question. That’s not realistic unless you’re going to explain why.

Another one: I once read a steampunk fantasy set in Regency England, and they quoted Shakespeare. Which made me pause and ask, “Wait… did Shakespeare even exist in this alternate timeline? Would his work still be famous?”

You can use references like that—but you have to think about them. Just a quick sentence or explanation can make a world of difference.

Addy: Yeah, that would make—wow. When you said atheist in medieval times, my brain immediately went, “I don’t know about medieval, but it would make a lot of sense in the Renaissance.”

Rebecca: Sure, more sense. But even then, you have to look at the historical context. They didn’t really have that word, or at least it wasn’t used the way we use it now. You were still expected to go to church, respect religious leaders, observe holy days. Those things were so baked into the culture.

Addy: I mean, to me, being an atheist just means you don’t believe in God. Whether or not you follow the practice of religion is separate from that. Like, you could still go through the motions.

Rebecca: Right.

Addy: So, I can actually see writing a character like that—but again, I was thinking Renaissance. This is after the Black Death, when people were really starting to question the church. The clergy’s behavior during the plague, the way the church handled it—or didn’t handle it—led to a lot of disillusionment. That’s part of what paved the way for things like Martin Luther, right?

Because before, people were like, “Surely the church wouldn’t lie to us.” And then later they’re like, “Oh, they absolutely would. They do not care.”

Rebecca: Exactly. And that right there? That’s an intangible. That worldview shift matters. If you were writing that story, I know you’d include one sentence where the character says, “I lost my entire family to the plague—I can’t believe a just God would allow that.” And that’s all it takes to make the world building work. But you still need to do it.

Addy: Right. You can’t assume readers are just going to roll with it and say, “Well, it’s fantasy.” Like no—give me context. Ground me in the world.

Addy: And even in the show—because my friend started me watching it—A Discovery of Witches… I liked how they showed that in some parts of the world, witches are more accepted. Like, in England, they’re not necessarily burning anyone at the stake. But then they also acknowledge that in Scotland, witch trials are actively happening.

So you’re like, “Oh, this is tricky,” because at that point, Scotland and England are still separate kingdoms. So you’re thinking, “This could get interesting.” And then I’m like, “Y’all better move before Elizabeth dies and James comes down here—because he writes that giant witch-hunting book.” That’s going to get real awkward real fast.

Rebecca: Yes! That’s such a good example of how tangible setting and intangible world building—like how witchcraft is perceived—interact. And it matters to the plot. That’s what makes it strong.

Addy: Yeah, and I’ve never read the books, but I started watching the show. I mean… it was Matthew Goode, so I was going to watch it, obviously. But yeah, I immediately started thinking, “You really have to be careful when you’re getting too close to real historical settings.” Because the ripple effects are huge.

Like, if you write a story where Queen Elizabeth I dies earlier, that changes everything. Now James comes down sooner, and all this other stuff happens differently. It’s a whole domino effect. That gives me so much anxiety!

Rebecca: Same. That’s why I stay away from major historical figures when I write. If I ever do historical fiction, it’ll be about some small village with characters who have zero impact on the big events.

Addy: Exactly! I mean, I write historical romance, and even I have to be careful. Because the historical record only captures so much. Like, someone like me wouldn’t be in it—not because I’m Black, but because of socioeconomic status.

There’s no record for people like me. The most you might get is a birth record, maybe a baptism, a death certificate. That’s it. You don’t get insight into who they were, what they thought. So I think about that when I write. There are whole lives that just… never got documented.

Rebecca: And that’s where fiction comes in. That’s what we’re doing—filling in those blank spaces with imagination, but grounding it in intentional world building.

Addy : So, I know we need to wrap up, but I do want to ask one last question. When should we establish these intangible world building elements? You kind of touched on it earlier—should they evolve over the course of the story? And what are some best practices around doing that? I assume you never want to, like, throw everything in at the beginning and info-dump, right?

Rebecca: Yes—please don’t info-dump. Like I mentioned earlier, earlier is usually better, but it doesn’t have to mean all at once. I suggest introducing intangible elements when they become relevant. You don’t need to mention everything ahead of time—just wait until it matters, then reveal it naturally.

Showing something just in time for it to be vitally relevant is always better than telling the reader “just in case.” That’s a general world building best practice.

And remember—you can show intangible elements through secondary characters long before it’s relevant to your protagonist. Like, say in Chapter One, a woman is begging for money, and your protagonist sneers and thinks, “Well, that’s what unwed mothers deserve in this society.” That moment sets the stage.

Then later, when your protagonist becomes an unwed mother herself, there’s already a built-in system of cultural consequences and a moment of reckoning.

Addy: Right. And I also think if the circumstances for the character change, that can force them to start paying attention to things they didn’t before. Like, if they start off secure—happy family, everything’s fine—and then they end up on the run, suddenly they’re hyperaware of their surroundings.

All of a sudden, those cultural beliefs and norms aren’t just background—they’re survival. Things they used to ignore now matter. And they have to start engaging with that intangible world building in a new way.

Rebecca: Absolutely. That’s a perfect example of how those elements can evolve and become more important over time. And whether it’s the character’s mindset that changes, or the culture around them, or just the way you explore the topic—it’s all valid. Just make sure that if something directly contradicts what was shown earlier, you explain why.

For example, if your story starts with the idea that unwed mothers are universally shunned, and halfway through someone runs a home that supports them, then address that shift. Is that person unusual? Is the culture changing? Don’t just pretend both are true—make the evolution part of the story.

Addy: Yeah, well—thank you!

I was also thinking—if the circumstances change for the character, they’re going to be paying attention to other things, like... maybe they didn’t care about the class system before, or religion, or family shame, but now they have to. Maybe it used to be something they could ignore. But now they’re alone on a highway with one good leg—and suddenly those intangible elements start to matter a lot more.

Rebecca: Absolutely.

Addy: Okay, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much.

Rebecca: You’re very welcome. Thank you for stepping in to guest host this episode. It was an absolute pleasure. I love getting off-track and talking through things like this!

So—next week, you and I will go over the more tangible side of world building, to wrap up this two-part topic. For now, I want to thank all our listeners for following along with the Story Savvy Self-Editing Series.

We’d appreciate it, as always, if you could like and subscribe to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Authors’ Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy and historical authors and readers beyond this joint series.

And finally, be sure to check out Addy’s awesome interracial historical romance books at addydulacauthor.net—that’s A-D-D-Y-D-U-L-A-C-A-U-T-T-O-R dot net—and follow her on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram @Addydulac_author. Thank you again.

Addy: Thank you for having me!

See you next time!

Avoiding Scene Stagnation: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 31

Tue, 05 Aug 2025 22:00:02 GMT

Avoiding Scene Stagnation: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript...

Huge thanks to Addy DuLac for guest-hosting! Please do check out her charming and humorous interracial historical romance novels at www.addydulacauthor.net. I really appreciate her stepping in on short notice to cover for my usual co-host, Agnes Wolfe.

On the point of action/agency being something that can cause scene stagnation, I wanted to clarify what I mentioned briefly in the episode. First, stagnation due to too much pure action is by far the least common way a scene might become stagnant. Second, it really takes a specific kind of constant action to need to be addressed around this: boring actions that don't move the story forward in an interesting or purposeful manner. There can often be a lot of overlap between this issue and an overuse of description, but when I mention an overuse of action, I really do mean narrating each little thing the protagonist is doing, as blunt, shallow actions, without adding variety and interest of dialogue and depth-adding descriptions.

That being said, this is a situation in which I MUCH more strongly recommend cutting the fluff of uninteresting events, rather than trying to add interest to them. Always remember the tool: "Arrive as late as possible, leave as soon as you can" to make sure you are only ever spending words on actions and events your reader will find interesting and worthwhile.

If you are looking to expand your understanding of this episode, I suggest Episode 13: Pacing—Rises and Falls , and Episode 30: Scene Core Events!

Happy editing!

Episode 31 Overview:

Avoiding Scene Stagnation

"Are any of my scenes stagnant? Are my dialogue, descriptions, and events in balance? Am I keeping my characters in motion adequately, and is my protagonist interacting with their arena and other avatars in interesting ways in every scene?"

If you're looking for how to fix flat scenes or improve writing realistic character reactions , this episode of this podcast for fantasy authors delivers powerful tools for crafting character-driven scenes . Packed with writing tips for fiction authors , we explore scene core events , writing dialogue that flows , and how to balance dialogue and action for maximum story impact. Whether you're diving into fantasy novel editing , working on story structure and character roles , or seeking book editing for indie authors , this self-editing guide is for you. Learn more about writing strong story beats and elevate your draft with confidence.

In this podcast for fantasy authors, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and guest co-host Addy DuLac who is standing in for Agnes Wolfe with Authors’ Alcove dig into how to avoid scene stagnation and keep your story flowing. Published author Addy DuLac writes interracial historical romance with a bold mix of humor, high emotion, and just the right amount of spice in books like One Season with the Duke and her Troublemakers Trilogy .

Whether your dialogue is dragging, your description is overbearing, or your pacing feels off, this episode is packed with practical tips to help you bring energy and movement back into your chapters. Rebecca shares self-editing strategies for balancing dialogue, action, and description and explores how to identify stagnant scenes, fix them with targeted tools, and add variety that keeps your story compelling without sacrificing emotional depth or character agency.

In this Episode:

What scene stagnation looks like and why it happens
How to balance dialogue, action, and description
Tools to diagnose and fix flat scenes
Why emotion, agency, and conflict are essential
How to use setting and POV shifts to revitalize a scene
When to change location, add tension, or adjust pacing
The difference between slow pacing and stagnation
Why unique scene types and locations matter

Recommended Resources:
Read Addy DuLac’s books here: https://www.addydulacauthor.net/

Author’s Alcove Membership: authorsalcove.com
Fantasy Book Giveaway: authorsalcove.org

Chapters:

[00:00] Intro
[01:10] Meet Addy DuLac
[05:55] Understanding Scene Stagnation
[08:23] Common Mistakes in Scene Stagnation
[10:34] Identifying Slow-Paced vs. Stagnant Scenes
[14:01] Red Flags for Static Scenes
[15:38] Strategies to Combat Stagnation
[18:05] The Role of Point of View
[20:03] Choosing the Right Fix for Stagnation
[22:12] Maintaining Scene Variety

See you next week for episode 32: Intangible World-Building!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 31 Transcript:

Avoiding Scene Stagnation

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is Episode 31 of the Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as a published author, today Addy asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to.

My usual co-host, Agnes, and I have covered a bunch in this series so far, including last week's episode on the all-important topic of scene core events. Today, my temporary new co-host Addy and I are going to take a look at avoiding scene stagnation. By the end of this episode, you'll hopefully feel confident identifying where you may have a stagnant scene (or a part of a scene) and have some really solid tools in hand for adding variety, immersion, and interest.

Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and former critique partner, the author of One Season with the Duke—which is the one that I got to critique—and the Troublemakers trilogy, author Addy DuLac. Hello!

Addy DuLac: Hello! Nice to be here.

Rebecca: Yeah! Why don't you tell us a little bit about you and your writing and anything you'd like to share before we dive in with our first question here?

Addy: Oh, okay. Well, a little bit about my writing; I’ve been writing sort of unofficially since I was in the eighth grade, but I published my first novel, One Season with the Duke, in 2023, you know, during the Great Plague.

I grew up in Trinidad and Tobago. It’s a little island off the coast of Venezuela. The culture there is truly multicultural and truly multiethnic. Interracial couples are sort of the standard. You barely find anybody who’s just one ethnicity. Everybody is everything. And you can see it in their faces. You can hear it in their names. You’ll find somebody named like Arthur Gonzalez, and he’s, you know, Korean. And you’re just like, “okay, sure.” Right? That’s the kind of culture I grew up in.

So, my stories tend to follow that idea and delve into that example, and the difficulties people face when creating a couple that blends different racial identities, different cultures, different socioeconomic groups, all that kind of stuff.

So, a lot of the internal—at least some of the internal—tension is going to be there. And also, that ends up giving a lot of fodder for external tension, right? Because there’s a lot of stuff going on there. I’m also a student of history, so while I do take a little bit of creative license for the sake of the romance novel aesthetic, I do try to stay true to the reality of the racial demographics of Europe and the UK between the 18th and 19th centuries, because that’s the area and time in which I generally write.

So, if it’s legally or theoretically possible based on a historical fact, then it’s probably going to be in there. The fact is, there was a lot of racial mixing going on. Right? England had conquered half the globe, if not the whole damn thing. And so, they’re either pulling these ethnicities into England proper, or their army is going out into these places. These military men are marrying and having these children, and they’re bringing them in, right?

And we all know the second or third-born sons are probably going into the military. So, if enough people die, you could end up with a mixed-race baron coming in and you’re just like, “what is happening?” That’s what happens.

Writing-wise, I think I’m traditionally called a plantser, where you’re combining plotting and pantsing. I need a strong framework from which to begin writing. I find it very difficult to organize my thoughts if I don’t have some kind of a framework to work from. And I always have a pretty good idea of my characters and an idea of the backstory or stories that I’d like to use them for. So normally I need a framework to organize that, and then I start writing and let the story take me wherever it’s going to go, right? I let the characters live their lives and I’m just sort of catching up with my middle fingers.

I love writing—I like a little bit of comedy, but I also love a lot of drama and romance. I love hurting people’s feelings when I’m writing. I like high emotional stakes, and I am pro third-act breakups. I will not be taking any feedback on this, when they are appropriate. I love me a third-act breakup.

And also, I like beta males better than alpha males. I find alpha males very annoying, both in real life and generally in stories. So, my males tend toward, you know, the nurturing type. That’s what I like to write.

Rebecca: Very nice.

Addy: That’s me. So, Rebecca, what is scene stagnation and why is it a problem?

Rebecca: Scene stagnation is when a whole scene, or part of it, or a specific aspect of it, isn’t moving, or is just too much of the same thing going on, and on, and on. This is a problem because you really don’t want your readers to just sort of space out while they’re reading, or listening to it as an audiobook.

I was thinking about this in the car the other day. I was listening to an audiobook and there was a whole scene where I realized I wasn’t even thinking about what I was listening to, because there wasn’t enough happening in the scene to hold my interest.

This is also a problem because it can make it harder to deliver a core event, like I talked about in the last episode. If you are trying to deliver a core event of—I’ll go back to that same example I used there of—“alright well my female main character is realizing her husband has been sabotaging her career,” and the whole scene apart from that sentence is really boring, that moment isn’t going to land.

Addy: So how is this different from the topic of pacing, and why are we talking about it again here at this stage of the process?

Rebecca: Sure. It is very much related to pacing. However, scene stagnation has nothing to do with intensity of a scene and a lot more to do with these smaller scale choices, like having the characters move around the setting, or adding and removing dialogue, and that sort of thing.

I wanted to wait until now in the series to talk about this because pacing is a bigger issue which needs to be addressed while looking at how scenes move into and out of each other, and looking at the patterns of intensity across sequences of scenes. And need to be looked at in the context of stakes and genre and other big considerations.

Scene stagnation, on the other hand, is very much a scene-by-scene check that only matters within a compartmentalized scene. And doesn’t need to be connected in any of those bigger ways to genre or stakes.

Addy: As an editor, what are some common mistakes around scene stagnation that you see in other people’s work?

Rebecca: It usually comes down to missing the right balance between the aspects of dialogue, description, and agency—or action, if you want to look at it that way. So, the common mistakes are:

· Talking heads, where it’s just dialogue. You've got a page or more of just, *dialogue* she said, *dialogue* he asked, *dialogue* she intoned. Whatever, you know, markers you’re using. If it’s just pages of dialogue and you could imagine it playing out as just these two heads talking to each other with nothing actually happening around them, that’s a stagnation issue.

· On the description point, if you’re describing a lot of things that don’t matter to the story that’s playing out and don’t move that story forward, if you’re doing those descriptions in too much depth or length, that’s another stagnation issue.

· And then on the agency side, I’ve pretty much already said it, but it’s when you don’t have things happening. Or, you have everything happening and no one is talking about it, nobody is thinking about it, or processing, or trying to affect it.

So, these all need to be kept in balance.

And then these flags can also look like:

· A lack of emotion, to any degree, in a scene. If it’s just really emotionally flat and no one feeling, or showing, or expressing any emotions.

· It can also look like a lack of goals, motive, or conflict in play. You really do need to have something pushing them forward, pulling them forward, or causing hurdles in that momentum.

· And then lastly, one of the red flags I’ve seen in work that I’ve worked on is that nothing really changes from the beginning to the end. And that very much goes back to the last episode on core scene events.

Addy: What is the difference between a slow-paced scene and a stagnant scene? Is there a difference?

Rebecca: T here’s definitely overlap, like I mentioned earlier. A slow-paced scene is low-stakes and low-emotion, like we talked about back in Episode 13 on this topic. A stagnant scene is one that lacks surface-level interest, missing that balance between dialogue, description, and things being done. So, there’s not much difference, but again, pacing looks at the scene wholistically within the highs and lows of your whole book, and your general tension—what’s the word I’m looking for? —Goldilocks zone. Stagnation just cares about each page, or paragraph, or scene one at a time.

Addy: Where’s the line between just a style choice and stagnation on these points you listed earlier? For example, speaking specifically to that “talking heads” one, what would be classified as just a dialogue-heavy scene versus where does it cross the line into talking heads?

Rebecca: This can be very subjective, and something you kind of need to just feel out. But the tool I’ve given clients in the past is: think about imagination cooldown.

So, when you are given a visual description of a character, or the room that they are doing things in, you have the strongest visual of that in the moment that it is being described. And then over the following seconds or minutes, that starts fading out as other things come to the forefront of that imagination. So try to keep enough of those descriptions and actions involved so that the readers keep their sense of who is speaking, and where, and under what conditions often enough that it doesn’t have a chance to fade completely to black.

So, dialogue-heavy scenes still need to have a backdrop of things happening. And vice-versa: if you have a very descriptive scene, you still need to have some dialogue to let those descriptions have context in the story being told. I hope that makes sense.

Addy: Sometimes when you have a dialogue-heavy scene, if it’s a talking heads situation, when it starts off it can just be showing how fast the dialogue is going back and forth. Because a lot of times if you’re trying to show they’re just bouncing back and forth off each other you don’t have time—it’s not going to be believable that the character is taking all this time to build all these things. It’s like “no, respond.” But you can’t do that for a whole page. Right? So maybe every three or four exchanges, and then you’re like okay, now somebody needs to describe something. Or someone needs to do something with their face, or something.

Rebecca: Yeah. And give the visuals first. So, set things up, and then do some back-and-forths, and then give it a line of refreshing those visuals. Refreshing that interaction with the setting. And then like you said: do another half-page of the snappy back-and-forth. It’s all about keeping that mix, and that variety.

Addy: What are some red flags we should look out for in our own work that may suggest it’s stagnant?

Rebecca: Oh boy. So, hopefully I’ve already given listeners some things to watch out for. But, running through a bit of a list to answer that:

· It’s a red flag if most of a page is all dialogue with no movement, no actions, anything like that.

· It’s a red flag if there’s a lack of goals, motives, or conflicts in play. If you can’t point to any goals, motives, or conflict in a scene, it probably has some level of stagnation worth addressing.

· It’s a red flag if dialogue or description with minimal action is more than two-thirds of a page or a scene. Again, balance. And two-thirds of one things tends to be that outward cusp for things feeling stagnant.

· It’s a red flag if you had flagged a given scene as incredibly low-intensity back when we were talking about pacing, and you weren’t sure how to fix that. Maybe now revisit that with this toolkit and see if that can help.

· And then lastly and as always, if you get a critique partner or beta reader, anything like that, and get feedback on a scene or a chapter that says something like: “This felt really slow,” or “Man, my interest really fell away,” “This really didn’t hold my interest,” “Why did you include this scene?”—anything like that, that’s good feedback that you should pay attention to and go in and see if there are surface-level changes like these that you can make to fix that.

Addy: If a scene is stagnant, how can we fix that?

Rebecca: It really depends on what the kind of stagnation is. So, first you need to name that, and then you can go on from there.

· Replace thoughts and narration with dialogue if you think you’re just really, really heavy on descriptions and nothing much is happening. Forcing lines to simply get said out loud can help with that surface-level interest.

· You can also try changing the setting of the scene to force actions and interactions. This is probably the one that I end up recommending the most, and that I make good use of in my own books. If a scene is stagnant, move it outdoors. Chane it from home to work. Change it from a quiet, private location to a loud, very public one. If you just change where this scene is taking place, that can do a lot of good to that stagnation issue.

· You can also try adding in other characters to create conflict. If it’s currently stagnant as a conversation between, you know, the two lovers, toss the antagonist in the mix and see how that changes things. That will do a lot.

· You can also try slimming down dialogue, like we were talking about, if you have that ‘talking heads’ situation. Or introduce a reason like a time constraint or them being overheard to force them to much more concise and try to get their ideas across in much fewer words.

· A couple other thoughts here are just: make something go wrong, or harder to do. I know I’ve talked about this in the past; it helps with stagnation, too.

· And then lastly, make the protagonist and the others with their setting more. So instead of just picking “I’m going to make this setting”—let’s say, a busy library—make them take books off the shelves. And try to use the Dewey Decimal system. And try to find somewhere to sit and be frustrated because their knee hurts and then find somewhere to sit on the floor. And then the librarian yells at them. Make them interact with these other aspects that aren’t just dialogue and that can really help with stagnation.

Addy: When it comes to stagnation, can it also be like when you’ve been in one person’s POV for too long? Like if you do dual POV? I feel like sometimes that can also be a thing where it’s like, this person doesn’t really have—like internally their dialogue—first of all it’s been missing. But also, you would know where they are. So, there’s not as much to know about their perspective. Whereas you may have the other person who’s in the scene, and it’s like, we haven’t seen them for a minute, and maybe because we haven’t seen them, there could be more going on. There’s more to explore, there’s more to catch people up on. And it could kind of shock it out of going for three chapters where it’s like, maybe switch it over. You know? What do you think of that?

Rebecca: I think you have a good point there. I think you definitely have a point. But I think that the other ways that I’ve looked at POV in this scene (correction: series) such as looking at who has the most at stake, looking at agency, looking at those kind of things need to take precedence. So, I’m not sure that I’d say that it’s a problem to have three—maybe four at a stretch—POV scenes in a row from the same protagonist. However, if it’s an option, and you’re not going to mess up those other, more important, factors by deciding to rearrange scene so that you’re doing more of an alternation, that can help. I would say that it’s not an issue (within reason), but it is a tool that you can use if you’re not screwing up the “is this the right POV for this scene” kind of things.

Addy: Right. So, how can you tell or decide which option for adding interest from that list you just gave us is the right choice? And you touched on that a little bit, but tell us more.

Rebecca: Yes. So, to answer a little more specifically, again, you really need to name the problem first. And then if you really want to sit down and do this as an exercise, I recommend naming the problem and then naming what the positive desire opposite of that would be.

So maybe you name the problem is: talking heads. And then the alternate version of that which you want to write down is something along the lines of: well-balanced with action and dialogue. Or: dialogue is happening around something interesting happening.

So, once you have those two statements, you can just make the call right there. If the answer is “I need to slim down dialogue,” great, No further (brainstorming) work needed.

But if you’re still not sure, you can just sit with that for a second and imagine how each of the optional fixes that I listed earlier would change the scene, and how that scene transitions into the next. Sometime when you do that, you’ll think through and be like: “okay, well, I currently have the talking heads problem. What if I just slimmed down all of the dialogue to a quarter as much spoken words as it currently is. Okay, well that would produce issues. I wouldn’t be able to deliver all of the information that I need to, the conversation would feel unnaturally short, and it would make the overall chapter too short to fit in with the flow of the story. Alright, that’s not the right option. So let’s imagine through if I changed the setting so that they’re forced to do more around the dialogue? Okay, well, thinking through that, that’s not going to make the scene too much longer, I only have to add 300 words. And I can still do a little bit of (dialogue) slimming, but I don’t have to lose any of the important information. And then when I transition into the next scene, it’s going to feel even better because they’re already in that part of town by changing the setting. Okay, then that’s the right answer.”

And then lastly for deciding how you want to fix a stagnant scene, just save your current version of this scene because again, I always recommend just “I’m going to put this over here in another document so it’s not lost and I can revert if I need to,” and try applying a change and see if you like it. Or if you don’t like it, or if you need to combine it with a different solution and play with that.

Addy: I know we need to wrap up, but I do want to ask one last question: if we make all of our scenes interesting, doesn’t that risk them all feeling the same? Which goes against what you were suggesting back in Episode 13 on pacing?

Rebecca: Yes and no. The tip here—and this is one that I picked up from Story Grid and then interpreted heavily, so take that with a grain of salt—but it’s this idea of scene type variety.

And I talked about this a little bit in the last episode, where the point of naming that core event was also making sure that they’re all unique within the scope of that story. So, if you have multiple scene with the core event of “they have a revealing conversation in a library,” then those aren’t unique core events and you need to change at least one of them so that they are all unique. And the way that I personally track this in my books—and I have done for clients when this was a big problem in their books—was just in whatever list of chapter names you have, put a little note next to them about the location—so that could be “oh this is home , restaurant, buss, things like that—and then put another, more descriptive single word with it like this is a conversation scene. This is a fight scene. This is an argument scene. This is a self-reflection scene. And check those for variety.

Because a self-reflection scene is going to probably have more description, maybe some action, less dialogue. An argument scene is going to be heavy in dialogue, but (ideally) still be balanced with some action and that tension and conflict.

So as long as you have variety in those locations and if you would describe them as contemplative, fighting, moving forward, stumbling backwards, those kinds of things, you should be all set in having enough variety that the reader isn’t going to feel like it’s getting repetitive.

Addy: That comes into—I write historical romance, and in historical romance it’s like everything happens in a ballroom. And it’s just like, everything can’t happen in a ballroom. Like, let them go somewhere else for once in their life, right?

Rebecca: Right! But even then, if you have five scene that are set at balls or in ballrooms, one of those can be self-reflective, one of those can be argumentative, one of those can be very, very flirty. You can have variety in the combinations, even if you have multiple scenes in the same setting, or with the same type.

Addy: Or like, in different—because, I mean, a ball—there could be a dinner portion, they could be in the yard, the garden, right? They’re dancing, maybe she’s just in the refreshments room like, they can just be in different spots. Like you can’t have it where every five minutes, somebody’s in a waltz, right? Even though it does make it easier!

Thank you so much. This has been fantastic.

Rebecca: Awesome. I look forward to doing a couple more episodes with you.

Next week, you and I will go over the often-overlooked aspects of intangible worldbuilding, especially for fantasy and historical fiction.

For now, I would really like to thank everyone who follows along with this series. We’d appreciate it if you could help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Authors’ Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy and historical authors and readers beyond this joint series.

I also very highly encourage you to check out Addy’s awesome interracial historical romance books at addydulacauthor.net—that’s A-D-D-Y-D-U-L-A-C-A-U-T-T-O-R dot net—and follow her on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram @Addydulac_author. Thank you again.

Addy: Thank you for having me on.

See you next time!

Core Scene Events: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 30

Tue, 29 Jul 2025 21:55:50 GMT

Core Scene Events: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript...

A point of clarity: "...and the location of that core event within the chapter feels balanced." I failed to mention where this is within a scene when recording the episode. It is typically between 1/3 mark and near-end of a chapter, though more ideally in the third quadrant, so between the 1/2 point and 3/4 of the scene/chapter. If you are intentionally using cliffhanger chapter breaks, then I would still suggest using this rule of thumb per scene (all of the events surrounding a core event, ignoring your arbitrary chapter division choices.

The other episodes referenced in this one are:

Episode 7: Beginning, Middle, & End

Episode 18: Appropriate Intensity

Episode 21: Word Count

Episode 25: Subplots & Plot Threads

Happy editing!

Episode 30 Overview:

Core Scene Events

“Does every scene or chapter have a core memorable event? Is it interesting, accurate, and unique within the book? Does it move the story forward, and impact the overarching plot?”

Need help defining what anchors a scene? In this podcast for fantasy authors we cover that and more as we discuss core scene events !

In episode 30 of the Story Savvy Self-Editing series, we tackle the single most important topic in this whole series: Core Scene Events.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

Other terms for core events
How to check every scene for a strong core event
How to fix a scene that lacks a strong core event

Chapters:

0:00 Introductions

1:45 Defining Scene Core Events

1:20 Why They Are Important And The Downsides Of Missing Them

5:16 Testimony From Agnes About Her Own Book

6:17 Does Every Scene Need A Core Event?

8:13 The Magic Question For Gauging Scene Core Events

11:30 Red Flags To Watch For In Your Work

13:39 Cutting, Editing, Or Combining Dud Scenes

18:06 Which Core Event Is Right For A Scene

20:26 Connecting Scene Core Events To Theme

20:58 How Does Point Of View Affect Core Scene Events

23:32 Wrap-Up

Recommended Resources:

Need a Developmental Editor? www.hartboundediting.com
Author’s Alcove Membership: www.authorsalcove.com
Fantasy Book Giveaway: www.authorsalcove.org

See you next for Episode 31: Avoiding Scene Stagnation

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 30 Transcript:

Scene Core Events

Rebecca Hartwell : Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing podcast. This is episode 30 of the weekly story savvy series where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great, as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to.

Last week we finished out the second module of the series by talking about character consistency, depth, and uniqueness.

Today, we are going to start the scene-level module by talking about the all-important scene-core event. I very much feel this is one of the most important topics in this whole series, so I hope you are all paying attention. By the end of this episode you will all hopefully feel confident naming the core event for every scene, spotting anywhere you might need to add one, and checking that they all make your scenes mean something to the overall story.

Joining me to ask all of the questions is my good friend and co-host Agnes Wolfe. Welcome!

Agnes Wolfe : Hi, I am the aspiring fantasy author who is hoping to release her middle-grade fantasy novel later next year. And I am also the host and founder of Author’s Alcove.

I am here today to tackle this topic of making sure every scene has an anchor event and purpose.

I often like to start out just by defining what we are talking about so that we know that the two of us and our listeners are on the same page. How would you define a scene-core event?

Rebecca : Sometimes this could be called an anchor event, a change event, the turning point of a scene, the heart of a scene, the point of the scene, anything like that. So, if you are familiar with any of those concepts, that’s what we are talking about, and if you are not that’s fine, just understand if you go looking into this topic you might find it under those names.

The main question here is, “what makes the scene memorable”? The core event is essentially what the reader will remember about the scene after the fact. Be that by the end of the book, later in the series, or years after they’ve read it.

It is the one page, or the one paragraph, of the scene that the story could not possibly move forward without. It is the core revelation, or actions, sometimes a choice that leads to one of those two, or change in a scene, which means that something is different from the beginning of the chapter to the end, or from the end of the chapter before to the beginning of the next. The core scene event is all of those things.

Agnes : One of the most important things that I think has really helped me in my own writing when I’m thinking about the core event of each scene, is you asked me to ask myself “what is the, like…”, to finish the sentence, “this is the chapter that this happens,” and so I ask myself “what is it that this happens in this particular chapter?” And so, when I ask myself that question, what's interesting is I realize when I have not done a good job.

And so, I am going to ask you, first off, why is having a core event important, and what are the downsides if we do not have a strong enough core event in a scene?

Rebecca : Boredom, first and foremost. If a scene lacks a core event, the reader is likely to reach the end and wonder why you wasted their precious time with it.

The most common issue that I see as a developmental editor, right across the board—all genres, all authors—is that they will have a scene or scenes that don't actually move things forward, because it lacks a core event. This is sometimes because they are trying to wrap things up from previous scenes or transitions into the next, because they want to do more character development all by itself, or because they just had an idea for a scene and wanted to include but it didn't hinge on anything particularly meaningful. All of these things are fine and great to include but not without a point, a plot point, anchoring them. Momentum is vital. And having a core scene event in every single scene, every single chapter, is one of the most important ways to keep it going and keep the momentum engaging to your reader.

Agnes : What I found interesting when I was editing my book is there were several chapters that you had pointed out that I needed to either strengthen the core scene event or I needed to actually add one or just scrap the scene all together. And so, when I was doing my most recent one that I was doing, I realized that all I really needed to do was add like a paragraph, and it, because, like, I knew what I wanted to happen in it and then I realized, “Oh! This actually strengthens my character”. It made my character less flat. Which was amazing. And it also, like, made that scene have purpose, which I was absolutely in love with, that you had recommended doing one of those things with. (laughing)

Rebecca : Excellent.

Agnes : But when I did read it again, I was like, “Yes, that really improved that particular scene”, and it actually improved my character, too. It took care of two things, and I don’t even think it was a full paragraph, it was just a few sentences in the middle, and then I added another sentence at the very end, and I was like, “Oh! I made it better”!

So, does every scene need one [core event], or is it okay to have our character deep in thought and reflecting on their life in some scenes? Things like that. Is that okay?

Rebecca : I personally feel that every single chapter or scene needs a core event, but the intensity expectations for those core events will vary wildly by genre.

In the lightest, tamest genres, the core event expectations are along the lines of someone getting picked as the diamond of the season dashing everyone else’s hopes, or a friend betrays the protagonist socially, or the protagonist hears of a scandal in their community that makes them move forward with more caution, things like that.

In the more intense genres, the core events need to match that. Those core events might look more like near death experiences or learning secrets that change who the protagonist thinks are the bad guys or the villains. Or it could be getting chased and imprisoned, losing a friend permanently, things like that.

But both of these are averages. Not all scene core events need to be really intense in the really intense genres, or necessarily super light in the light ones. But like I talked about in the episode about appropriate intensity, for scene core events in any genre you want to stay within your spectrum for all of your scene core events but have variety within your spectrum. So, for intense you need to be within the intense spectrum, but you want to use that whole space. And same thing for less intense.

Agnes : So, what would be, like… I know I’ve already mentioned what you said, but I would love you to say your words because how you worded it was so amazing and I could not get it out of me for the life of me, but would be a good question or tool to help us gage whether our scene has a main event?

Rebecca : It is very much the question that you mentioned earlier. For every single scene in your book, and ideally in probably no more than twenty words (the shorter the better) write out the sentence, “This is the scene where ___”.

If I could convince every single listener, every writer to do one exercise from this whole series I would like it to be this one. Check that you can write out that statement; “This is the scene where ___”, for every single chapter, and or scene, and make sure that the statement is accurate, interesting, and unique within your book.

If you write out, for example, “This is the scene where Susan learns her husband is sabotaging her”, but she’s only really finding the first clue and not yet connecting the dots, then it's inaccurate and you need to try filling out that statement again.

If, then, you make the statement, “this is the scene where Susan finds, but ignores, her husband’s journal”, then that’s too boring of a statement to be a strong core event, as readers won't know the future significance of that journal because she doesn't yet know the significance of that journal. And you need to try again, likely by going into that chapter in your manuscript and trying to add or strengthen—like you talked about earlier—a core event for that scene.

So then, you go in, you edit the scene and you get back to this is the scene where, “This is the scene where Susan learns her husband is sabotaging her”, but you still have her having the same realization in a later scene which was originally the “first and only time” that she had this full realization where she connected all the dots, and in that case this statement isn't unique within this book and you need to go change one of those scenes, or both I suppose, so they all have different, accurate, and interesting core statements.

10; 43 Agnes : So, you know, you expounded on something that… so you asked that question but then you expounded on something that really is going to help me, and having to actually write out the scene and making sure it does not align with other ones, because immediately when you said that I was thinking, “Oh wait, I think I may have done the same thing in two different ones”, but I didn’t… you know, they are very, very different, but like I think if I said what my core event was, I think they would be too similar. So that’s something I think is really going to strengthen my story when I go back through with it, I’m going to have to really look at. So, thank you so much for there. And so like, I know that’s a question I have asked with each of the scenes, especially the ones that you have pointed, but I have been trying to ask myself anyway, even with ones that you have not mentioned it.

But I do want to ask, kinda expound on that question or statement, are there red flags that we should look for so we can spot these before we have a developmental editor?

Rebecca : Yea, that tool question of, “this is the scene where ___" is the best tool that I can offer for this, but you can also try checking your cause-and-effect chain.

In each chapter, name one big-ish (depends on your genre) thing that was caused by the scene before, and one big-ish thing that causes the next chapter to start how it does. This can be the same moment. So, the, let’s say, chapter five can cause this one event in chapter six that also happens to cause chapter seven. The importance is that there is movement in and out of that scene in that cause-and-effect kind of chain. If you don’t have that, it's likely a dud scene that you need to address around your core events.

Another way to check this is to make a list of every single scene in the book, and then mark off, or highlight, color code, the first five scenes that you can think of with the biggest emotions, events, changes, or the like where you are absolutely certain there is a strong, memorable, and unique core event. Then, do the same thing to the next five that you are the next most certain about. When you’re down to only about five left unmarked, those are the ones that you are less certain about, that you are the least certain about, go ahead and go and look at those only. Would it be accurate to say those scenes are only there as wrap-up for what came before, or transition into what comes next? If that statement is accurate for any of the scenes, it's probably a dud scene and you should address adding or strengthening a core event for it.

Agnes : So if we do actually have a scene that is pretty flat, do you recommend cutting, editing, or probably, my favorite, combining, especially if you are absolutely in love with a flat scene, (laughs) combining it with another scene to make it stronger. How would you recommend/suggesting fixing it and which way, and how do we know which one we want to do?

Rebecca : It depends on the specific situation to some extent, and the temperament and skill and biases of the author. You are absolutely correct that sometimes it can be very, very hard because you are attached to whatever reason you had to include the scene initially.

There are basically three ways to fix a scene that’s lacking a core event, and you just touched on all three, so I am glad I apparently explained the options well when I did your edit.

Adding a core event is the first option. Just brainstorm what moment or action, or step taken, secret reveal, choice made and acted upon (you know, at least one solid step. It doesn't have to be all of the way from the decision), what change of plan or reason from that, or anything like that you could possibly add to the scene to anchor it. Pick a favorite and add it. Or, you can take a look at what you already have in a scene, which you mentioned earlier in your own work, and look at what could act as a strong anchor if you just increase the stakes, the emotions, or anything like that around it to bring it up in strength and memorability.

Scrapping the scene is the second option, but for a lot of authors, including myself sometimes, we feel a lot of emotional resistance to scrapping that scene, like you mentioned with that attachment to it. If you want to try that option, I suggest a few things to make it easier and more effective for you. First, read the scene and make sure that there aren't any vital details, hints, foreshadowing, things like that, that you want to snag one sentence or one paragraph at a time and put it elsewhere first, because that still needs to be part of the story. And then, don’t delete the scene necessarily. Move it to a scrapped document—which I believe I mentioned in this series before—that you keep for that book. Copy it out of the manuscript, paste it into the ‘scrapped’ document, and then save both with backups, because none of us like losing our work. That way, if you change your mind or think of a necessary line that you need to bring back into the book somewhere it’s really easy, you can trust that it’s right there. You aren't deleting your hard work, you're just moving it off to the side.

And then lastly, combining scenes to give a chapter a stronger core event is the trickiest option. First of all, make sure that this doesn't make your new chapter too long. Go back to episode 21 on word count if you need to on this topic. Second, within the suggestion [for how long chapters should be], chapters are basically separated between major events. A chapter encapsulates, or compartmentalized, one major event. So, when you combine two, it can feel like you missed a chapter break that was “supposed” to happen, even to casual readers. And then the third, sort of caveat or warning here is that when you do this in the name of anchoring both of these scenes on one core event, it can make either the build up to that core event, or the resolution after it, feel way too long. So, if you decide to combine, if you decide to go with this third option, I suggest that you then try to edit it down to an ideal length, rework things to avoid having any jump forwards in time or location, and that you shift things around as needed, so that the set up and the payoff of the core event feel reasonable, and the location of that core event within the chapter feels balanced.

Agnes : So, let's say we do have a core event, like I just mentioned that I had those two scenes. They both have a core event, but I realized they’re the same core event for one thing. How can we make sure that it's the right core event and that that scene is impactful to the overall story? Because obviously that's a question I'm going to have to ask as I decide which one is the one that actually is that true core event.

Rebecca : Yes, you can start by looking at your global story structure, which we touched on very early in this series, and see where in the full picture of things that moment makes the most sense to land.

So, if this is a midpoint shift kind of moment, as your core event, it makes more sense to put that in the middle, than it does in chapter two or two from the end. That can help make that decision.

I would also say that checking that cause and effect chain is a very likely helpful tool for this. If the core of an event in any given scene is unrelated to the last core event or unrelated to the next core event, it might not be the right choice to be right there.

However, unless you're looking at differentiating things, like you are, I don't suggest stressing about whether or not a core event is the “right one” for a given scene. Whether or not it is impactful, on the other hand, is absolutely something to pay attention to. In my experience, if a core event is strong enough to meet the “this is the scene where ___” test, it’s almost always impacting the overall story adequately.

In the rare exceptions where it still isn't meeting that requirement or it meets that requirement, but it isn't actually impacting things, it's often because of more of a case of it affecting the wrong plot. So, affecting a subplot that is too separate from the main plot. In which case, I refer everyone back to Episode 25 on that topic so that you can address the actual issue and not a symptom of it.

Agnes : So, should every core event tie into the story’s central theme or conflict?

Rebecca : It can, but I would hardly consider that a requirement. The core event is really just the what of what happens in a scene, while the theme is more likely the why the thing happens and the conflict might be the why, it might be the how, it might be the what of what happens. It really depends.

Agnes : So, I know we are running out of time, so I do want to wrap up here. I do have one last question. I know one of the things that affected several of my scenes around whether the core event came across as strong enough was my point of view choice. How does point of view affect scene strength or anchor effect strength?

Rebecca : It has a huge effect, because whoever is the POV character in a given scene needs to own the agency of the core event. It's just one of those things that will feel really off to readers if you get it wrong. This is because who the protagonist is, is signaled to the reader by who uses the most agency in a scene. And the POV character should almost always be the protagonist in a given scene. The protagonist is (or should be) the most invested, the character with the most at stake, and the character with the most complex emotional response to explore. Not to mention the character you want the reader most invested in. And being in their head for the moments that are biggest to them is how you achieve that.

So, if you have a scene where the scene core event is chosen, learned, or done by the POV character, you're fine. If you have a scene where the core event is chosen, done, or learned by someone other than the POV character, then you essentially have two options for addressing it. Option one is, that you change that POV of the scene so that the same person owns the agency of the core event as you originally had it, but it is now seen through their eyes, through their point of view. Option two here, is that you change who chooses, learns, and/or does that core event to make it the person who’s POV you have been in the entire time. If you get this right, it will flow more smoothly and work in favor better for your overall story. When you get it wrong, it can make the core event a lot harder to identify and muddy the waters of the story and the reader's perception of it significantly.

Agnes : Thank you very much for that. That was one of the strongest things that you had said in our development to edit, that kind of—I had never really thought of it in those terms, so I appreciate that.

Rebecca : Good! Yeah, next week we will keep going on this sort of scene-level check, where these are all topics to go through your book, and at every single scene give it a little moment of, “Am I hitting this? Am I doing this? Do I need to fix this?” And, next week’s episode will be on the topic of avoiding scene stagnation and making sure everyone has some very tangible tools for keeping things interesting at that level.

For now, I want to thank everyone who has listened and followed along with this series. We would appreciate it if you would help up by following and liking the Hart Bound Editing podcast, and the Authors Alcove Podcast. And you can find lots more content of fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series in both places.

Agnes : And again, thank you so much. Can’t wait to talk ‘til next week!

See you next time!

Character Consistency, Depth, & Uniqueness: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 29

Tue, 22 Jul 2025 22:47:55 GMT

Character Consistency, Depth, & Uniqueness: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript...

Episode 19: Plot Holes & Character Inconsistencies may have additional helpful information for readers on this topic, as we went over avoiding character inconsistencies in relationship to plot holes there.

Correction: the episodes covering names, as mentioned in this episode, is planned for the fourth and final module of this series, not the third as I stated while recording.

I realize that my points about title and relationships, all in answer to one of Agnes's later question are nearly identical. But I hope that have options about how to look at it or think about the topic, as well as having slightly different things to say with each, is worth the mild repetition.

Happy editing!

Episode 29 Overview:

Character Consistency, Depth, & Uniqueness

"Do each of my characters act consistently within themselves and as intended? Are they three-dimensional, with flaws, quirks, dreams, etc.? Do they too strongly fall into stereotypes or tropes? Are their character voices distinct, varied, and realistic?"

Looking for DIY developmental editing for characters ? In this episode, we discuss editing characters for depths , creating unique supporting characters , and making characters distinct . Whether you are working on character voice development , defining character agency in storytelling , or improving character arcs , this episode will help your good story become a great one.

In this podcast for fantasy authors, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell offers developmental editing tips on how to make sure your characters aren’t falling flat. Joined by aspiring fantasy author Agnes Wolfe, the two discuss character consistency, how to recognize flat characters, and practical ways to give them depth, personality, and presence.

In episode 29 of the Story Savvy Self-Editing series, they dive deep into the challenges writers face when creating multi-dimensional characters. They discuss how much complexity is too much, the role of character statements in self-editing, and how to ensure character reactions and motivations make sense within the context of the story. Rebecca also shares methods for avoiding cliche characters and how to distinguish your cast even when names or stereotypes are similar.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

What character consistency is and why it matters
How to evaluate if a character lacks depth
Practical tools to fix flat characters and enhance voice
How to avoid overwriting or cliche when building distinct characters
Tips for differentiating similar characters (beyond just names)

Recommended Resources:

Author’s Alcove Membership: authorsalcove.com
Fantasy Book Giveaway: AuthorsAlcove.org

See you next week for episode 30: Scene Core Events!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 29 Transcript:

Character Consistency, Depth, & Uniqueness

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 29 of the weekly Story Savvy series where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have want wanted to.

We have covered a bunch in this series so far, including the last two episodes on fantasy and romance as our only two genre specific installments of this series.

Today we are going to take a look at character consistency, depth and uniqueness in even more detail than we already have in earlier episodes. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully feel confident defining who your characters are internally, checking them for issues to fix and making sure that they aren't falling flat. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host Agnes Wolfe. Welcome.

Agnes Wolfe : Hi. I'm an aspiring fantasy author who is hoping to release her book later next year and also the host and founder of Author's Alcove. I'm here today to tackle the topic of making sure our characters are multi-dimensional and true to themselves.

I feel like a very good starting point would be to talk about character consistency when self-editing. How can we make sure that our characters acting in alignment with who they are and how we intended them to be throughout our story?

Rebecca: If you haven't yet, write out some character statements for the main players. For example, that could be something like, “Kate is a bit shy at first, but very talkative once she gets comfortable. She tends to just shut down in emergencies and feels guilty about it later and is anxious and guilty in general. She is open to new experiences but will rarely give things a second chance if she didn't like it the first time. And she is honest in general but tells a lot of white lies to try to keep the peace.”

These statements can be as long (within reason) or short and as vague or specific as you want, so long as everything you are including in these statements feels relevant to understanding, designing and using the character in the story.

And I will just mention again something that I have mentioned before in a previous episode, which is that fictional characters cannot be as complex as real human beings. There is a balance to be struck between a fictional character feeling flat and like you are trying to do too much with their complexity. So, use that discretion when designing or executing these characters.

As you are creating or reviewing these character statements, do a mental assessment of where you remember showing proof of that trait in the story or where you think you might be contradicting yourself.

Beyond that, you really need to do a read through for this one. And as always, I suggest having a couple of things to keep an eye on with each read through to save yourself time. So, for example, if you want to do your next read based on this episode and then the next two, so scene core events and avoiding scene stagnation, that might be a good balance of; enough to watch for that you're not wasting your time, but also not so much that you're struggling to keep track of everything you're supposed to be watching for.

When you are doing your read for character consistency, refer back to your statements about how you wanted them to be regularly. And check every mentionable moment of agency from that character against that statement. When they move the story forward, is it in a manner that aligns with their character statement? If you find something that is off in that regard, just try tweaking how you describe how they feel, how they express themselves or act, and other subtle things like that to better align with what you were going for.

Agnes: So, you know, I found it very interesting that you were saying that our characters should not be as complex as humans because you often think you want to make it as real as possible. So that was good to think about. Then I realized like, the association with like the consistency.

So, I'm just going to come out and ask, like, why does character consistency matter and why is it worth all that effort?

Rebecca: Consistency allows the reader to trust the character, the story that that character is playing out, and you as the author writing it. Without consistency, the character and writing in general can come across as unfinished, amateur, lacking in quality or craft, or simply end up confusing the reader and the, you know, the audience in general the same way a plot hole might. I go into more detail on this to some extent in episode 19, so go back to that if you, if you want to.

Agnes: So, I feel like as our characters grow, it might be easy to write a way that causes the reader to feel like our character is acting inconsistently, especially when we're trying to show that growth. How can we make sure that we are showing true character growth and not just breaking from the mold that we have written them in?

Rebecca: Again, I'm going to refer you back to episode 19. The simple answer is that you show progressive steps in that direction of growth rather than risking a leap in it in that too. Some doubling down on their old self or their old ways or backsliding in their growth when something happens or is learned that they can reach react to in that way can also help show that they are changing in realistic and understandable ways.

Something else to consider here is that you can only take a character arc so far from its starting point unless you are an expert, experienced writer. So, adjusting that starting point of their character arc up to be in closer proximity to your desired end goal is another option to explore there.

Agnes: So, I know like myself I have a Scribe and then I also have on Excel a bunch of character sheets. You know, I use my Scribe to… that one mainly says stuff like the very nitty gritty from like what personality types I've described them I use. I will actually put even like scenes in there to remind myself. But in Excel I tend to do a little bit more like the really quick looking like things. So, if I would just want to do a quick reference like “how old is this person?” That's what I usually keep in there.

So how do you personally as a writer make sure that your characters do not change from one page to the next? I shared a little bit about how I try to, but have there been methods you might not use, but that you have heard are very effective for other people?

Rebecca: Again, having those statements for who you intended them to be written out and somewhere that you can easily reference them is very, very important.

When you do your read throughs, checking if they were what you intended once written, that will naturally check for consistency from scene to scene as an outlier in one of those aspects is going to be an outlier in the other. You only need to do that process once, essentially.

I don't have any particular tips or processes here, but another thing to watch for on this is just checking that their reactions to things are always proportional to the cause or have an explanation for why they aren't.

If your character, for example, reacts to getting dumped by their boyfriend of two weeks like their spouse of 30 years just died, then that can go in three different directions as an overreaction. First, you can have them wildly overreact to everything across the board, not just this one thing, and that becomes a consistent part of their character build. The second option here would be to dial down the reaction until it fits their more standard or relatable level of reactivity. And then third, you can foreshadow and seed some tangible, understandable reasons why their reaction is so big to something seemingly so small. Such as, in this case, that this is someone who they have obsessed over for years and they finally asked them out and now they're dumping them two weeks later when this person was already shopping wedding venues, and so that elicits that big reaction. Or you could foreshadow that this reactive character has just had the week and the day from hell, and this was simply the last straw that broke them over that edge.

Does that answer your question?

Agnes: Yeah, it definitely does. One of the reasons why I'm excited for this particular episode is because I knew, like, even when I sent you my particular story, I knew one of my—my actual main character—I knew she was somewhat flat. But it was also one of those things where I wasn't ready to, like, edit it, and so I just sent it to you.

And of course I was not at all surprised when it came back that you felt that she was a little flat, a little two dimensional.

What exactly does it mean if a character lacks depth? And why is it a problem? And just going off of what you said earlier, how complex is too complex?

Rebecca: Sure. In my experience, flatness is most often a lack of emotion, a lack of tone in how they express themselves, and/or a lack of quirks or definable character traits. It can sometimes also be a lack of presence or function in the story when compared to how much you tell the reader they matter, but we're going to set that one aside for now.

Flatness is a problem because it can significantly lessen the experience of immersion or investment for the reader. We as humans are wired to pay more attention to things that are unusual, or very relatable, or unique in a way that we want to go figure out. When you essentially give them just a name, maybe a role/title and a brief visual description, and nothing else about the character to hold that reader's attention, it can be hard for the reader to stay focused on what the character is doing or saying.

On the other side of that, when you try to make a character too dynamic, multidimensional, or interesting, it can fall into a different set of problems. It can seem like you never really decided what you wanted to do with the character or who/what you wanted them to be, so you tried for all of them at once. It can seem like the character is insane or immature or unstable because their reactions and moods are all over the place in the name of complexity. Or it can come across like you, the author, don't know who they are, so, how is the reader expected to?

This is what I mean when I say that fictional characters can't be as complex as the real humans. Not speaking to you directly, Agnes, but to the listener hearing this who needs this advice: do you think that you could accurately show or tell a stranger all about you in all of your real human complexity and nuance in a way that they could truly understand, and without boring them? Do you think that you could pull that off?

For me, at least, I know that the answer is no, and I expect that it is for most people. It takes years of frequent, in-depth, meaningful interaction to know another real human being even just pretty well.

You typically have no more than 100,000 words in a novel, and you really ought to be spending at least 95% of those on things that are happening, not info dump about your character’s personality. So, picking a happy medium between not giving your character enough personality, interest, and depth, and giving them too much to reasonably handle within this medium, is always the goal.

Agnes: So how can we spot if our characters are flat? Like I know myself, I just had a gut feeling, and part of it was because I just knew that not enough was going on with her internally, but at the same time I wasn't sure how to fix it.

So, I guess that's a two-part question. How can we know that our characters are flat—because I'm sure that there's going to be a time when I'm going to have a flat character that I'm totally unaware of. And then the second part of that question is how can we avoid or fix it? And that one's probably more applicable to me as I'm working on my editing.

Rebecca: Sure. First of all, I'm going to take this opportunity to state the obvious, which is: not all characters need to be three dimensional!

Your protagonist and antagonist need to be absolutely three dimensional—or, you know, plural if you have multiple protagonists, multiple antagonists. They absolutely need some dimensionality to them.

For your secondary characters, which for today I will define as anyone who has speaking lines in more than three scenes or chapters, they should ideally have some depth to them, but it isn't nearly as crucial. And then tertiary characters, if you haven't been able to avoid including them at all, should be as flat as possible. Just to spare your reader investing in something that isn't going to have any payoff to it.

There are some exceptions to this, but generally (and dependent on genre) you don't want to waste your time or the reader's time trying to make the doorman whose only role in the story is to open doors complex and well-rounded as a character. Spend those words where they actually matter.

One easy check for flatness is to look at how similar the character that you are assessing is to other characters in the story and how close they are to a common generalized trope of their demographics. If you have a character, for example, who is a white American man in his mid-40s, and you stuck him in a room with 50 other men who match that description I just gave, how would you pick him out of a lineup?

Or, more on the internal side, if he went on a dating show where the other contestants couldn't see all of these white American men in their mid-40s, how would he set his personality apart? How would he show who he is internally that would make him different from the 50 other contestants?

Another way to check is going back to those core character statements. Is your statement for this character one sentence? That might be too little to give the character depth. And if/when you have more to give them than that in their statements, can you point to at least one place in the story where that trait is shown, where it comes up, where it is relevant?

If you can, you're probably doing okay. If you have multiple statements and they all get shown, that's what depth is. And if not, just sit with each of the traits that you can come up with for this character for a moment. Think about the story and try to find a moment where it would be very natural for you to show—again, rather than telling, ideally—that trait in a sentence or two, just sneaking that in.

Some other ways to fix a flat character include:

Number 1: make them talk exactly like someone you know in real life or a TV character that you are familiar with. Though in this one I warn you that subtlety can be important, so gauge that against your genre and the tone that you're going for.

Suggestion number 2 would be: give them a motion-related tic that is unique to them within the scope of your book. A limp, a squint, frequent itches, an abhorrence of eye contact, a little head tilt, a swagger, things like that.

Suggestion 3 would be: pick an emotion or a sub-aspect of your theme for them to personify. Make them the living embodiment of anxiety, or optimism, or organization (all within reason). Then, like I said, dial it back to where it feels realistic and subtle enough to be seamlessly included in the overall story. and apply those changes or moments to your manuscript.

Or, related to that, you can choose that character to make the opposite choices of your protagonist when it comes to that theme. And you can decide for yourself on the back end in their statement; “the reason that they're making these different choices is because of a little difference in their mindset or their emotional background, their practical background.” You don't have to tell the reader that though. Just know that that's where it's coming from and that will make it a lot easier for yourself. But then show how those right or wrong choices, that exploration of that subtopic of the theme, is working out for this character as sort of a background flavor on things.

And then lastly in these suggestions for making them more dimensional: give them more agency. This is by far the most applicable with the protagonist, but it can apply to secondary characters if you really need it to. Basically, make them initiate more of the plot actions, force more decisions onto them, have more people come to them for guidance, help, advice, things like that. Force them to be the first to react to news, unexpected events, or the actions of others. Make them bring up difficult topics or put themselves on the line in some way. Force them to act the part of the main character more, staying true to your character build statements, and it can add an amazing amount of depth. Because you're simply creating more opportunities for that depth and complexity to be relevant. And from what I can remember, this was the step that I thought could benefit your story and your protagonist the most.

Agnes: One of the things that stuck out to me that you said—this actually does not even pertain to my protagonist—but something that I thought about some of my other characters is how you stated that we should think of emotion-type description. And like, that didn't even really occur to me, like, to do that. And I know that I tend to lack on more of the visual stuff. So, for me that's like an excellent way. And also, it's a better way of describing them than just being like, “they had brown pants on,” or something like that. So, I just really loved that particular piece of advice.

So, one of the things that I think about, and I think it's especially because of the genre that I particularly write in, is: I know there are certain expectations and tropes and clichés that are very common among certain genres. And especially like with middle grade, there's definitely—like, you think of Harry Potter. There's—you can think of many different Dumbledore characters. You can think of many Hagrid-type characters.

And I noticed that I had some of those tropey-type characters in my own book. But how can we make sure that our characters are authentic to our story and not too much just like the tropes and the clichés that are in every other [example] of our particular genre?

Rebecca: Yeah, all genres have obligatory characters or roles. To use an example that you just brought up, let's talk about the mentor figure from the Hero's Journey, which applies to so many different genres and particularly the ones that I'm familiar with.

The cliché is that he's a wise old man, often with some family connection to the protagonist, but not usually an actual relative. And then some common tropes in addition to that would be that he's a wizard and he has a white beard, and he dresses in robes and he's kind of a loner until or unless the protagonist is doing something with him. I just described—

Agnes: Dumbledore.

Rebecca: Dumbledore. Thank you. I was blanking on the name. Dumbledore. And Gandalf. And Obi-Wan Kenobi. And who knows how many others.

The thing is, none of those cliché elements or trope aspects have anything to do with the character's ability to be a mentor to the protagonist, so none of those aspects are obligatory. The obligatory aspect is that the protagonist has someone to talk to who knows more than they do and is willing to help, and teach, and guide as needed for that specific story.

There is no reason that the Hero's Journey mentor archetype can't be a non-binary ogre who got kicked out of his tribe for being too fashion obsessed and now lives with several thousand brownies as their protector. That mentor could be a journal written by the protagonist's dead mother decades ago, which they now flip through and read relevant passages from as a form of self-advice, self-therapy, from these passages that their mother wrote and gave them which can't really connect until the protagonist is in that moment of need where, “Oh, that makes sense now, I can interpret it this way,” kind of thing.

Essentially, how you make sure that you aren't too cliché with certain character choices—if you don't want to be (and again, I'm not that anti-cliché!)—is that you brainstorm small changes to that role, relationship, identity, demographics, attitudes, desires, how they came by their expertise, and things like that until you feel satisfied.

This is why I keep encouraging folks to interpret obligatory aspects of their genre or general story craft as loosely as they can, or as loosely as they want to. Yes, there needs to be a villain/mentor/rival/murderer to get caught/whatever, in specific genres. But the requirement is the essential role that they play in the plot. Not the size, shape, color, gender, etc., of the character serving that role.

Agnes: One of the things that I remember I did in my very first edits—and I still have to like refine and work on this, so it's not like perfect or anything—is I wanted to try to make that each—well, not each of my characters, but like specific characters—I wanted to make sure they had very unique character personality traits, tones… just very unique, so that they would stand out.

What are some things that we should consider as we are creating these unique voices for our characters?

Rebecca: I do remember that. First, and this isn't specific to your book, but in general: use contractions, people, please. I'm not sure I can personally explain why, but all of your characters sounding kind of the same when they're speaking naturally with contractions is a lot less noticeable than a bunch of characters all sounding like formal British butlers. It's a thing, especially in fantasy.

Second, add a line to their character statement about how they talk, and tweak things to fit that as you are doing your next read-through to check things. That might be about their educational background, or about where they're from, or if their priority is sounding cool or avoiding ever being misunderstood, which is what I personally am.

Third piece of advice for this difference in how characters sound would be: make sure that each character has a slightly different motivation in play and stick to that when they are speaking or writing. For example, one character might be trying to get everyone to get along. One might always be angling to get the most out of a situation as selfishly as they can, every day, every single time they have a conversation. And then a third might be permanently confused about everything, but they are trying to sound like they aren't.

And all of these different aspects are going to affect what the character chooses to say, how they word their thoughts, all of these different aspects. Their tone, their willingness to admit that they're wrong, their willingness to ask questions, all of these different things. And all of those different aspects are going to help keep each of them distinct.

Agnes: So, one of the things I remember when I was doing some beta reading for someone is: I had so much trouble telling the difference between two characters. And it was because the spelling of their names were very, very different. But when I said them in my head, they sounded very similar, and I would get them confused even though they were very different characters. Very different everything. But for some reason, because the names were so close in sound, I struggle to tell them apart.

So, aside from names, are there other things that we should be concerned of when writing characters to make sure they will not be confused with one another?

Rebecca: Yeah, we are going to do two whole episodes on names and other issues like that in the third module of this series [correction, those episodes will be in the 4th and final module of this series], which we are almost there for. Some other things to consider are roles, titles, descriptions, and relationships to each other.

With roles, you need to remember that readers are going to remember who characters are based on the role that they play even more than the name. So, if you have more than one character a reader might think of as ‘the king’ or ‘the best friend’ or ‘the coworker’ then it might be worth adjusting those roles so that each is a little bit more unique to the story.

Pretty much the same note for titles. If there are multiple lords or sirs or moms in the story, might want to adjust those to each be a little bit unique to themselves.

For descriptions, it's mostly about making your characters visually distinct or being unique in what you describe about each character.

For example, even if you have a, you know, a female main character who is meeting the three brother love interests who you describe as all looking remarkably similar, you still need to choose something unique for each, which you will use as a descriptor more often than what they have in common.

And this might be: one of them is the one who is always scowling. Another one is the tallest of the three. And the other is the one who has tattoos peeking out of the collar of his shirt. They all can be dark-haired, same haircut. They can all be relatively tall. They can all have the same facial structure and eye color. But you need to choose to more often mention what they have different than what they have in common.

Related to that, if you have two female characters with red hair, I personally suggest that you avoid using the phrase “the red-haired woman did XYZ” without also adding a descriptor that is unique to the one that you're talking about.

And then lastly, relationships can cause confusion. I already mentioned coworkers and moms, but it's not just limited to relationships to the protagonist which they are aware of within the story. This applies to any situation where the reader might have to think, “Wait, which one are they talking about?” if they come back to the book after setting it aside for however long. Which bully is being referred to? Or which teacher, which rival, which antagonist, which boss, which friend, anything like that. Just differentiate them however you can. And try to mention what makes them unique more often than you mention the shared relationship to the main character. So instead of saying, “Well, this boss did this and this boss did that,” instead say, “Well, my manager did this, and the CEO did that.” That's going to help differentiate a lot.

Agnes: That makes a lot of sense. I do have one last question, and I'm surprised that I haven't asked this already because I usually like to ask this earlier on, but what is the most common mistake you see writers making when they're trying to make a character distinct.

Rebecca: Probably making them comically extreme in whatever trait is used to give them depth or make them unique. This is far and away the biggest issue that I've seen trying to give characters depth. If you're writing comedy of any genre, by all means lean into it. That can be a great way to add comedy to every single page. However, I too often see this happening in more serious books or more serious genres where it just does not land.

This is why I mentioned subtlety several times in this episode. If you want to make your character, for example, generally more nervous, do so in a way where it's more background shading on who they arem and how they existm and how they choose to take actions and ask questions, or in their posture, subtle things, rather than making them constantly shaking or telling people how anxious they are all the time or biting their fingernails down to the quick.

Anything that you can picture a Looney Tunes character doing is probably overdoing it. Keep it grounded, keep it relevant, and like I mentioned earlier, only add depth to characters whose involvement in the story warrants that depth.

Agnes: Thank you so much. I really appreciated this because as you were talking, the wheels were like spinning in my head, and I am like, “okay, I want to get into my book because I have a few changes I want to make.” So that means that you did an excellent job. Thank you very much.

Rebecca: You are entirely welcome. And yeah, next week we will finally get to what I personally think is the most important episode of this entire series: Scene Core Events! And that will start off the third layer of this series, where we're getting into just scene-specific topics.

For now, I really want to thank everyone for following along with this series. We would really appreciate it if you could help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Author's Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series.

Agnes : I can't wait to chat with you then. Thank you. See you then.

See you next time!

Romances & Love Stories: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 28

Tue, 15 Jul 2025 14:37:50 GMT

Romances & Love Stories: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript...

Both love stories and romances can absolutely be any gender mix, and I love editing LGBTQIA+ romances! I just tend to default to heteronormative terminology as it’s the majority of what I read.

Some previous episodes which were referenced or may be helpful to revisit with this one include Episode 1: Starting With Target Audience , Episode 2: Understanding Genre Expectations , and Episode 25: Subplots & Plot Threads .

Explicit language warning for the full transcript below.

Happy editing!

Episode 28 Overview:

Romances & Love Stories

"If I’m writing romance, either as my main plot or a subplot, am I hitting all of the major expectations, beats, or requirements I need to in order to satisfy those genre readers?"

In this fantasy writing series , Rebecca offers developmental editing tips on writing a fantasy romance novel with a focus on character development in romance and genre expectations in romance. So, if you are looking for romance novel writing tips or fantasy book writing advice, this episode is for you.

In Episode 28 of the Story Savvy Self-Editing series, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring fantasy author Agnes Wolfe dive into the differences between a true romance and a love story. They unpack what emotional beats a romance must hit, how subplots can support or distract from a main plot, and what tropes are fair game. –SPOILER ALERT– all of them are!

Rebecca, who specializes in romance as both a writer and editor, shares her own beat sheet for romance, as well as common mistakes writers make. She also shares how to strike the right balance in standalones versus series arcs, how genre expectations shift based on whether the romance is central or secondary, and why understanding your audience is more important than avoiding tropes.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

The difference between a romance and a love story

Some key beats every satisfying romance should include

How to avoid common romance writing mistakes

What happens when romance is the subplot, not the main plot

Tips for balancing romance in standalone and series structures

Why genre expectations and reader payoff matter more than avoiding tropes

Recommended Resources:

Book: Romancing the Beat by Gwen Hayes: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29954217-romancing-the-beat

Book: The Love Story Guide from Story Grid. Unfortunately, this seems to be the only (legal) way to obtain it as of now: https://store.storygrid.com/product/love-and-action-genre-masterclass-story-grid-ebook/

Author’s Alcove Membership: www.authorsalcove.com

Fantasy Book Giveaway: www. AuthorsAlcove.org

See you next week for episode 29: Character Consistency, Depth, & Uniqueness

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 28 Transcript:

Romances & Love Stories

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello, and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is Episode 28 of the Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author ask me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to.

We have covered a bunch in this series so far, including last week’s episode, where we went over magic systems and fantasy.

Today, we are going to do the second of these two genre-specific episodes and talk about romance and love stories. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully feel confident identifying what romance requirements you are nailing or missing and know the difference between a love story and a true romance.

Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolfe. Hello!

Agnes Wolfe: Hi! I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later next year, and also host and founder of Authors’ Alcove.

I'm here today to tackle the topic of romance and how to nail it as a main plot or subplot.

So first off, like, romance is a pretty broad genre. For instance, what a middle grade romance writer is going to write is totally different than *smut* or your niche, like the spicy romantic fantasy as its own genre. Are there certain guidelines you would say per age group or subgenre? Do we need to approach this differently depending on the age, the genre, or what other factors should we consider?

Rebecca: Absolutely. And if you want to include romance in your story, that is a very important aspect to pay attention to when you're doing your genre research and reading—as we've talked about throughout this process.

So just as one example of this: the spice level needs to be different for different romance subgenres. For middle grade, YA, or sweet romance, that spice level needs to be zero. Absolutely nothing. It all has to be closed door, fade to black, never even mention it. Whatever the case may be.

Then on the other end of that spectrum, erotica must have lots of steam and spice. It doesn't count as that genre without it.

And then even for the in-between genres, there’s always going to be a bell curve around how much spice is expected. And knowing where you want to fall on that curve, as well as where you actually fall on that curve, can be important in the self-editing process.

For example:

Dark romance skews towards very high spice
Romantic fantasy skews pretty mid-range
And then historical tends to skew towards the low end.

But all of those have a wider range of what readers will go for and feel satisfied by than the subgenres at either end of that spectrum.

Agnes: I know myself—like, I love fantasy, but I'm not a huge... I'm definitely not a smut person. And we’ve always talked about this before, like, I’m more of a prude. And so, I actually will purposely pick up young adult more often than adult because I know that the spice level is a little bit less. And so, I think that’s... that’s knowing your audience. And there’s a reason people pick up the ones that they do well.

Anyway, I know there's also certain expectations in a romance, regardless of what age group you're writing.

What are some of the beats that are absolutely expected for someone writing in this genre, regardless of age, smut level, all of that?

Rebecca: All of that. First of all, let me start off with an important distinction here between love stories and romances. A love story is what it says on the tin. It is any story about love. Be that falling in love, be that romantic obsession, or navigating a marriage that starts to fall apart after the kids are grown up, or even tragic love stories like Romeo and Juliet or Brokeback Mountain. Those are all love stories.

They have a nearly infinite range and variety, and you can do pretty much whatever you want to with them, including how you want to end them, what emotional payoff you want to deliver, and what emotions you want the reader to explore with your characters throughout.

If you watched Episode 9 [correction: 19] of this series, you may have noticed that Sue Mills, the guest host author that I had on for that episode, carefully described her novels as love stories, not romances, because they don't meet all of the requirements of a romance.

This is because romances specifically have a much narrower definition and many more requirements in order to nail them. The reason for this is that over time, the specific formula of a romance has proven to be the most popular form of a love story by a long shot. And these specific moments, conventions, emotions, and payoffs are why.

However, I do really want to impress a big point on our listeners here before I do a (as quick as I can) rundown on my personal romance beat sheet kind of highlights. And that point is: you should always interpret these beats and requirements as loosely and creatively as you can. The point is not to just make sure that you can cross something off a list, but to find interesting, impactful, inventive, unique, and memorable ways to do so.

For example, the very first romance beat on my shortlist here is the Meet Cute. Everyone has heard of the Meet Cute, especially if you're writing in romance. This can be done in a hundred super cliché ways—and, you know, cliché isn't always bad—but I do encourage folks to think outside the box.

Instead of bumping into each other at a coffee shop, what if it's at a class or a venue that one of them is deeply embarrassed to be seen at? What if someone else bumps into the female main character and the male main character has to step in and scare off this creep? What if the FMC was at the end of her rope, emotionally speaking, and the meet cute turns into her bawling her eyes out in public over the spilled coffee while the MMC is trying to comfort her?

There are lots of ways that this could go, even within the tamest, most cliché, formulaic romance subgenres out there like contemporary or small town, where you don't have a lot like magic or historical context to work with.

So, having given that caveat and that little example, here are some of the highlight romance beats. This is far from a comprehensive list, but I just want to give listeners an idea.

After the meet-cute, there should be some moments of growing attraction between the two people.

Then they should agree to engage with each other in some ongoing way. And if there's an external force pushing them together or forcing them to keep interacting, that's even better.

The midpoint shift in a romance is often a breakup between the lovers, or an event which breaks the rose-colored glasses in some way so that it eventually builds into a breakup a little bit further down the road. And just to be clear, the breakup can also be a distancing. It can also be a calling off of plans. It doesn't have to literally be, "We were dating and now I'm breaking up with you." Again, please interpret things loosely.

So, moving into the second half, this is where the lovers need to do their introspection, take accountability for their flaws, and start working towards bettering themselves in some way.

The next big beat needs to be the Grand Gesture or Proof of Love—Part One. This is often the lesser proof, and it is often not the big climax action that we'll get to in a minute. The important part here is that the protagonist—which is usually the female main character, if you're writing heterosexual standard romance—then that protagonist needs to prove that they have changed enough to earn the later, bigger proof of love from the secondary lover, and to show concretely that they want to make amends and have a second chance with this other person. Even if they don't get it yet.

After that, this is often where the subplot or the external plot gets resolved—especially, especially if the romance is the main plot and you have a subplot that's running [parallel].

Finally, and into this final act: here, you have a run of the beats that most people think of when they think of romance beats.

First, you have a Turning Point. This can be an internal change in perspective or goals. It can be a revelation from the other lover, or from a secondary character, or whatever else is needed to end the belief that exists that they can never work together long term, and give them some new hope. In A Heart of Flame, which you mentioned earlier—if anyone has read that—I chose to make that moment in my first book my main male character apologizing (well!) for his previously flawed perspective, and my female main character having a major breakdown which rekindles some emotional honesty between them. That's that turning point where they go from, "We're not speaking to each other," to, "Okay, we need to—we need to figure some stuff out here."

Next is the most important beat, in my opinion: the Grand Gesture/Proof of Love from the second lover. This is the big moment where the people in the movie theater pull out their tissues to happy cry, kind of thing. This is also the romance beat I most often find issues and flaws in when I'm editing.

So here are a couple of aspects around this beat to check in your own work.

First, it must include an element of sacrifice on the side of the person making the gesture. They need to risk their social standing or decline the promotion or otherwise lose or risk whatever it is that feels appropriate to be at stake in your genre and your book specifically.

Second to this beat: it must be done selflessly and without expecting anything in return. This requirement is a little bit less strict than the other one, but I still really encourage writers to try to learn from Mr. Darcy, the OG proof-of-love guy, where he saves Elizabeth's younger sister from being taken advantage of and saves her whole family from social ruin by bribing Mr. Wickham into marrying her. And in doing that, he asks that younger sister to keep his involvement a secret. He doesn't do it to show off and get Elizabeth to fall in love with him. He does it because he loves Elizabeth and wants her to be happy, even if it's not with him. If you can pull off that aspect of not expecting anything in return in your own story, that is going to pay off so well for your readers. It will increase your romantic payoff enormously.

And then the third point here—I won’t say requirement, but point—on this beat is that the proof of love has to be received well by the protagonist. This might seem kind of obvious to romance writers, but it can still ruin the romance if it doesn’t come across the right way. And I have seen that.

So, lastly, on this list of beats: the romance must end with a Happily Ever After or a Happily For Now. Without one of those, even if you hit all of the other beats, you do not have a romance. You just have a love story.

So, for added clarity, the reader doesn’t need to know if it’s a Happily Ever After or a Happily For Now. Both should be presented as, “We do not intend to break up for the foreseeable future.” The only way that you should attempt communicating that it really is Ever After and not For Now would be with an epilogue where they’re both very old and still together, which I only recommend doing if you have an exceptionally strong reason to do so.

There are a ton of other beats that I could mention in this list, and that’s not even getting into the conventions and obligatory moments and anything like that. But hopefully, this will give everyone a decent starting point and prepare you mentally for when you do go look up those full lists.

Agnes: So, just to clarify: so a romance has to hit all of these beats, but a love story just has to involve love. It doesn't necessarily have to hit beats. Is that correct?

Rebecca: Yes, absolutely. And the most important beat to hit for it to count as a romance is: it has to have a happy ending.

Agnes: Okay, so like, you know, with mine, there is going to be a love story in there, but it's definitely not a romance because it's going to happen over a series, and it’s not going to hit those beats. It’s going to be just kind of a friendship that turns into something more. So that would be a love story, not a romance. Correct?

Rebecca: If you want to go in that direction, you can. If I end up editing the rest of your series for you, you might be surprised how many beats you can actually hit across the series without even meaning to. Because again, I encourage everyone to interpret these requirements very creatively.

Agnes: You know what? I think I even, like, as you're saying that, I'm like thinking about it. I'm like, okay, actually, there will be. It's just not necessarily in one particular book.

Rebecca: Yes.

Agnes: Anyway, so where could we find a really comprehensive list of all the requirements of a solid, true romance? Is there something out there like that?

Rebecca: All over the place, frankly. You can find lots of resources online about the obligatory romance beats to satisfy this very picky genre. And no two will be exactly the same, so pick some favorites.

Two of my personal favorite recommendations are, first of all, a very short and quirky book called Romancing the Beat by Gwen Hayes—yes.

And then second is The Love Story Guide from Story Grid, which unfortunately is difficult and expensive to get your hands on legally since they stopped offering that masterclass. But I will still link both of those resources in the show notes.

Agnes: Awesome. So how can we know if we hit the major emotional moments for romance specifically?

Rebecca: This is so important. Hitting them is what will get readers loving and remembering your book. And missing them, even by what may seem like very little, can taint the whole story and make your readers feel frustrated or disappointed.

In self-editing, you are a little bit limited in how well you can check if you're nailing those emotional moments. Using a romance beat sheet, however, bare basics or in-depth, whatever works for you as an individual, is a great starting point.

You can also go through and make sure that the big emotional moments and your nonverbal communication, your demonstrated actions and choices, dialogue, and all of the other layers are layered correctly, and that your lovers are coming across in a way that isn't self-contradictory in the romance moments.

Beyond that, you really need outside perspective, which is why I always recommend finding feedback readers familiar with your genre. It doesn't matter if those are alpha readers, beta readers, critique partners, or a developmental editor.

Agnes: So what are some of the most common mistakes that you see as a developmental editor that writers make when trying to craft a romance?

Rebecca: A couple of things come to mind.

Number one is not delivering a clear climax, proof of love, or happily ever after/happily for now. You need to have a clear ending where you can look at it and go, “Yep, they're together now, and they're going to stay that way.”

Number two is the author doesn't provide a rival or a ‘harmer’ [opposite of a helper to the romance] or any other force of antagonism to be contended with by the lovers.

Third point is… yeah, where the author does a great job of building up a love triangle or a rival for the FMC or the protagonist to choose between—with the MMC or the secondary lover—to the point where readers think that the protagonist should have chosen differently. Obviously, reverse harem [or harem, why-choose, polyam, etc.] is an exception to this, where they don't have to choose, they can take both, but I have read and edited a couple of romances where I felt disappointed that the protagonist chose the lover that they did. And you don't really want that with your novels.

Mistake number four is when an author is trying to get by with a grand gesture proof of love that feels lacking in any sense of sacrifice or is only done to try to get the other person back, with no layer of it just being the right thing to do for the sake of it.

Mistake five is never introducing flaws in the lovers for them to overcome to eventually earn being together. You have to have that sense of, “Well, I didn't believe in love,” or, “I was too selfish.” And it's the act of overcoming that flaw that makes the happily ever after or the happily for now with the other person feel earned and deserved and have a good payoff.

I’ve forgot what number we're up to, but another mistake that I've seen often is presenting the book as a romance when the romance is actually clearly a subplot to a different plot that dominates the story. In which case I refer listeners back to Episode 25 on this topic.

And then lastly, the mistake is that the romance isn't built up gradually and consistently enough for the milestones, be they positive or negative, to feel grounded, believable, and worth being emotionally invested in. There should be some process in the romance at every scene, some progress toward that end goal, even if it's roughly that idea of two steps forward, one step back.

Agnes: So, something that crossed my mind when you were talking is actually Sarah J. Maas with ACOTAR.

And when you were saying that, you know, there's usually like a rival—sometimes it’s a person, sometimes it's just an antagonism—but she actually switched who her lover is in the first one and the second one. But she did a really good job of making you want the person in each of those books to be the person she ended with. And I just thought of that, you know? Like, that’s a really good example of somebody who chose to do that, but they chose to do it in a series—have different ones. And yet, you still rooted for who you were supposed to root for in each individual book. And I just thought that was a good example.

Rebecca: Absolutely. And it's also a great example of innovating and creatively interpreting these requirements.

Agnes: So, I know that romance is not always the main plot, as you’ve pointed out. Sometimes it's a subplot.

Like, I remember someone saying that romantasy is when the romance is stronger than the fantasy, and romantic fantasy is when the fantasy is stronger. That is the right way, correct?

Rebecca: Yeah.

Agnes: Okay. Is yours a romantasy or romantic fantasy, would you consider?

Rebecca: Romantic fantasy. My fantasy action plot is definitely the stronger of the two, and then the romance kind of underwrites that.

Agnes: That was what I interpreted it as, but I was curious as you—as the author. And so that’s probably a good thing that we're both on the same page, because we both have... and like, that’s probably why I enjoy that one so much, is because for me, romance always comes second. Like, I do not pick up a romantic romance, but I like a romantic story. I just prefer the fantasy, the imagination.

Which, by the way guys, she has an incredible magic system. Really recommend her book. I know. I do that all the time.

Anyway, so what I was asking: is there a difference in how you should handle the romance when it’s a main plot or a subplot?

Rebecca: Yes. And I wish that these terminologies were a little bit less confusing.

So, you are correct that romantasy is essentially the same thing as fantasy romance, where the fantasy is the flavoring on a romance plot. And then you have romantic fantasy, where the romance is flavoring on a fantasy plot—which is usually, you know, heroic journey, action. A fantasy, as we talked about in the genre episodes, is only the setting. So, you can have a murder mystery fantasy, you can have a rebellion fantasy. But that plot is usually more strongly represented or more important to how the story plays out than the romance is in romantic fantasy.

And then moving on from that: yes, there is very much a difference worth paying attention to around the different expectations when the romance is the main plot or the subplot.

When it’s the main plot, it needs to take precedent over any subplots. Essentially, in order for a great payoff, any and all of the subplots need to only happen because of the romance, or the outcome of them needs to be decided entirely by the outcome of the romance. The romance always has to come first.

So, if you have a romance story with a, let’s say, a competition subplot, then the competition needs to be won because the romance worked out, like in the movie Strictly Ballroom, which is one of my personal favorites. Or the competition needs to, you know, be sacrificed. That need to win needs to be sacrificed in order for them to win the romance.

However, if you have a competition story as the main plot with a romance subplot, then the opposite needs to be true. The competition plot always needs to come first, and whether the romance is won or lost needs to be an outcome of whether or not the competition was won or lost. The romance then can only be won if the contest is won, or the romance is lost because the protagonist prioritized the competition over the romance. That sort of thing.

Agnes: So, one of the things that I was thinking about when you were saying the difference between main plot and subplot is like your own story: the reason why I was assuming that the fantasy was primary is because I was rooting for Angie as a person, not as Angie and Daniel.

Rebecca: Yes .

Agnes: So, I think that that’s how you can tell the difference. Like, what are you rooting for? Are you rooting for... And so for me, I was rooting for Angie as a person. Like, is she going to... and I can’t say!

Rebecca: No spoilers!

Agnes: But like, I would. And I think that that’s a good idea. Or—that was why I assumed that the romance plot was the subplot in that particular book.

Rebecca: Stakes can be helpful in that too, because in my book as an example, the protagonists both choose stakes other than love with each other as more important than the romance.

Agnes: Oh! Okay. So, if the romance is not the main plot, how can we make sure the romance doesn't distract from the main plot? Because obviously, you did a good job of that—because I was rooting for Angie. Or, in some cases, when do we need to make a shift and realize that maybe we’re actually writing a romance?

Rebecca: I'm mostly going to refer people back to Episode 25 for the second question that you asked there. It comes down to how well you are hitting the expectations for each of your different genre options, what emotions and themes you are exploring and delivering, and all of those aspects we talked about in that episode.

As for the first part of your question there: first of all, you can always just make sure that they are tightly woven together. Make sure that the love interest would still be present, and active, and important even if there was no romance. Make it so that the love interest is important to succeeding in the main plot. And do what you can to explore similar themes through the main plot and the romantic subplot so it doesn't feel like they're at odds.

Another approach might be to adjust your stakes in either plot. Make the stakes of the romance subplot lower and/or the stakes of the external plot higher and/or more important to your protagonist if push comes to shove.

Lastly, make sure that you are hitting the genre expectations for the main plot at least as well as you are for the romance. And if you want to, tally how many chapters, scenes, pages, or paragraphs are dedicated to either the main plot or the subplot and adjust that ratio if you need to do so.

Beyond that, just ask your feedback readers if they feel that it is or was an issue and if they have any suggestions for fixing it in your specific case.

Agnes: So, I think I have a good idea of what you're going to say with the next question I was going to ask—because I was thinking about ACOTAR and how well she did on the first and second book. But I want to talk about series.

So, when writing a series, how satisfying should the romance be at the end of, like, the first book or at the end of the second book? Should that be tied up? Or is it okay to leave some tension between them to entice people for that next book?

Rebecca: It really depends on what kind of series you are writing.

For dynamic series, where it's going to be one romantic couple across the whole series, it's really your call to make. But you do need to have some degree of "someday we will have our happily ever after" in the mix, or a solidly happily for now.

Beyond that, it's really up to you if you want to make it feel solid at the end of an earlier book or end with the romance, on a cliffhanger, or anything in between.

The magic formula that I generally strive for in my own work and have suggested to a couple of clients is to end with a happily for now, even if it's a bittersweet happiness of, "I do want to get back together with you, but not right now." I’ll make sure that I’m also, in that very last chapter or two, showing the internal flaws that both characters are still going to have to overcome and deal with in order for them to actually have long-term compatibility and get to that happily ever after. Until, of course, you get to the last book, and then you want that happily ever after right there, after that much investment from your readers. So that’s a dynamic series.

And then for a standalone series, I suggest treating each book like there won’t be another and giving it a solid enough happily for now/happily ever after that you are delivering the maximum amount of romantic payoff you possibly can. Because that is then going to show your reader that they can expect that same high-quality hit from the other books in that standalone series.

Agnes: So, I know we need to wrap up here, but I did want to ask one last question. And this question makes me think about Hallmark movies and how tropey and cliché they are.

Like, you can literally—my husband, whenever I watch a Hallmark movie, he's never sat down, not once, to a Hallmark movie—but he can tell me the entire storyline just by walking in. He’s like, "Oh, you're watching a Hallmark movie?" And he tells me the storyline. I'm like, "Hey! You ruined it for me!" But I still have to watch it.

But when we're writing our own stories, we're not writing Hallmark stories. So, are there certain clichés or tropes that we should avoid?

Rebecca: The answer might surprise you. My answer is: no.

All that matters is that you know exactly who you are writing to, and exactly what subgenre accurately describes your book.

Some people—that’s you?

Agnes: —Yeah! And that’s—well—and that’s why I can watch every Hallmark movie there ever was and not care about the fact that they're following every trope, every cliché, every moment. And you literally can say exactly what's going to happen. I enjoy that.

Rebecca: And those movies are made for you, not your husband. Because some people will absolutely love every single cliché or trope you see others hating.

Pregnancy, CNC, why-choose, cheating kink, sweet kidnapping, conventionally unattractive monsters, aliens—you name it. All of those may score very unfavorably if you polled all romance readers across all subgenres together.

But there are subgenres and subsections of that audience that go absolutely feral for those tropes and conventions and clichés if you just find the right readers. So, if you need to, go back to Episodes 1 and 2 on this topic and find your audience, your genre, and they will love even the most cliché, tropey shit you could possibly write.

Agnes: I would be very upset if they did not have every cliché and trope in a Hallmark movie. I'd be so disappointed. Like, "That wasn’t even a Hallmark movie!"

Rebecca: Exactly.

Agnes: Well, anyway, thank you so much for your insight. It has helped me so much. Thank you.

Rebecca: You are very welcome. And next week we will go back to pan-genre fiction as much as we can and go over character depth, dimensionality, and consistency, and how to check those aspects in our self-editing.

For now, I will thank all of our listeners who follow along with this series. We would really appreciate it if you could help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Authors' Alcove Podcast, (if you haven’t already!) where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series.

Agnes: Can’t wait to chat again. Thank you.

See you next time!

Magic Systems and Fantasy: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 27

Tue, 08 Jul 2025 23:47:44 GMT

Magic Systems & Fantasy: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript...

Later in this episode, when talking about red flags to watch for, I say "If you have magic in your world and your protagonists have access to it and know about it, they should be using it." This of course has the caveat of "Unless you present a good reason for them not to," be that through cost or downsides, secrecy from other people around them, and the like. Just wanted to clarify that.

Happy editing!

Episode 27 Overview:

Magic Systems & Fantasy

"What kind of magic system do I have? Is it working well? What other fantasy-specific considerations do I need to check?"

In this writing advice podcast , Rebecca offers developmental editing tips on how to write a magic system , what makes a good writer great , and how to edit your book yourself. Agnes Wolfe asks her many questions about writing a unique magic system and gives advice on self-editing for authors .

In episode 27 of the Story Savvy Self-Editing series, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring fantasy author Agnes Wolfe explore magic systems—whether they are hard or soft, how to check for plot holes, and what red flags to look for.

Rebecca explains the importance of having your magic system be central to your main plot, while integrating it seamlessly into the storyline. They cover topics such as avoiding common pitfalls, crafting well-thought-out storylines, and preventing inconsistencies when world building with magic. Then they discuss how these can be refined during the self-editing process.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

~ How to ensure the magic system is integral to the story

~ If your magic system is hard or soft

~ How to prevent inconsistencies and plot holes

~ How to track the rules of your magic system

~ The importance of connecting magic systems to your core themes

~ How to address red flags during the self-editing process

Whether you’re trying to catch plot holes or just want to improve your magic system, this episode will help you achieve your goals.

Recommended Resources:

~ Brandon Sanderson’s articles on soft vs. hard magic systems: https://www.brandonsanderson.com/blogs/blog/sandersons-first-law

~ Episode 4: The Core of the Story, Theme and Message.

~ Episode 19: Plot holes and Character Inconsistencies.

~ Episode 20: Deus Ex Machina.

~ Author’s Alcove Membership: authorsalcove.com

~ Fantasy Book Giveaway: AuthorsAlcove.org

See you next week for episode 28: Romance & Love Stories

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 27 Transcript:

Magic Systems & Fantasy

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello, and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 27 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great, as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to.

We have covered a ton in this series so far, including last week's episode on tying up subplots and the like.

Today, we are going to do a genre-specific episode talking about some fantasy-only considerations. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully feel confident in defining your magic system and tweaking or polishing it as needed, as well as being able to just name some of the core fantasy tropes for marketing your book. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my good friend and co-host Agnes Wolfe. Hello.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi. I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later next year, and also the host and founder of Authors Alcove. I'm here today to tackle the topic of magic systems and fantasy expectations. And as I've mentioned, as I've been mentioning, the summer book giveaway is currently underway. We have this awesome book, Angel of Water and Shadow. I've just started it. It looks really good. I am—well, it is really good from what I've read, but I'm not very far into it. It is new adult.

And then of course, I have to plug Rebecca's book because it is also on the summer book giveaway, A Heart of Flame, and it is phenomenal. Even if you do not go to my book giveaway. So, go to Amazon or wherever and purchase it. It is a good book, and it's a series, so you don't have to say goodbye to Angie—that's the main character—right away anyway. All right.

So, Rebecca, did you realize we are officially more than halfway done with this series?

Rebecca: I had not. Oh my gosh.

Agnes: While we were talking last with the last episode, I was thinking “we are officially halfway, but I never had a chance to say it. So, I had to say it here.

Rebecca: Time flies.

Agnes: So right off the bat, since my primary genre to read is fantasy, this is probably the question I am most passionate about. So, I figure why not start with this one. I, as a reader, not just as a writer, read fantasy because fantasy has magic and I'm in love with magic systems that are so unique to the book and that the magic systems is essentially the book itself. For instance, with one of my favorite series, Fablehaven, the fact that the magic needs to be protected and is otherwise unknown by the outside world is essentially what the book is about and very integral. And then, of course, like in Twilight, if vampires did not live forever and crave drinking blood, there would be no point in the tension between Bella and Edward.

So obviously, to me as a reader, I feel like the single most important thing about a magic system is that our actually needs the magic system. And without the magic system—those words are hard for me. Without the magic system, our story wouldn't be the same. What are some things we need to look at to make sure our magic system is actually a central part of our story? Unless you disagree, and they do not need to be a central part of our story?

Rebecca: I believe you are entirely correct that a good magic system should be more than flavoring, more than a backdrop. Looking at examples that you love for inspiration is a great starting point. And I will toss out a few popular ways to keep that magic system relevant that I often see in fantasy in the hopes that that will help folks who are looking to increase that integration.

Number one is: make the magic secret from the wider world and establish one or more grounded reasons why. And you just gave Fablehaven as an example of that.

Number two would be: make the magic known, but highly illegal or shunned, so that the use of it is always a societal risk.

Number three would be: have the magic come at a high personal cost like energy, so that the tension is with personal sacrifice. Or have the magic come at a high external cost, so that the tension is with resource hoarding or a resource scarcity.

And then number four would be: have the protagonist’s worldview be deeply at odds with the existence of magic as it starts coming into their life. So, the tension then is from that extreme cognitive dissonance and the total reshaping of their lives and their beliefs and their worldview and the discomfort and struggles that come with that.
This is far from an exhaustive list. There are so many other ways that you can do this and combinations of any of these, all of these, can absolutely be used as well.

Agnes: I feel like we could do a whole episode just on those parts alone.

Rebecca: Probably, yeah.

Agnes: So, beyond those points, where should we start when looking at our magic system, especially in our editing process?

Rebecca: All right, so first define for yourself if you have a soft magic system or a hard magic system. You can absolutely Google this and find tons of explanations. My very brief one here is: a soft magic system is one where the magic just sort of is, without any really hard rules or systems or formulas or the like. Nothing is ever really, really tangibly explained. And then on the other side of that, you have a hard magic system where the exact, universally applicable formulas, and spells, and potions, and rules, and sigils are established in detail through the story about exactly how and why magic works and how to use it.

So, defining this difference is important because it gives you a starting point. And deciding that can help you know how much explanation is expected by your readers, or how much whimsy and lack of explanation is going to benefit the story. Brandon Sanderson in particular has some fantastic articles on this that I will link in the show notes for anyone who wants to read up in much more detail on that.

My second piece of advice is: decide what your limitations are. If you really want to try to write a story about omnipotent characters, omniscient characters who can do anything at any time with no real sacrifice to do so, then you can. But I don't recommend it, necessarily. Partly, limitations are a core convention of the fantasy genre. It can also just be hard to make a story like that interesting. Omnipotent characters are harder for readers to relate with because none of us are omnipotent. We all understand struggle and limitations a lot better. You also risk deus ex machina pretty much constantly with an omnipotent character, and it will be hard to get the emotional outpouring or experience or the stakes high at any point. Because if you're omnipotent, you don't have to be invested in these outcomes.

So, I recommend coming up with some limitations, whether that is through the cost, through energy, through what time of day magic works, through what scale power is capable of, a lack of knowledge, or even just arbitrarily establishing something along the lines of, “No, that's not something magic in this world can do, actually.” Sometimes that's what it is. Sometimes that's all it takes.

My third suggestion here is please keep track of what you have decided or established is or isn't possible in your magic system. A lot of the self-editing that I hope folks do from this episode is going to be along the lines of making this statement or list and then going through the book and making sure that there are no deviations that need to be fixed. For example, in my own series I keep a list of the skills that each individual character has, since not everyone can do everything as a rule. And I have a rule for myself within my magic system that all magic, all power, all anything out of reality that happens must come either from auric magic or from demons. And I have a very clear statement for myself limiting what demons can and cannot do.

Fourth in this list is—and this is very, very much related to the last point—never conveniently forget what your magic system's rules are, please. Don't conveniently forget what the costs are or the limitations are. If you find a spot during your self-editing where you did—you know, probably to make it cool or more showy or, on the other side of that, because you needed to make things harder for the protagonist and if they had magic that wouldn't be hard enough—if you establish something and you find a place where you conveniently forgot, be that on either side, then please go in and change how that cool moment happens to better fit within your system, or go back and change how you established your system so that that moment fits.

Fifth and lastly on this list here is: give your readers clear guardrails on the world as well as the magic system, and the magic system as well as the world. Show them exactly what and where the costs and limitations are as early as you can, and ideally by showing those boundaries being bumped into, rather than telling them through an infodump. If you can, try to do this by showing what the reality of the story is, such as the time, so medieval, Renaissance, Victorian, whatever; the place, so rough climate, is it a city, is it country, that kind of stuff; and perhaps even the sociopolitical/economical situation of the protagonist, so are they a prince, are they a pauper, that kind of thing.

And while you are doing that, simultaneously show your magic system being used up to its unique limitations to the outcome of costs that you have decided on. I really wish that I could point you all to the best book I have ever read that does this incredibly well on the first page, but I don't know if the author is ever going to publish it. So, for now I will just say: pick a masterwork in a close subgenre to your own and see how they did it and see if that's any inspiration.

Agnes: So, one of the things that I do is I am a beta reader. I love just reading other people's works, especially before they actually publish. And I also read a lot of self-published books that may have not gone through developmental editors. I'm not sure. So, one of the biggest detractors I have found in books with magic systems specifically is what you know you were referring to as info dumping, where they tell the entire magic system in the first couple of chapters, like you just mentioned. And I think in a way it's intuitive to do that because I know I did that with my first draft, and none of those parts are part of it anymore.

First off, why does this not work?

Rebecca: It doesn't work because telling elements, like details and exposition, are boring, hard to get invested in, and lack momentum. Showing elements, like things happening, being pursued (so chasing a goal), being avoided, being desired, being reacted to through action, being felt and experienced, are all much more interesting, can have riveting momentum, and get readers invested in seeing where things go and how things are going to play out.

This applies to all stories in general, but is definitely something to pay extra attention to in fantasy. As you've mentioned, it also very much applies to magic systems, which we're going to try to keep centered for today (I may or may not deviate, I love this topic) and everything else. Even if you're not writing fantasy, this can still be helpful advice.

My advice is: while coming up with a story concept is often approached from the ground up, where you have one little idea and you slowly build on it and you establish these rules, that's not how you should write it. Don't build your world or magic system from the ground up in your manuscript. Instead, drop the protagonist and the reader in the deep end and immerse them deeply. Open with your protagonist on the run from the magic-hating villagers and on the point of collapsing from using so much of their daily allotment of magic. Or open with your protagonist falling straight up from the top of a mountain and calculating their trajectory to land exactly where they want to on the upside-down world above. Or open with your protagonist, you know, counting their meager coins outside the potion supply shop, feeling intense, deep, meaningful emotions that they can't afford the ingredients to make the magical cure to save their dying parent.

Any option like that, where the magic system is being used and the costs of using it are being felt and an immediate long-term or short-term goal is inherent in the motivation in that moment, and these are all in play, these moments are going to do so much better for your story and your readers than trying to info dump your magic system, your fantasy world, anything else, or trying to build it up one layer at a time.

Agnes : So, if we're not going to info dump, how much and when do we need to explain about our magic system, so we don't bore our reader, but also so that they understand our magic system?

Rebecca: Again, show whenever you can, and I'll repeat my favorite piece of advice on that, which is: explaining something just in time—so in the exact moment where it becomes vitally relevant—is much less likely to feel like info dump than is providing information just in case the reader needs to know it a chapter later, toward the end of the book, whatever the case is, because that's almost always going to come across as info dump.

In short, I suggest shifting your mindset entirely away from the question that you just asked. Away from wondering how to explain your magic system. Instead, think about it as: How can you demonstrate your magic system? Demonstrate over explain, every single time. And to be clear, you should do this as early as possible. But what is “as early as possible” is going to be different depending on the individual book.

For example, the three showing examples that I mentioned a minute ago all assume that the protagonist is an established, experienced—at least to some extent—magic user when the story starts. But if you are instead writing a book where the protagonist is introduced to magic for the first time in the course of the story, then that “earliest possible” chance to demonstrate might be a few chapters in or more. But the first time real magic is told to the protagonist should also ideally be the same moment that magic, real magic, is shown to them, and ideally with emphasis on the latter over the former.

Lastly, on this point, if you feel you still need to do more to help the reader understand your magic system without boring them, use some of these tools or find your own, but these are the ones that I recommend:

First, have the protagonist try something outside the rules. Have them fail because that's outside of the limitations of your magic system, and then have them test to see exactly where those boundaries are through experimentation.

Second suggestion is: have the protagonist ask a more knowledgeable secondary character about a boundary. Ideally with an emotional investment in play in whatever that answer is. And have that answer be as succinct as you can.

Third suggestion, and the last one here, is: have the protagonist wish, however briefly, that something was possible, but they know it isn't within the limitations of your magic system. Just be warned that with this last one, it can come across as foreshadowing or seeding—as we've talked about in previous episodes—for them to eventually discover that they were wrong and that this is a false statement. So just be aware of that with that last suggestion.

Agnes: So, I could seriously talk about magic systems all day. And in fact, one of the things that I most like about magic systems is when they're really well thought out and unique. For instance, some of my favorite books, A Heart of Flame and Unmasking the Curse, they happen to both have very similar magic systems that are—the catalyst is actually trauma, which is something that I just thought was so fascinating. And of course, two of my favorite indie books happen to have that particular theme. So, what do you think makes a well-thought-out magic system that works?

Rebecca: Everything in this episode so far is worth bearing in mind in answering that question, as well as that exact idea you just brought up of uniqueness and innovation. It's been a while since I explained how I recommend achieving those traits as an author in this series, so here's my iterative brainstorming exercise for folks again.

First step: name what it is you are trying to brainstorm and grab a fresh sheet of paper or open a new tab. Get something blank in front of you.

Step two is just stream of consciousness every single idea that pops into your head on this topic, no matter how awful or cringy it is. Just write it down and move on to the next one.

Step three is: if you write down one that you love, one of these ideas, iterations, whatever that you think is better than the rest, highlight it to come back to and keep going.

Step four is: when you have at least 10 ideas or you run out of remotely new ideas (for me, that's usually around 20, that might be different for everyone), stop. Set it aside for just a moment, go get a glass of water, let your brain rest for 60 seconds.

Step five is: come back to your list and read through it. As you're doing that, highlight any favorites again.

Step six is: take those favorites and riff off of them. Try stating that better-than-the-rest idea in 10 different ways with only slightly different wording.

Step seven is: take your favorite (or favorites) from that next level in and sleep on it.
And then apply it.

For magic systems specifically, this exercise might look like, in microcosm: “my magic system is straight out of D&D and I want to make it more unique.” So, then you're going to do the exercise and your first three ideas might be: “mix and match abilities to the classes,” second idea is “rename everything in my own vocabulary,” and third idea is “remove all specific names and shift everything into a softer magic system.” All right, well then you can decide, “okay, well, my favorite is rename everything.” So as I am riffing off of that, I come up with the nested ideas of: rename things the same but with slightly different wording and synonyms. Idea 2 might be: rename everything in a second language that I happen to speak. Idea 3 might be: rename everything in synonyms and then also translate them into Medieval Latin. And that last one might be your favorite. So, you're going to go with that.

Hopefully that illustrates how this exercise might work.

Lastly, on this point, answering your question, I think that finding a way to connect your magic system to your core theme and message, like we talked about all the way back in episode four, I think, can be a big part of it working well for the story. For example, both of the books that you just mentioned have strong core themes of trauma and recovery from it, so integrating that with the magic system bolsters both sides of that connection.

Agnes: So, what is the number one thing that you see authors do when developing a magic system that doesn't actually work?

Rebecca: I'm great at lists, but I'm really bad at picking favorites, so I've got three thoughts here.

Number one is: it's an issue when it creates overpowered problems because it lacks costs or limitations. That's pretty self-explanatory.

Second biggest mistake that I see regularly is: it is too closely a ripoff of some really well-known magic system from a TV show or a video game or a, you know, tabletop game or another book series. Please do try to make it more unique and more yours.

And then third here is: it gets conveniently remembered or forgotten when the author wants to do something showy or make the protagonist suffer without working to make the situation exceed their magical ability to cope or function with it if they were remembering.

Those are the three biggest that I can come up with.

Agnes: So, what are some red flags that let us know if our magic system is flawed or inconsistent?

Rebecca: Number one: you have to mention exceptions. Either to the reader directly or through a character's dialogue to excuse a specific event or specific use of magic.

Second red flag would be: you have to use selective amnesia to make things hard for the plot or characters, which I've touched on twice before.

Red Flag 3 would be: you are struggling to make your antagonist a real threat in the face of how powerful your protagonist is. That one is pretty specific to fantasy from what I've seen.

Red Flag 4 would be: you are inventing abilities on the fly this late in the self-editing process to try to make things make sense or work. Just be aware of that, look at it a little bit more critically and see how else you could approach fixing your magic system.

Red Flag 5 would be: you get feedback from an outside reader that your magic system needs work.

Red Flag 6 would be that your characters don't really use magic much and there isn't a constantly present reason why. If you have magic in your world and your protagonists have access to it and know about it, they should be using it. So, see what you can do with that.

Red Flag 7 would be: your protagonist doesn't learn about magic or receive proof of it being real—if that's needed for them—until the second half of the book. Like you said, I think it was right at the beginning of this episode. Readers read fantasy for magic, so give it to them before they give up and decide to go read something else.

Red Flag 8 would be: if, when you just sit with the question in silence for a full minute, you know (or you have to admit) that you are doing a significant amount of info dump to try to cobble together a magic system that feels grounded and cohesive, when in reality that just needs to be overhauled so that it's more coherent.

And then lastly, on my little list here, Red Flag 9 would be: if the story would play out exactly the same in the grand scheme of things, with no magic, your magic is not integrated and you need to address that.

Agnes: So… Okay, first off, Rebecca's amazing. She literally put the pronunciation for me in this next thing, so do not congratulate me for actually being able to pronounce this. She literally put the pronunciation in my question for me. All right?
I had to tell on myself. So, as we've talked about Deus ex—Ah! I still didn’t get it!—Deus ex machina.

Rebecca: Yes, there you go.

Agnes: I feel like it might be easy to have our magic system make things too easy for our protagonists, like in Deus ex machina?

Rebecca: Good job.

Agnes: Okay, great. Is this the case, and how can we spot it if it happens?

Rebecca: There is a whole episode on that in this series, and I did mention that earlier a little bit. I do have some very specific advice about avoiding this with your protagonist, specifically in regards to magic systems.

First, make them fail at whatever skill you are worried about being deus ex machina at least twice before the climax. If you need them to be able to see the future in the climax, then make them fail to see the future before they get to that point, just to show that there's growth. And this is something that they are attempting. Anyway.

So, the second piece of advice would be: clearly show them only succeeding by the skin of their teeth in that moment. If their powers in the climax are feeling like deus ex machina, make it so that they come this close to dying instead, and that will help significantly with it feeling that way.

Third advice would be: make sure that you establish through the story leading up to the climax that this magic fits within your established and consistent magic system. Show other characters using it, mention it as a possibility. That kind of stuff.

Third and lastly on this topic here—sorry, fourth and lastly on this topic here—is: make sure that the costs are in full effect that they are worried about right before and/or as the protagonist is doing the big magic and that they, those costs, get paid.

If anyone listening has read A Heart of Flame, you'll know that a big part of how I dealt with Angie's big power in the climax was that she really, truly pays for it immediately after. There are big costs to that magic.

Agnes: So, we do need to wrap up. I think probably one of the funnest things to spot—and especially famous works—and I feel like it shows up a lot in middle grade fantasy, especially more than any other magical genre, is that the magic system tends to be the biggest place where plot holes are given. I'm not sure if you have seen that as well.

And I'm specifically thinking of like Harry Potter right off the bat. And there are so many in Harry Potter that I love, like reading the ones, being like, “oh yeah, that one too.” Yeah. As a reader, I think in part because of its age group and second, because the book itself is so immersive, we can forgive some of these. For instance, I adore Harry survived because his mother's love protect him. But how has love never protected anyone else before? And how come the dad's love did not protect the mom? You know, these are questions that even I read the first time and thought, but I was able to forgive.

Since we cannot guarantee our readers will be as forgiving as most Potterheads, how can we make sure our magic system does not give any plot holes?

Rebecca: Like I said in the Plot Holes & Character Inconsistencies episode, aiming for zero plot holes, especially in fantasy, can be a great way to never finish the book. However, aiming to catch as many as you reasonably can is a worthwhile goal.

So, I recommend revisiting episode 19 for this. And honestly, just doing multiple reads of your manuscript in the self-editing process, and making sure that you get outside feedback of some kind from at least two people before publishing, is going to go a long way towards that as well.

Agnes: Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate this one in particular was very exciting, and I'm actually kind of interested about the next one as well. So anyway, thank you very much.

Rebecca: Thank you. And yeah, next week we are going to do the second of our two genre-specific episodes, focusing specifically on love stories and romance specifics for now.

And as always, I would like to thank everyone who follows along with this video series.

We would appreciate it again, as always, if you could help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Author's Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series.

Thank you again.

Agnes: Can't wait to chat next week. Thank you.

Rebecca: Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more or visit my website linked in the description to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Tying Up Loose Ends: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 26

Tue, 01 Jul 2025 22:14:21 GMT

Tying Up Loose Ends: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript...

First of all, I realize that listeners may expect this episode to address the pros and cons of cliffhanger endings more that it actually does. For my full run down on that topic, I refer you back to an earlier installment of this series, Episode 7: Beginning, Middle, & End. While we do mention my advice on cliffhangers briefly here, that episode goes much more in-depth.

It's also worth mentioning that, if you can’t wrap something up without drawing out your resolution too long but the plot thread or aspect does need to be wrapped up to deliver necessary emotional payoff or avoid frustrating your readers, you may need to rework or remove that whole aspect of your plot. Always feel free to think outside the box, come at it from a different angle, or trust your gut.

Happy editing!

Episode 26 Overview:

Tying Up Loose Ends

"Are all of my subplots, plot threads, seeds, and foreshadowing either tied off in this story, or sufficiently threaded through past the end?"

Looking for plot structure tips , such as planting story seeds, when to leave plot threads open, or fixing plot problems ? In this writing podcast for authors , we dive into self-editing strategies that help you make intentional choices around plot threads, foreshadowing, and planting story seeds.

In episode 26 of the Story Savvy Self-Editing series, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring fantasy author Agnes Wolfe explore how to tie up loose ends—or purposefully leave them dangling—especially when writing a fiction series.

Rebecca explains the difference between seeds and subplots, shows how to track them throughout your manuscript, and helps you evaluate whether each element needs a payoff. You’ll also learn how to create clarity and emotional satisfaction for readers without tying everything in a neat bow.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

When it’s okay not to resolve a plot thread
How to tell the difference between a seed, a subplot, and a plot thread
Why standalone novels require different resolution strategies than series
How to track seeds, subplots, and setups across multiple books
Tips for ensuring every emotional payoff lands

Whether you’re revising your manuscript or outlining a series, this episode will help you bring intentionality to your storytelling—and turn a good ending into a great one.

Recommended Resources

Need a Developmental Editor? Check out my services through the website menu above!
Author’s Alcove Membership: http://authorsalcove.com
Fantasy Book Giveaway: AuthorsAlcove.org

See you next week for episode 27: Magic Systems & Fantasy

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 26 Transcript:

Tying Up Loose Ends

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 26 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We've covered a bunch in this series so far, including last week's episode on integrating and checking our subplots and plot threads.

Today, we are going to take a look at when, where, how, and why to tie up those plot threads and anything else that you set up, foreshadowed, or seeded. By the end of this episode, you'll hopefully feel confident finding everything that this topic applies to in your specific manuscript, and have an understanding of the pros and cons about wrapping something up or leaving it dangling.

Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolfe. Welcome.

Agnes Wolfe: I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later next year and also host and founder of Authors' Alcove. I'm here today to tackle this topic of deciding between wrapping things up or leaving them open, and I have lots of questions for her.

So, picking up where we left off in the last episode: is tying things up always the right thing to do? If not, how should we be deciding if we should, or what, or not?

Rebecca: Essentially, no, it is not mandatory that everything gets wrapped up, and it's not always the right choice. One of the situations in which it isn't is: if doing so would make your resolution way too long—you don't want to have chapters upon chapters upon chapters after your climax just to get everything wrapped up.

The second scenario in which that's not ideal is if you have a series that you're trying to carry things over for. If you have a standalone, there is a higher expectation of wrapping things up, but if you have a series there's a lot more wiggle room there.

And then the last consideration here is just how much emphasis you put on setting things up, or seeding, or foreshadowing. If you put a lot of emphasis on setting them up, you need to put a proportionate—if not equal—amount on wrapping things up.

If you didn't—if that's not the kind of story you're telling, where you're putting a lot of effort into planting clues and things—you can get away with leaving a lot more dangling.

This is a topic where I really, really want to remind folks of a point that you've brought up in a few episodes, which is: any of the self-editing that you need to do related to this topic is likely a matter of adding or tweaking one sentence in the resolution of your story. So, the entire section of the book after the peak of the climax. These should all be quick and easy fixes with plenty of wiggle room about where exactly you implement them.

Agnes: So, you just mentioned series, and I know my own book is a series, so I have a question on that. If I set up or foreshadow something, and like, right now I'm finishing up the first book and there's definitely foreshadowing stuff there. How can I most effectively make sure they are not forgotten by my reader when they go to read later? Both in the book where I set it up and also in the book where it finally pays off?

Rebecca: In the book where you first set it up, I recommend above all else that you mention it once, maybe twice, in the last couple of chapters. And this can be a very passing mention—it just has to be thought of, or mentioned, or seen, something like that.

In the book where it pays off, make sure that you are seeding it in that book too. This came up in the Deus ex Machina episode. If you've seeded something in, let's say, book one in a series, you have to also seed it in book four where it pays off. You can't rely on your readers having read, let alone remembered, that seeding in book one.

And if you—like I just gave in this example—if you have multiple books in between, then I suggest mentioning it at least once in those in-between books, just to keep it established as part of the world, or plot, or character build, or whatever that happens to be.

Agnes: So, when we choose not to wrap up something, what are some best practices around that? And does it change if it's like a series and a standalone?

Rebecca: Like I said, it does. If you are writing a standalone and you choose not to wrap something up, I recommend either using that very intentionally and making it clear in the way that you deliver it—"Hey, I'm intentionally leaving you with all of these questions"—or doing what you can to show, “well, the protagonist also has these questions dangling. The protagonist can't get the answer to this question, so you don't get it either.” But very intentionally addressing it is even more important in a standalone than in a series.

So, looking at both, and now shifting over to series a little bit more, again, making sure that the protagonist can't get the resolution that you want to withhold from the reader is definitely the best approach there.

Another approach would be to mention the thing in the lack of closure to show that you didn’t just forget about it. That can be very important in showing that it was an intentional choice rather than, "Oh, this author isn't a very good author. They just forgot to wrap this up."

And then lastly, make a note to make sure that you follow up on whatever that was later, if it’s a series. If you seed something in book one and you have this thought at the time of, "Oh, I’ll pay this off in book four," go have a note for book four and write it in. Just, "Hey, remember to follow up on XYZ."

Agnes: And one of the things—when you said that when it’s a standalone, to make sure that it’s done intentionally—one of the books that came to mind, I had to, if you saw me like typing, I was trying to remember what it was called, but The Giver and, like, you know, there’s other books like that where there's—they intentionally leave questions, and you're supposed to. You’re supposed to close the book and think about it.

And if it’s done well, you will be thinking about that book for a very long time afterwards.

But I know there’s also times when it’s not done well. And, for example, I can think of a book that you in particular were very annoyed by. I don’t know if you could think about it, where the person did not tie up. And I think that word "intentional" is probably, like, key as far as—especially standalone.

But like, let’s say if we do want to tie up a subplot or all of our subplots, what is the best way to make sure we tie up all of the loose ends and don’t leave any loose, such as, you know, certain books?

Rebecca: Yeah, I am going to recommend that you list all of these things. I know I recommend lists a lot. I love lists. I think they are great. So, I suggest—specifically for looking at wrapping these things up—name what the thread was, or the plot, or the seed. Name the core moment. What were you setting up with that plot? What were you setting up with that thread? And then list and check all of the events or questions that you used to set it up, checking that each thing on that list—or at least the biggest—happens or gets an answer.

So, if you’re setting up an event in this thread, how you check to make sure that it’s wrapped up is: make sure that that event you are setting up actually happens. If the seed was, “Oh, I wonder if...” or “What about so-and-so?” then you make sure that that thread got wrapped up by making sure that an answer is given. Ideally, clearly, and ideally, memorably. That’s how you check that these things got wrapped up.

Agnes: So I know that for myself, like, when I put a seed in, like, I will take notes to try to keep track of that, and I—Is there a better way, or what way do you choose to use to make sure that you're—file—you're track—you're keeping track of all of your seeds and all of your subplots? Would you recommend taking notes, planning, drafting?

Rebecca: You can… First of all, you can take notes wherever works best for you. For some people, that's spreadsheets. For some people, that's physical notes. For some people like me, that tends to be [Microsoft] Word documents or Google Docs.

The important thing is that you remember where you wrote all of these things down, and ideally, try to keep them together in one place. It can be harder to keep track of if you have a bunch of different notes across a bunch of different platforms or medias.

Yeah, so there isn't one right way that I'm aware of. Keeping lists is how it's done unless you are a genius with perfect memory. And yeah, I tend to make these lists in my outlining document so that I have it collected with all of the other backend information for a series—so, the information that's for me, but not necessarily for the reader.

And in that, I personally keep three very specific sets of lists.

The first is about my characters. I have a character roster, sometimes it might be called a character bible or character sheets. And in this, I have their name, I have any old names that I used to think of them as when I was drafting—because sometimes those slip through and I need to search for them—I have notes on their specific mindset, so their internal... what’s the word I'm looking for... like landscape. Is this person generally optimistic or pessimistic? Are they outgoing or introverted? That sort of thing. And then I will also list their skills, their change arc, their magic color, things like that.

The second list set that I will include has to do specifically with the arena—so the physical space that the story is playing out on. And this might be notes that I collected from researching Stonehenge or, you know, a link to a Pinterest board with pictures of buildings that I want to describe in my writing, stuff like that. That same list also includes my overarching themes. So my statements like: I am writing in a modern equivalent Roman-themed world. My books are generally this tone. I want to have this effect on my readers. This emotion is always going to be at the center of my stories. Those sorts of things.

And then the third set of lists that I will keep for tracking these plots and plot threads and everything is specific to plot points and events. So this is where I would list things like, all right, at the beginning of book one, this is the climax event. Okay, well, that has five different elements that all need to come together for that event to happen. All right, I’m going to list all five of those events, and I'm going to list all of the places where I threaded those through. So, this element comes up in chapters 1, 6, 9, and 15—that kind of stuff.

So, while I'm drafting, I will tweak this. I usually make the list when I’m doing the plotting and the outlining so that I can make sure I'm planning to put these things in.
And then when I'm drafting, I will reference those lists now and then to make sure that I’m keeping things cohesive and on theme, and to make sure that I am bringing these things up where and as often as I intended to.

And then during self-editing, I might rearrange or change my mind on things—add, scrap, or reposition elements in those lists. It's also the lists that I use when I am checking my subplot and plot threads—though given how I outline, that's often just a quick mental check for me to make sure: “Okay, I meant to mention it here, here, and here. Did I? Yes.” And then if I'm not sure, I will go in and check. But this is usually a quick process for me because I do so much of that work in the outlining.

Agnes: So, when we're talking about things to wrap up that aren't really big enough to count as subplots, what exactly do you mean by seeds? Is that the same as foreshadowing?

Rebecca: It can be. I tend to use those two terms very interchangeably. The consideration here is that a subplot, like I'd mentioned in the last episode, has a genre attachment to it. So, you can have an adventure subplot, you could have a romance subplot, you could have a maturation subplot. Those all speak to a bigger understanding of the conventions, the expected moments, the emotions—all that kind of thing.

When I'm talking about seeds—which sometimes I'll refer to as plot threads, but the seed is just kind of the beginning of the plot thread—what I'm talking about is the first time you mention Chekhov's gun, for example. You mention the gun that's going to go off in the midpoint, whatever. So, the mention of that gun the first time is the seed.

And then every time you mention it again, or allude to it, or hint at it, or question things around it—that's all growing that seed.

So, the seed is simply whatever you plant with the intention of later harvesting it. And the harvest is when you have the gun go off, or when that ability that was such a pain in their butt in chapter five, that they've slowly been trying to work on, comes into itself and can be used productively for what they want to use it for. The idea of a seed is that it seems unimportant at the time that you plant it. (That's not necessarily a requirement, but it's a common trait to it.) And you plant it specifically with the intention of being able to harvest it later to give the reader an enjoyable moment.

That's all that really is. It's a seed if you set it up and then later the reader gets a little bit of a hit off of it from whatever emotion or sense of mystery or surprise or whatever that payoff was.

Agnes: How can I make sure I paid off all the seeds in my book? Or do you have a recommendation to make sure I did not neglect any?

Rebecca: Those list suggestions can be helpful, but the seeds can also be small enough that that could be really hard to spot. So I recommend that as you're doing a read-through of your manuscript—of which you should do many in the self-editing process—when you see a paragraph or a sentence where you know that you were planting a seed, pause for a beat and just think, “Oh, did I pay that off?” And name where in the story you did. Or, if you aren’t sure, go check where you think you might have done that.

Beyond that, try making the list. Check each one. Name where you think it paid off. Go check that with fresh eyes if you can, to make sure that it's going to come across how you intended.

And how you define whether or not that seed paid off—so that you have an answer there is:

It paid off if it changed how the protagonist thought, saw the world, or continued pursuing their goal.
It paid off if it created emotion for the protagonist, and by extension, the reader.
And lastly, it paid off successfully if the story wouldn't be the same without it. And by it, I mean the seed and the thread and the payoff.

Agnes: So as a writer, I think we know what our story should say. And so, it's very easy for us to overlook the fact that our planted seed had never sprouted—or because in our mind it did, because we know what it was supposed to do, even if we forgot to do it on paper. And then our subplots were wrapped up because we know more than the reader. And all of those sort of things. How can we catch these?

Rebecca: So, mostly outside feedback. This is one of those things where, because we thought we paid it off, or we intended to, it can be really hard to get out of our own perspective.

Beyond that, it just goes right back to those lists. And if you can point at a passage where you're like, “yes, it paid off right here. This is the end, this is the wrap-up, the tie-up of this particular plot thread or seed or whatever,” that can be helpful, but it may or may not come across that way.

So, get alpha readers, get beta readers, get a dev editor, get ARC readers—whoever you can find to be those fresh eyes for you.

Agnes: So, we do need to wrap up. I have one last question for you.

So, I know that not tying up big seeds or major subplots can feel very unfulfilling. I remember one of our Meet the Author book clubs, which I kind of referenced before—you had felt, as you were finishing the book, that they were doing such an excellent job of setting something up. But when we got to the end, you felt it never paid off. You felt very confused and disappointed because you felt you were almost tricked in a way.

So, I know we need to be careful not tying up seeds, but I do have to ask, just like in the subplots, is it ever okay if we don't harvest a seed?

Rebecca: Yes. But the same rules apply.

So, going through a brief little list here:

Mention it to show that you didn't just forget to pay it off.
If the protagonist never gets an answer to whatever you'd set up, name that. Have the protagonist have a moment of going, Wait, I never got an answer to that thing.

· And then lastly, really look at it. Look at whether you are delivering the core emotional payoff promise of your story.

If you aren't in the end—and I recently edited a book where this was an issue, so it's top of my mind at the moment—but if you reach the end and you are any degree, be that one sentence or more, shy of giving the reader that catharsis or that breath or that relief, whatever your promised emotional payoff is, then you do need to pick a plot thread, ideally your main plot thread. (Go back to last week's episode.) That would deliver that emotion, and tie that up enough to deliver it.

In the book that I just edited, it was literally a matter of one more sentence. Because it was a great thriller. It built up. It built up. And the book ends without giving the reader either a sense of justice or catharsis because he was an asshole and now she's free of him. It was one sentence shy of delivering an emotional payoff. And that matters. So, to that extent, you do need to pay stuff off.

Agnes: Well, thank you so much for your insight. I feel like the biggest theme here is that we need to be intentional. Anyway, so thank you so much. I have been enjoying this series so much. I really am enjoying this particular section the most, just because this is where I am in my own self-editing process. Again, thank you.

Rebecca: Excellent. Yeah! Next week we will continue in the very similar themes, so hopefully it will continue to be helpful. And we are going to do the first of two genre-specific episodes [this next one] focusing on fantasy and magic systems specifically.

So, for right now, I would like to thank everyone who has followed along with this series. We would appreciate it if you could please like and subscribe to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Authors' Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series.

Thank you very much.

Agnes: And I am actually, completely geeked about next week's episode. See you then.

Follow along to hear more, or visit my website linked in the description to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Subplots & Plot Threads: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 25

Tue, 24 Jun 2025 23:11:06 GMT

For anyone unfamiliar with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, which I referenced in this episode, here's a link I like which goes over it! https://fiction-writers-mentor.com/maslows-hierarchy-of-needs/

Episode 25 Overview:

Subplots & Plot Threads

"Are my plot threads and subplots working well with the overarching plot? Do I know which is my main plot, and which are secondary?"

Looking for insightful plot structure tips , especially when it comes to subplots and plot threads? In this writing podcast for authors , we dive into practical plot structure advice and offer strategies for identifying and fixing story problems .

In episode 25 of the Story Savvy Self-Editing series, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring fantasy author Agnes Wolfe [ authorsalcove.com ] explore how to incorporate subplots and plot threads effectively within your story.

Rebecca defines the difference between subplots and plot threads, explains how to identify your dominant plot, and walks you through evaluating and revising subplots for maximum impact.

Learn how to tell one clear story—even when juggling multiple POVs or emotional tones (think Game of Thrones )—and when unresolved subplots are okay to leave open-ended.

Rebecca will guide you through:

How to tell which plot is your “main” one—especially if you blend genres
The difference between subplots and plot threads (and why it matters)
How limiting your subplots can strengthen your story
What makes a plot thread or subplot effective
When it’s okay to leave a plot thread hanging.

Whether you're overwhelmed by too many plot lines or unsure if you're effectively incorporating a plot thread, this episode will help you turn your good story into a great one.

Recommended Resources:

Need a Developmental Editor? www.hartboundediting.com
Author’ Alcove Membership: http://authrosalcove.co m
Fantasy Book Giveaway: www.AuthorsAlcove.org

Next week we continue the conversation: how and when to wrap up your subplots. So be sure to check that one out as well!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 25 Transcript:

Subplots & Plot Threads

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 25 of the Story Savvy Self Editing series where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to.

We've covered a bunch in this series so far, including last week's episode on Consequences & Processing, which was following our discussion of Plot Twists.

Today we are going to take a look at subplots and plot threads. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully feel confident naming all of your different plot threads, making sure that they are worth including, that they are working well, and feel confident getting them all woven together into a more cohesive whole.

Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolf. Hello!

Agnes Wolfe: Hi. I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later next year. September 13th is the goal. I'm here today to tackle the topic of using, checking, and improving subplots.

So, how can we tell the difference between our main plot and subplot? Especially if we are writing two genres together, like action adventure plus romance, or mystery plus thriller, and we aren't sure which is the dominant plot?

Rebecca: There are a few ways to look at this.

First, I recommend researching the two genres—or more, if you're caught between three or four—and see what the requirements, expectations, conventions, and things like that there are for each of those genres. Then look at those lists and see on which of those lists you're hitting the highest percentage of those moments and aspects and elements? That's going to be your dominant. So, if you have a mystery and a romance and you're hitting all of the requirements for a murder mystery and half of the requirements for the romance, the mystery is going to be your dominant.

There are a couple of other questions that you can ask yourself here if that answer isn't being helpful to you. I've got a whole list of these.

So, the next would be: what is the core theme or message that you want your reader to walk away with? Which plot line is delivering that theme or message?

Next question would be: what are the core stakes throughout the story or the primary emotion that gets explored or experienced the most? Okay, which plot is delivering that core emotion?

Which plot gets the most chapters or pages or paragraphs dedicated to it? If you were to sort your entire manuscript by how many words are dedicated to each of your different plot lines, which has the highest word count? That's probably your dominant.
How would you define the payoff of the whole story in one sentence? That could be: they catch the murderer, they have their happily ever after—something like that. Okay, which plot line is delivering that? That's probably dominant.

And then the last one, the last thought here, is” if you have an even spread of these questions, so if all of these different questions, when you ask them, don't have the same answer, then I recommend using external feedback. Be that a beta reader, alpha reader, developmental editor, anyone. To sort of help you break that tie, essentially.

Or you can use how you want to market the book as your tiebreaker. Do you want to have a romance-looking romance cover on it? Okay, then it's probably—you should work on making your romance plot the answer to those questions. Do you want to market it as a gritty thriller? Do you want that kind of cover and that kind of, you know, marketing aesthetic? Okay, then that's probably the right answer, and you should work on making that truly the primary plot.

Agnes: You kind of just answered this question, but I'm going to ask anyway because, you know, you mentioned thinking about how you're marketing—but why is it important to know which one? If you have two, that is the plot, and which one is the subplot?

Rebecca: It really matters going back to, I think it was episode two, where we were talking about genre. That's what most people look for first when they're shopping for books. You go to that section in the library, you go to that section in the bookstore, that page on Amazon, because each genre has its own emotional promise. So, if you are promising an emotion, that has to be delivered. And it is the primary plot that is going to deliver it.

So, if you are looking at a book and you don't know what the primary plot is, then you can't honestly promise any emotional payoff. If you don't know what your primary plot is, you don't know what primary genre you're writing in. And that's a big problem, which you can go back to episode two to really get the in-depth answer on.

Agnes: So, what is, you know, we're talking about both subplot and plot threads, and I think most of us have a vague idea of what subplot is or plot threads. But I think it's good to have like a definition of each. So that way we know what we're referring to throughout this conversation. What is the difference between a subplot and a plot thread?

Rebecca: These are somewhat nebulous terms in the writing world, but here are my definitions that I use when I'm talking about these things:

A plot thread is a through line of goals, motives, conflicts, and cause and effect on one specific topic, towards one specific moment of payoff. This can refer to the main plot or subplots, or the setup of a specific moment threaded through the whole story. But a plot thread does not necessarily have to hit any genre beats like for a subplot

So, like I just said, a subplot is definable by having a genre association. It has genre beats, and conventions, and expectations that it is hitting, including, but not limited to: the stakes, the core emotion, the kind of message or theme, again, conventions, expectations, obligatory moments—all of those sort of things. Any plot of this nature in a story that is not the primary plot is a subplot. For example, if you have a rebellion plot and a romance plot in one book, those are both genres. Those both have conventions and expectations. So, one of them will be the primary, and one of them is a subplot—which is a step up from talking about plot threads.

Agnes: So, referring to plot threads, like I'm thinking about one of my plot threads where it’s basically, “finding inner strength” is probably the best way to sum it up. And how do I know—you don't have to use that one unless you want to—but how do you know if you are doing it effectively and it adds to your story?

Rebecca: This one actually has a really short and sweet answer.

A plot thread is working well in the story if it has a definable payoff, and if the moments foreshadowing that payoff can be (and are) delivered in an interesting way.

So, with your example, if you have a moment where that finding inner strength plot thread pays off, and if the moments where you are exploring that theme—where it is threaded back through—are delivered in a way other than exposition, it's probably working pretty well.

Agnes: So, should all of the subplots follow the same theme as, like, our main plot?

Rebecca: If they do, great. But if that's not the case in what you wrote, or if that's not what you were going for, then tangentially related to that main plot is fine.

So if you have a main plot with a theme of “you can find purpose if you connect with other people,” then a tangential subplot theme might be “we get to define what our own life purpose is for ourselves,” or “you have to actually look for something in order to find it,” or “being independent isn't always the best way to live.” All of those are connected to the main plot theme, but sort of a branch off from it. And that is totally fine.

Agnes: I know that part of this answer is actually going to be knowing your audience before I get to the question, because like I'm thinking, I prefer middle grade fantasy for a reason. But there are people who like Game of Thrones, and one of the main reasons I do not like Game of Thrones is because it has too many subplots for me. So, my question is: can you have too many subplots or can you have too few?

Rebecca: Short answer is: yes, to the first, no, to the second.

There is always wiggle room for any of these answers for experienced writers who have really honed their skills and practiced a lot of this. But generally, I say that one main plot and more than two subplots is probably too many. And again, I refer you back to my definitions on that. I am not talking about plot threads. Every major moment in just the main plot can have its own plot thread. We're just talking about genre-tagged subplots here.

On the other side of that, you really cannot have too few. One plot with zero subplots can absolutely be a solid, interesting book. That one plot just needs to have a lot going for it, and a lot going on, and probably a lot going wrong, to keep things interesting.

Agnes: And I think also about the knowing your audience, because I know myself—like one, what you just said defines what I enjoy. But there are people who enjoy like Game of Thrones or other books that have like so many that I have trouble keeping track.

Rebecca: But bear in mind, those are masterful, experienced writers who have spent decades honing their ability to present that many plots concurrently, well.

Agnes: That’s true. So, when you're looking at subplots, what are some things you should consider during the revision editing process?

Rebecca: I recommend that you ask yourself the following questions and fix the answers as needed.

Number one is: when my characters are pursuing a subplot, are they completely distracted from the main plot? If so, can you fix that?

Are they moving away from the main plot when they are on the subplot? Or are they moving in a completely different direction from it? If so, can you use that to add interest, or do you want to fix that?

Third question would be: is trying to include the subplot forcing you to include more info-dump or exposition than the payoff for that subplot is worth?

Question four would be: even if it isn't a matter of info dump and exposition, is the subplot's payoff still worth the word count that you are spending on it in general?

Question five would be: is the subplot strengthening the main plot or is it undermining it—depending on what you're going for? Because sometimes that can be a goal. Do you need to fix whatever that answer is?

Sixth question to ask yourself would be: does the main plot have to go completely on pause while the protagonist is doing a subplot? If you have to sort of freeze that main plot to come back to later, and it can't advance while the subplot is happening, then that's a problem worth addressing.

And then seventh question—and last one on this list here I've got—is: is the subplot adding to the core story as I want my readers to remember it a year after they finish reading it? So, they aren't going to remember the details. They probably won't even remember the protagonist's name. But they're going to remember an impression. And if your subplot isn't contributing to that, then do you want to scrap it, or do you want to try to fix it so that it is contributing and is earning its place alongside the main plot more?

Agnes: I do know that I have talked to others—as I've talked to other authors, one of the things they have said is sometimes the subplot starts to take over. And what they end up doing is—actually that with one of them, Chelle Cypress’s Unmasking the Curse—she actually made a 1.5 because she had to take that whole section out, and she turned it into a little novella. And I've heard of other people who do it, and they use that little subplot as a marketing method. So, it's a freebie. It's, you know, a little novella free in the mail or in your newsletter. So, I think there's also those sort of options as well. And then I'm sure—I'm sure there's famous authors that I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I know there are—who have done the same thing, where they did a novella from a subplot. But anyway.

Rebecca: I love that idea.

Agnes: So how closely related should the subplot be to our main plot?

Rebecca: There's no universal answer to this. I suggest "as closely as you can manage" as an answer but would also say that "noticeably connected" is an acceptable baseline as well.

As for how to connect a subplot more to that main plot—if you want to, or if you feel that it's needed—my number one suggestion would be: look at making the main plot and the subplot line up more on the same goals, motives, conflicts, any other aspect like that. Make them head in the same direction.

Second suggestion would be: make them explore the same theme or message more clearly or directly, but you could do so from different angles or different perspectives.

Third suggestion would be: make each of the plot lines—be that the main plot or a subplot—have repercussions in the other ones more. So, make your main plot affect the subplots and vice versa to a more tangible degree.

And then fourth, and lastly, I suggest that you make sure that when the protagonist is dealing with a subplot event or conversation, they are still thinking about (and trying to get back to) the main plot a little bit more. And if you do that well, it can bring them into feeling like they are more aligned, even if they are more separate, practically speaking.

Agnes: I think one of the things you've already said about this is that when it's distracting from the main plot. But what would make a subplot distracting? And to take away from the overall story, like what is it about it?

Rebecca: Really the same things that I listed for when it might need to be edited. So that same list of: what purpose it’s doing, what it's failing to do. All of that kind of stuff. I'll avoid repeating myself.

Agnes: So, what are some of the biggest mistakes you see as people try to incorporate a plot thread? Especially as a developmental editor who has seen lots of books in the very beginning stages.

Rebecca: Yes. Number one would be: they are trying to tell two entirely separate stories in one. And I especially see this with flashbacks or backstory timelines as a subplot, which I strongly caution against. You want to tell one story in one book. And if that means you write a prequel novella in addition to The Book, that can be a good way to handle that.

Second big mistake would be: not enough is done to transition from the emotions of one plot line to another. For example, if you're combining a romance/love plot with a darker plot—or one that's lower on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, which I've mentioned in other episodes—then you really need to ease the reader between the moments of "I am angry and being mistreated and in fight mode," and the moments of "Oh my gosh, you're so cute, can we please kiss?"

Obviously, there's going to be some overlap, and you can play with how you want to mix those lighter and darker emotions that come from very different places internally. But it's a fairly common issue that I see, where the action-adventure emotions end up being undercut by the romance. Where you have this moment of, "Well, that couldn't have actually been that serious if they're switching over to lovey-dovey quite this quickly." Or on the reverse side of that, the romantic or sexy moments get soured as creepy or unhealthy because that action/adventure emotion and place of being is too closely butted up against that and mixing in without that transition.

The third biggest mistake that I often see is specific to multi-protagonist, multi-POV books—particularly high fantasy. And you brought up Game of Thrones, which is a perfect example of doing it well. The mistake that I've seen is when people don't—so specifically—there has to be a main plot in a book. And you can come at it from different angles, you can have one be more important than the others, but it all has to come down to one main plot. This can be approached as: all of your different POV protagonists are all on the same path. They are all going towards a common destination, and there's enough clues in there that this is going to happen. Or, like in Game of Thrones, you have common goals—that everyone is trying to sit on the Iron Throne—or common enemies of "let's avoid whatever those monsters were in the North." —so you have commonalities so that all of these different POVs are essentially on one plot path. Or you can approach this as: everyone has their own plot, but one of them is going to override the others. One of them is a main plot. That’s who you're expecting the reader to be invested in—sorry—you're expecting the reader to be invested in—so they know to pay more attention to that one than the others.

The important thing is that you make it clear to the reader which is the main plot. Because, as we mentioned earlier in this episode, if you don't, they won't know which genre with that emotional payoff promise they are going to get in the climax. That is a super important aspect that goes right back to the very beginning of this series that we were talking about with genre. So, if you can't make it clear which of these POV protagonists is on the real or the main plot, that's the problem.

Agnes: So, I wish we had a lot more time, but we do need to wrap up because I have a lot more questions. I have one last question that I'm going to ask, which is: do you have to wrap up all the subplots, or can some be unresolved at the end of the story?

Rebecca: This is a great question, and the answer depends on so many different factors that we are actually going to do an entire episode just to answer this next week.

Agnes: Okay, good. So, I can ask all those questions I had.

Rebecca: Yes.

Agnes: Anyway, thank you so much for your insight. It has always helped me. I really enjoy this series. I'm so glad that I've been able to be part of it.

Rebecca: As am I. Next week, like I said, we will go over when and why and how to tie things up in a story—including plot threads and subplots and even smaller things that you've seeded.

For right now, I would really like to thank everyone following along with this series. We would appreciate it if you could help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Authors Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series.

Agnes: I can't wait to chat with you next week. See you then.

Rebecca: Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great, so it can change lives, and change your world. Follow along to hear more, or visit my website linked in the description to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Consequences & Processing: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 24

Wed, 18 Jun 2025 01:06:26 GMT

Episode 24 Overview:

Consequence & Processing

"Am I doing enough for every big event or revelation to show the external consequences and internal processing around them? Are those aspects, in turn, impacting the plot in a meaningful and grounded way?"

Today in our writing podcast for authors, we explore the overlooked power of consequences and processing in fantasy, and why they’re essential to strong storytelling. Understanding these concepts you will understand better how to add depth to characters and how to process big events in stories.

In episode 24 of the Story Savvy series, we explore how to strengthen your novel’s pivotal moments by showing how characters respond—internally and externally—to the events that shape them. So let’s join together as we unpack how to turn your “big moments” into lasting change.

Developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and fantasy author Agnes Wolfe explore how to blend cause and effect with character introspection in a way that deepens your story without slowing your pacing. This week in the 52-Week Story Savvy self-editing series, they break down how to spot weak plot moments and fix them with intentional reactions, turning points, and layered emotion.

They also cover:

What counts as a “big event” in fiction
How to know if your scenes need more consequences
When delayed consequences or processing work (and when they flop)
Why emotional weight must feel proportional
How to tell if your story’s moments actually matter
The difference between internal and external fallout in plot

Recommended Resources:
Authors’ Alcove Membership Community – [ http://authorsalcove.com ]
Book Giveaway – [ http://authorsalcove.org ]

See you next week for episode 25: Sub Plots and Plot Threads!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 24 Transcript:

Consequences & Processing

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 24 of the Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to.

We have covered a bunch in this series so far, including last week's episode on plot twists, and today we are going to take a look at consequences and processing for our characters and plots, making sure that these aspects are working well in our self-editing.

By the end of this episode, the hope is that everyone will feel confident in recognizing, checking, and fine-tuning the consequences and processing for the big moments in their manuscripts. Joining me today to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolfe. Hello!

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, so I am an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy next year, and I'm also the host and founder of Authors Alcove. I'm here today to tackle this topic, making sure that these aspects are working well in self-editing.

So, I just want to ask, are consequences and processing something we are checking in every scene? Well, first off, I always think it's a good idea just to say what exactly we are talking about as far as definitions of consequences and processing, what you're actually talking about. But then, I also want to know if we are checking in every single scene for the purposes of this self-editing series.

Rebecca: Sure, so consequences, definitionally, are events down the chain of cause and effect from a previous event. So a consequence of, let's say, deciding to do laundry is that you have clean clothes. And a consequence of deciding to fake your own death and move to a different country is that you have to, you know, stay under the radar and make all of these other decisions and take all of these other precautions because you made that one decision up the chain. So, consequences are anything that happens, or that you are forced to do, or affects to your decision making caused by whatever event you are looking at the consequences from.

Processing is the internal version of consequences, essentially. It is the human experience and event of trying to make sense of the world, and to pick apart and understand why something happened. Or to understand what happened and how you can move forward from that. So, consequences, for the purposes of this episode, are the externals after a big event, and processing is internals after a big event.

So, to answer your question specifically, you can check this at every scene or chapter level in your book if you want to, and especially if you've really put a lot of work into making sure that each scene and chapter has a core event that really changes something. But I'm primarily recommending that folks check this in their self-editing just for the big moments. So the, let's say, three to ten however big moments you feel like you have in your book that you would consider a turning point for the plot or for the protagonist. Those are the moments that we're really talking about checking here.

Agnes: So, do you mind just defining exactly what counts as a big event that needs to have both the external consequences and the internal processing checked around it?

Rebecca: Sure. So, we have touched on big moments in a bunch of previous episodes. We've talked about the midpoint and the climax and the crisis, and last week we talked about big plot twists. All of those are going to be big moments, and one of the easiest ways to check where the big moments are in your story is to go back to, I think it was episode 18, where we were talking about intensity and look at whatever graph you can make for yourself. If you're using numbers, if you're using a bar chart, it doesn't matter. Wherever there's a peak or a significant valley is probably a big moment in your story.

So, a big moment can be defined by the emotions that come up. Very, very good emotions, so joy, success, anything like that. Or really negative ones, so grief or loss, anything like that. If there's a big emotion, it's likely a big moment. And then externally I would define a big moment as a place where the plot is significantly advanced. So, a big jump towards a goal, or towards the climax event is taken, or where the plot is forced to take a very different direction. So, where that plot is forced to turn, which would often be a plot twist like we talked about last week.

Agnes: So, this is kind of a weird question to ask, but so like when we're looking at our big events, what if it doesn't actually impact the plot? Should we think about revising it? Should we think about deleting it? Should it stay? How should that impact our self-editing when we recognize, that like, our big event doesn't actually impact the plot?

Rebecca: So straight off the bat, that is a problem that needs to be addressed, and you can pretty much go one of two ways. You can remove it so that you aren't wasting the time and energy, or you can go in and make it matter.

If this was in a book of my own—and I have done this, I've found a big moment in my own work that didn't change anything, didn't affect anything—what I chose to do there was use consequences and processing to make it matter. I did not have to change the overall arc of the story. I didn't have to change the climax or how I would link into the next book in the series, anything like that. All I really had to do to make this matter was: I took that big moment and I wrote out a list of all of the ways that it could have had a big impact but didn't. And then I picked one or two favorites and over the next, I think it was four or five scenes, I had a tail end of those consequences. And it did mean I had to rewrite one of the scenes and I had to significantly tweak two others, but by making it matter through processing and consequences, I was able to keep in this scene that I really liked because of just what I got to do in it, and I thought it was cool.

So yeah, consequences and processing is how you can make a big moment that doesn't actually affect the story earn its place in the manuscript.

Agnes : I really like that, and I think that goes back to something we often talk about, which is that when we are self-editing, our changes don’t actually have to be huge. I think as a—so I’m a beta reader, and I have interviewed a lot pf people who have had problems with beta readers. And I often want to tell them that, you know, when they have a problem with what their beta reader is saying, what that means is that you probably just need to adjust things slightly, and I’ll bet you the beta reader would have appreciated that exact same thing that you are in love with but they didn’t like. And I think that’s kind of what you’re getting at. Like, you had to change just five or—

Rebecca: Yeah. The changes that are needed are often smaller than you think when you first read the feedback because I understand that is always a difficult process. And also, I think it’s a Shephen King quote, something along the lines of: “A reader is almost always correct when something isn’t right, but almost always wrong about why.” So, if you get feedback of “Oh this scene sucked,” okay, there is definitely something there worth fixing up. But it’s probably not that the whole scene sucked. It’s probably that there was one sentence, or maybe a paragraph, where the protagonist’s reaction was really off, or you have a plot hole about cause-and-effect. So, always take it seriously when a feedback reader says, “There’s something wrong here,” but feel free to come with your explanations for why, and do that digging, which is what this self-editing is all about. It’s trying to give you the tools to interpret feedback and find what’s actually not working if you don’t think it’s what they said.

Agnes: Okay, now, plug your ears, I’m telling out audience this. Also, if your developmental editor tells you something’s wrong, and then you recognize that they’re probably wrong on why, then listen to her advice right now. Because there have been a few times where I’m listening and, like, she will give me her reason why and I will be like, “Actually, I think she’s wrong, but she’s right I need to change it.” And one of them—like one of them—we talked about this on one of our episodes, anyway, you told me that I had to many characters. And I was looking at all these stories that I love and they have tons of characters. But I realized that I do actually have some characters that could be combined into one. So, I probably will still have a big cast, but you were right that I did have some characters that…

Rebecca: And there was another topic in your work that we edited together where I thought that the issue what that you were intentionally withholding information from your reader to try to create this sense of mystery, and I was wrong! You let me know afterwords, like “No, I just forgot to mention those things—”

Agnes: “Oh that was just bad writing.

Rebecca: —that’s great. My job is to find where something isn’t working quite right, and try to figure out why, and offer suggestions on how it might be fixed. But if I am wrong, I love that, because that means that the writer that I am working with has the confidence, and the self-awareness, and the wherewithal to look at this and o, “I know that something is wrong, but I don’t think they are right about why. Here’s how I’m going to change it instead.” And that is beautiful. I love that for the writers that I work with.

Agnes: Alright, so, going back to your questions—our questions: why does showing appropriate consequences after these events matter? So like, how can we define what’s appropriate to make sure we’re hitting that, and what are the cons if we don’t?

Rebecca: Sure. The goal with providing adequate but not surplus consequences and processing is to prove that something mattered. And I feel like this comes up in at least half of the episodes in this series, of, “it’s working if it matters. If it impacts the plot if things are changed from there on.” How you prove that that is the case to your reader is through consequences and processing. If you have a big moment, let’s say the village is attacked and the two protagonists flee and get away safely, if they then immediately go back to the village and it’s fine, and they don’t have any emotional reaction to that, that didn’t matter. So, the point of consequences and processing, and showing them, is to prove that it mattered. And then on the other end of that, of making sure that you don’t have too many, or too much, consequences and processing, is simply to allow the story to continue moving forward. Because while consequences and processing are necessary, they aren’t actually interesting to read, in themselves. So you don’t want to have three scenes of consequences and processing without their own big events here and there. “Big,” being relative on the scene level. So, yeah. You’re going to get your readers bored, essentially.

So, defining what’s appropriate, and if you’re hitting the right spectrum: I suggest ranking your bigness of your moments first to a universal understanding. So, I think everyone on the planet would agree that a big moment of a tsunami wiping out an entire island is way bigger than a big moment of getting dumped by your boyfriend. So, ranking them on that scale can help you understand, “alright, consequences and processing”—I know, we’ve all been there, we’ve all felt very big in small moments. But having an understanding that you need to have a more proportional amount of consequences and processing for a tsunami, than you do for a breakup, can help you gauge how much you should be including.

And then, beyond that, gauge it just for your story. So, within your individual book that you have written and you are now editing, what’s the biggest moment? Okay, that should have the most consequences and processing. What’s the smallest “big” moment? So, the lowest stakes things that you are still defining as a “big” moment for your story? That should have the least. And this can be a craft thing. If you are naturally skilled at delivering concise consequences or processing, you can do this in a paragraph. Or if you are writing the kind of story that expects more consequences and processing it’s fine to do an entire scene or two for that. So it’s one where really kind of have to make your own call. But go through and sit with each big moment, and each set of consequences or processing for it and ask yourself; “Is this proportional? Is this balanced? And am I going deliver believability balanced against boredom?”

Agnes: I think also knowing your audience is a huge part of that. Because what’s going to seem big to a certain audience is going to seem small to another audience. And so the consequences probably do need to be bigger for the breakup in a middle-grade novel than it does in may an adult novel where the person is going to find a new love, like, later on. And I so I think knowing your audience and knowing, like, how big are they to see this is probably a good thing to keep in mind.

Rebecca: Absolutely.

Agnes: So, what’s a good indication that we need to add more external consequences to a scene? Because as I’ve talked about many times, is that we are in love with our stories, and sometimes we have to hear it from other people, but it’s good for us to do the self-editing before anybody’s ever looked at it. So how can we look at it and be like, “Okay, I need to add more external consequences in this scene, or big event.”

Rebecca: I would say: look at the very next choice that your protagonist makes after a big event. If that next choice—so that might be “Oh, I’m going to o hang out with this particular friend,” or “I’m going to keep traveling down this road towards this destination,” or “I’m choosing to, you know, dress up really fancy and go to this party.” Whatever their next choice is, gauge how much that choice was impacted by the big event that immediately preceded it. If the answer is ”zero” you probably need to adjust that. So, look at how much that event is impacting things. And again, gauge whether or not it’s appropriate for how big you wanted that event to come across. If you want to include a bi event that has minimal consequences, that’s a choice that you can make. Just be intentional with it and check to see, measurably, how many future events does it impact? How many choices made by the protagonist does it impact in the immediate aftermath? These are the litmus tests for how much external consequences you have, and again, that gut-check is really the only measure—at this stage, obviously external feedback can be very, very helpful with this particular topic—for whether or not you have the right amount. I hope that’s helpful.

Agnes: Yeah, definitely. And I think also it’s good that we’re talking about both the external consequences and the internal processing because, you know, I’m going back to like that breakup thing. Realistically if I was saying, consequences, but I think what I was really saying was internal processing. Like, the internal processing was probably going to be huge for middle-grade, but the consequences probably are going to be very, very small. And I think that’s good differentiation to write as an adult writing to middle grade, is like, showing, you know, like, it’ll feels like it’s a big deal.

Rebecca: And the same event in different stories can have different impact. If you have, you know, your first love breakup in YA, that’s going to be huge internal processing, but probably really minimal consequences. However, if you are writing, let’s say, a historical fiction political thriller, then if you have a king and queen who hate each other, and she decides to finally leave him, that’s going to be huge consequences, but probably almost zero processing because she’s been done with him for decades.

So, yeah. This is why we’re talking about both separately. Because they can have two very different levels and appropriateness depending on the exact story, genre, audience, situation, protagonist, personality, all of those different aspects.

Agnes: So, back to our questions, apart from spotting the mistakes themselves, like we were just talking about, what type of external consequences are we hoping to see to know that we did a big event effectively? And I guess that can also be like the internal processing, I’m not sure.

Rebecca: Yeah. I would look at, again, making sure that it affects the next couple of choices—or noticeable choices—that the protagonist makes. If it does, then you're probably doing that well. If your big event creates big emotions in your protagonist, you're probably doing it well. If it takes them a half a scene, or a full scene or whatever, to get back to an emotional baseline—where they aren't actively excited and amped up, or they aren't actively scared and shutting down, whatever the case is—then you're probably doing it effectively.

Uh, let's see—if the big moment takes some build-up or set-up in some way, however subtly, there's a better chance that it's going to pay off. And we've talked about this a lot with deus ex machina, foreshadowing, and all of these kinds of things.

So specifically around what consequences you want to see—or are hoping to see to know that the big event was used effectively—it depends so heavily on the genre, and what that big event was, and what message you're trying to tell with your story, and how that event impacted your protagonist, that I don't have a blanket answer here. But just give it thought. When you're going through your list of big events, just take a moment and go: “Okay, if this happened in a book series that I love, what would I expect the consequences and reaction/processing to be? If this event happened in my individual real life, what would I expect the consequences and processing to be? If this happened in real life to someone I know who's very much like my protagonist, what would I expect the consequences and processing to be?” And you don't have to be true to any of those, but thinking about them can help you gauge where you want your story to fall in relation to those examples that you can kind of put yourself in their shoes for.

Agnes: You know, I like that you brought up, um, real-life events, because one of the things that I often think about—or what I was just thinking about—is how, um, in real life, consequences can be delayed. Like, we are not completely aware of them. So, what if the consequences are just delayed, and neither the reader nor the protagonist know what those consequences are until much later, or even later in the series? Is that okay in writing, just like it happens in real life? Or is that something that you would shy against?

Rebecca: So, you absolutely can do that, but it can be tricky to handle well. If you have heavily delayed consequences, it can make that big moment feel like it wasn't a big moment. So just be aware of that—that it might only be perceived by your readers as big in retrospect. One of the considerations there is, if you want your reactions or your consequences or processing to be delayed, your protagonist needs to be unaware of what the implications of the big event were. You can't delay the outcome for your readers without also delaying it for your protagonist. So, if you want to do that, just make sure that your protagonist is unaware of what these consequences are going to be, and unaware that they are going to have to process this later.

One other consideration here is: if you still want it to feel like a big moment, but you want to delay a particular aspect of the consequences or processing, I suggest giving it a sub-layer of consequences and processing that can still happen in that moment or immediately after. So, then you have a big moment, and you have the protagonist thinking that they have dealt with the consequences and processing—and then they go along their story—and then later, a previously unrecognized element of that big event is going to hit them in a much bigger way. And that can be incredibly powerful storytelling.

Agnes: So also, what are some good indications that we need to add more emotional weight and processing to a scene? Or vice versa?

Rebecca: I've definitely touched on this idea before—of making sure that your character's reactions are proportionate to whatever external thing is happening. If they don't react enough—if you don't show enough of that emotional weight and processing—your protagonist, or any other characters, can feel numb and like they aren't paying attention to what's happening. Which is going to distance readers. That's not what you want. You want them invested.

On the other side of that, if you show too much reaction or processing or emotional weight, it can make your protagonist, or any other characters, feel crazy or wildly overemotional or immature. There's a whole host of different ways that it can come across.

So again, I recommend gauging the “right amount” on your personal real lived experiences, observed reactions from people that you know who maybe have a similar emotional landscape to your protagonist, and from the other books in your genre that you've read. If you have an author that you think does emotions and character arcs and all of this really, really well in a similar genre to you, think about how they would handle it. If you were reading a new book of theirs that was essentially this plot and this moment with this protagonist, how would you expect them to be shown reacting? You don't have to match any of those. But again, having some instinctual idea of what the realistic—but not overblown—spectrum for how much processing and weight you give the emotions after a big moment, or in a big moment, can be very helpful in helping you decide if you are in that spectrum.

And to be clear, if you have a generally sort of, you know, serious, not-emotional character, it's fine to be on the very bottom end of that spectrum, but it still needs to be in the spectrum.

And on the other side, if you have a very emotional, passionate, feels-everything-intensely kind of character, it's fine to have them pushing the upper limits of that reaction, but it still needs to be in the spectrum.

Agnes: So that was kind of what my next question was going to be about—like, how do you know we got the editing right as far as the right amount of internal processing? And I like how you just kind of talked about how we compare it to real life examples. And I know, like in real life, sometimes after a big external event, we often struggle to process it right away. Is it okay—you know, kind of like, is it okay to have the external consequences delayed—is it okay to have the internal processing delayed in our big event?

Rebecca: Yeah. I think that how to best handle that depends a bit on your narrative style choices, which we did an episode on earlier in this series. If you have a very distant POV—so let's say omniscient—and you're never in your protagonist's embodied emotions, you're never in their internal thoughts, you can get away with this a lot more easily. You simply don’t mention it, and you maybe show very, very subtle changes in their behavior or decision-making process.

If you are in deep POV or close POV, which a lot of the work that I read, and edit, and write is, I think that you still need to do something. So, you need to show that they are repressing their emotions. You need to show them feeling an emotion and pushing it down. You need to show them starting to process and redirecting their thoughts or their attention. Because in the external consequences, the world, the arena, is in charge of that delay. When you're talking about the internal emotional processing, the only person in charge of that is your protagonist and/or their subconscious. So maybe you have a protagonist who has been conditioned their whole life to repress their emotions and not process things well. That’s fine. That is a great, valid, depth-adding character choice to make. However, you need to approach this intentionally. And you need to really—I don’t want to say “tell,” I don’t want to say “explain,” because “show, don’t tell” very much applies here—but you need to demonstrate in some way that the delayed process is because of their personality. Or because of the way that their brain works, or because of their emotional conditioning. That’s the main difference there: if you want to delay it, you need to give more reasons. And ideally, subtly, and not just telling the reader.

Agnes: And I think that can result in a character seeming very flat if you're not letting them know, “okay, this person has delayed emotional processing”—because then they’re going to be like, “This person is just… there.

Rebecca: “ Did they not notice what just happened? What's going on?”

Agnes: Yeah. We do need to wrap up. Um, I do have one last question, and the question is: so we know that there should be processing and consequences for everything—but do we need to have both an external consequence and internal processing for every big event?

Rebecca: It depends on what aspect the big event impacts. So, if the big event really only impacts the world and the plot or the arena—the physical space the story is playing out in—then it's fine to almost exclusively have external consequences.

If the big moment is, let's say, a moment of cognitive dissonance for your character where they finally realize that something they were holding a belief in isn't true, it is fine if all of your emphasis is on the internal processing.

So, it’s okay to have one or the other, but it really needs to match the nature of the big event.

If you have a big event that impacts both, you kind of need to have both consequences and processing following after it. So, it very much depends on the nature of the event and what kind of story you're telling. If you're telling an action-adventure, a lot more emphasis is going to be put on the external consequences. If you're telling a maturation, disillusionment plot, a lot more emphasis is going to be on the internal processing. So, it’s a good thing to think about, but you as an individual, every listener as an individual, needs to make that call for them and their individual story.

Agnes: Thank you so much for everything that you shared. I have been really enjoying this series, and I feel like the last two episodes that we have done have really been applicable to what I'm editing right at this moment. Anyway, thank you so much.

Rebecca: Absolutely. I very much enjoy this series as well. And it is genuinely so valuable to have an author who's going through this process be half of this conversation. Because it is a very different place to be in when you are going through the process and getting this advice from an external source than I could ever provide on my own. So, I very much appreciate you being here as well.

Next week, we are going to dedicate a whole episode to just checking and integrating our subplots and plot threads into a more cohesive, woven-together whole.

For right now, I really want to thank everyone who is following along with this series. We would really appreciate it if you could help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Authors Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series. I look forward to next week.

Agnes: Can't wait to chat with you then. See you then.

Rebecca: Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more or visit my website—linked in the description—to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Plot Twists: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 23

Tue, 10 Jun 2025 20:59:30 GMT

Episode 23 Overview:

Plot Twists

"Do I have at least one big twist in the story? An unexpected event or revelation that twists a significant belief or truth? Are my twists positioned well in the story for my genre and reader expectations?"

Do you want to learn how to write a great plot twist ? In today’s writing podcast for authors, we talk about how to improve story writing skills , specifically writing a good plot twist and spotting plot twist mistakes in self-editing.

This week in the Story Savvy Series, we explore the mechanics behind powerful plot twists and how to improve or add them. From foreshadowing to genre expectations, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell [hartboundediting.com] and author Agnes Wolfe [authorsalcove.com] guide writers through crafting plot twists that truly land.

Episode 23 of the 52-Week Story Savvy series offers a detailed breakdown of what makes a twist effective. Whether you're writing fantasy, literary fiction, mystery, or anything else, this episode will help you craft moments that shift your story’s direction and resonate with readers.

They also discuss:

Defining what really counts as a plot twist
The best places to use your biggest reveals
Mistakes that make twists fall flat
Subtle but effective foreshadowing
Why genre matters in deciding what plot twists to include
The emotional impact of twists on characters (and readers)

If you’ve ever worried your plot twists were predictable—or too much—this episode brings clarity and confidence to your editing process.

Recommended Resources:

Hart Bound Developmental Editing Services – [ https://hartboundediting.com ]
Authors’ Alcove Membership Community – [ http://authorsalcove.com ]
Book Giveaway – [ http://authorsalcove.org ]

See you next week for episode 24: Consequences & Processing

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 23 Transcript:

Plot Twists!

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 23 of the weekly Story Savvy series where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great, as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We have covered a bunch in this series so far, including last week's episode talking about mental health and self-care as writers and, you know, during the self-editing process. Today we are going to take a look at plot twists. By the end of this episode, you'll hopefully all feel confident defining your plot twists, checking them against your genre, deciding where you might need to put more in, and making sure that they all pay off well. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host Agnes Wolf.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi. I am an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later this year. Or actually, I'm now leaning more towards next year. And also, I am the host and founder of Authors Alcove. I'm here today to tackle plot twists with you and specifically how to self-edit around them.

Though I think most people know what a plot twist is, I always think it is a good idea to start with defining what exactly is considered a plot twist. Rebecca?

Rebecca: Sure. So, while an unexpected event from the arena, or the antagonist, or a secondary character can sometimes be a plot twist, more often it's a moment where the protagonist was wrong about something that really impacts how or in what direction they can move forward. So, in romance this could be the protagonist's friend turning out to be a rival for the love interest, or learning something about the love interest that deeply changes how the protagonist sees them, for better or for worse. In thrillers, this is often that the antagonist has more leverage or more power than the protagonist was understanding or was prepared to cope with when opposing them. And in a performance plot, a big twist plot twist might be that the protagonist's belief that they have no limits in their training for the big day and can just keep pushing forward gets broken along with their ankle, for example.

So, the defining properties for a plot twist, how I would present them are these. Number one, the twist does not come from the protagonist, but from some force or character outside of them and outside of their control. Number two would be there is a clear pinpoint moment of reveal. Ideally one sentence or one paragraph that you can point to as “that right there is the plot twist. That's where things get flipped.” Number three is it is unexpected enough that the protagonist needs a moment to adjust Be that in their mindset or their emotions, or their goals, their plans, anything else that's important.

Fourth requirement is that it upsets some expectation or prediction that the reader held ideally alongside the protagonist. This one comes with a little bit of a caveat because you don't have to surprise the reader for it to work as a plot twist, but it does need to surprise the protagonist. So, it's great if you can do both. But don't stress yourself on surprising the reader. If they can see it coming, that means that you're doing a good job of setting it up, and that's okay.

The fifth and final requirement for what defines a plot twist is it has to fundamentally change how the rest of the story after that can proceed. If the plot twist doesn't change anything, it doesn't change how the protagonist pursues something or what they are pursuing, or who they are pursuing it with, or anything like that, then it's not really a twist because nothing came of it, if that makes sense.

Agnes: Definitely, that makes sense. So, I know like in my favorite genres, which are generally fantasy, dystopian, whatever, there's usually a plot twist and usually it's a little bit bigger one. Is a plot twist important for all genres or are there different plot twist expectations for different genres?

Rebecca: Absolutely. So first, they don't all have to be big. And I'm glad that we're addressing this early on in the episode. Plot twists do not have to be enormous, but I realize that that's going to be a lot of what we are talking about today, talking about those global climax sort of plot twist moments.

But every story, regardless of genre, should have at least a couple of small ones, and a mix of big and small ones for the genres where that's appropriate is always a good idea. So, for your question specifically, yes, plot twists are important at all genres, but to widely, wildly varying degrees. Each genre is going to have different expectations around how big the plot twist should be, how many are needed to satisfy those specific readers, where to put them in the story, and so on.

Some genres, such as mystery or others like you mentioned, absolutely mandate at least one huge plot twist right in the climax, or maybe leading up to it, as well as a handful of really noticeable smaller plot twists throughout the story. It's an expectation of the genre. Others, such as literary fiction, for example, have much lower expectations, to the point where readers probably don't even think about plot twists being part of that genre. But having small scene-level plot twists here and there is always going to help with interest, investment, and everything else. For example, even the worst literary fiction book I've ever read, which was actually for the Authors Alcove review group that we were doing for a little while.

Agnes: I know which one you’re talking about.

Rebecca: Yeah, it still had some well executed plot twists towards the end, and they were some of the only redeeming features of that story to my perspective.

So regardless of your genre, you're going to have a spectrum of what's expected and what's acceptable. And again, knowing your genre and going back to some of your favorites and just making a mental note of the plot twists you can come up with is going to help you gauge whether or not you're meeting those expectations.

Agnes: And for the record, I actually did like that book. I want to make that clear. We disagreed, but I know which one you're talking about because actually when I was preparing for one of our future episodes, I'm going to be referencing that exact same book because I remember how you felt about it and I think we're going to be actually talking about why it did not work. And maybe you might actually be touching on it this week too.

But anyway, so in my first book, my biggest twist comes at the very end, when you realize that a character is not who they really think they are. And I know you talked about some of them needing to be at the end and then being smaller, so that's good.

But when should a plot twist, like the big plot twist, happen? Should this happen at the same beat or a point in a story? Or can it vary?

Rebecca: Again, know what's expected in your genre. For a huge plot twist, one that turns the entire world or the protagonist's mindset on its head, it's often best to put it at one of the big three story moments in the global story, namely: the turning point, which I will often refer to as the midpoint shift in the crisis, which can overlap with the Dark Night. So, it's the big moment where the protagonist realizes that they were significantly wrong about something. Or in the climax. If it's a big plot twist, it's going to feel like a big moment in the story, so, lining it up with where you intended the big moments in the story to be is good advice. For smaller plot twists, I suggest putting them in at one of those three moments, but at the scene or chapter level, not at the global level. So, at the chapter turning point, or crisis, or climax, which you might also be looking at as the core event. Lastly, plot twists generally work better later in a story rather than earlier.

The longer you have to build up the front end of the of the twist before flipping it, generally, the better it will land. I don't want to discourage folks from using small plot twists throughout if that's what they're going for, if that works for their story, but thinking of the distribution roughly as a bell curve coming up gradually through the first half, peaking through the climax, and then tapering off back down through the resolution can be very helpful in deciding where you want to put them.

Agnes: So, I know, I think one of the main reasons you were not really a big fan of that one book is because there were seeds, so to speak, or like little hints towards plot twists that never actually ended up happening. Plus, there were plot twists that happened that didn't necessarily have enough evidence. So, I know that those are some of the things that you're probably going to discuss.

But as an editor, what are some of the most common mistakes you see authors do when they try to do a plot twist unsuccessfully?

Rebecca: So those two are great to start off with of; setting up a plot twist that never happens, or doing a plot twist that never got set up. So, some other common mistakes might be it comes across like Deus ex Machina, which I would refer folks back to episode 20 for, and that can overlap very heavily with that plot twist that never got set up kind of approach.

Another might be that the protagonist doesn't treat the plot twist like a plot twist, and they just continue on as expected. If your protagonist isn't giving your reader cues of, “hey, this was a plot twist, something just got flipped on its head,” then the reader isn't going to get that impression from that plot point or conversation or whatever it was.

And then lastly, the mistake is that there was never any buildup establishing that the protagonist knew, thought, or believed option A before the twist reveals that things are actually option B. So, it feels like you're just establishing the facts.

This is a little bit hard to describe, so let me try to give an example here. Let's say that in chapter 10, you want to reveal that the protagonist's friend is also trying to seduce the love interest. That's only a plot twist if before chapter 10, you have solidly established that this friend is a good friend to the protagonist and swearing up and down that they aren't going after the love interest. If, however, this friend doesn't really have this conversation or set up expectations otherwise, then when you get to chapter 10, it's not a plot twist, it's going to come across just as, “oh, okay, that's how things are.”

So, making sure that you've set up a belief in one direction before you twist it to the other is really, really important.

Agnes: And I feel like foreshadowing is an essential part of that, I think. How can we make sure that when we hint towards a plot twist that we're doing so subtly, not so obvious, but also obvious enough that it's not too subtle, if that makes sense.

Rebecca: Yes, practice is a big part of this, but yes, surprising but inevitable is the phrase that I will try to keep bringing up in regards to this, and that idea of having things only clear when you look back at it. So, a couple of pointers for that would be:

Number one, stay very grounded in your protagonist's point of view and let them misinterpret the facts or the hints, make them certain that they are correct right up until that twist, when they realize that it was their own fallibility, and false beliefs, and mistakes that got them on the wrong path, despite the truth being right there to be seen if they just interpreted correctly.

Second suggestion would be: seed that foreshadowing on the peripheries only. Only mention those hints in passing, or dismissively, or off to the side of whatever core conversation is happening in a given scene. Essentially, include all of the hints that you want, but don't ever let your protagonist look directly at them, metaphorically speaking. Be that in their literal POV, what they are literally describing they are looking at, or in what they are taking the time to think about, or talk about, or having things affect their goals and their decision making. Keep everything off to the side.

Pointer three would be make sure that every hint for the foreshadowing you provide is tied to something in the moment which has nothing to do with the eventual twist reveal. So if your twist is going to be that the antagonist kidnapped the protagonist's wife in a thriller, connect the fact that this wife is not answering the protagonist's phone calls with being because of a big fight they had in chapter one that got him kicked out or whatever, so that when he's calling her and she's not picking up, he's only associating that with the fight, with the interpersonal conflict until it's revealed, “oh, that's not what the cause was.” So, giving a plausible excuse in the moment that is incorrect but believable can be a great way to sort of misdirect while still clearly foreshadowing things that are to come.

So essentially, all three of these pieces of advice, any other that I might come up with, are: use the limitations of your point of view choices very intentionally, as readers are well trained to match their thinking, their priorities and expectations to those of the protagonist when done well, which you can use to your advantage when you're trying to set up plot twists without giving them away.

Agnes: So, what are some signs that your plot twist was well done? So, we kind of talked about like the mistakes because I know that we are often very in love with our own words and our own story and we know things very well. So like, to us, everything seems well executed until we have other eyes on it. How can we look at it and say, “oh, this is well executed,” or signs it isn't needs fixing?

Rebecca: Sure. So, most of this episode is about mistakes to watch for. So, I'll try to just answer that question of: how can you look at a plot twist and know that it's fine, you don't need to work on it.

First would be a plot twist is well executed when it genuinely shocks the protagonist, and their shock feels grounded and realistic in that moment. This can be at the level of their whole world is now falling apart, or it can just be at the level of “well, this made my day,” or “this ruined my day,” kind of level, depending on how big the twist is and how big the reaction can be in connection. The point is that it has to have some little moment of “I was not prepared to deal with this and now I have to.”

The second point to look for is a plot twist is probably working well if it forces the protagonist to regain their balance in some metaphorical way, and it changes the way that they move towards their end goal from that moment in a clear way. Even if it's a small clear way.

Third point is it's probably working well if you as the writer have built up clear understandings and beliefs to the contrary of the truth, through your protagonist, so that there is an established belief, or reality, or truth to then flip upside down in the twist. And again, this applies to the huge twists and the tiny ones.

Fourth suggestion or way to spot this is: your plot twist is probably working if the amount of buildup and foreshadowing, emphasis, reaction, everything like that to the twist are proportional with the impact the twist reveal has on the protagonist's internal self—so, their beliefs and emotions—or the impact that it has on the external world so the plot and the arena that they are playing it out in.

Fifth marker to watch for would be: your plot twist is probably working if the twist can't be ignored. Once it happens, it is reacted to, acted on, or actively navigated in some other way and the protagonist cannot avoid engaging with what was just revealed or what just happened.

Lastly—for trying not to repeat myself too much here—a plot twist works when it can't be undone. When the reveal or action is permanent in some way. And, even if the protagonist can return themselves or their world to equilibrium on whatever scale is relevant, it has to be by pushing forward and can't be done, accomplished—that return to equilibrium—by reversing the twist in some way. So, for example, trying to clarify this, if the twist is that a friend is actually the villain, the protagonist can over time redeem the villain and rebuild a friendship with them if that's the direction you want to go. But they cannot become friends again by immediately forgetting or ignoring the fact that the friend hurt them and betrayed them in the first place in that that twist reveal. Otherwise, it's not going to land right. I know that this isn't super clear or tangible, but hopefully that's still helpful.

Yeah. So, if a, if a plot twist is working in at least most of these ways, if not all, then that's a pretty good sign that you've got it pretty solid and you can spend your time and energy elsewhere.

Agnes: I think one of the things that really stuck out to me is when you said it cannot be reversible. That like really stuck out to me. But I do want to ask is it possible to have too many plot twists? I have heard readers say that they felt like they got whiplash, and I don't know if that's what they're referring to while reading. What number of plot twists should we aim for? And is it possible to have too many?

Rebecca: Sure. So, if someone were to give me the feedback that they were getting whiplash, that's not the first thing that I would reach for, but we'll hopefully cover that in other topics.

So, to answer your question specifically, absolutely. You can't have too many plot twists if you are trying to do a noticeable significant plot twist in every chapter or anywhere near that often in a full-length novel, it's too many. For subgenres and niches with the lowest plot twist expectations, like literary, like contemporary romance, things like that, I recommend one to three plot twists.

For most middle-ground genres—it's a bell curve, so a lot of genres fall in the middle ground—I recommend three to five solid, tangible, nameable plot twists.

And then for plot twist centric genres and subgenres, I recommend at least three, but probably no more than about ten. And that's for the genres where ‘twisty’ is the goal with Very few twists, it's not a twisty book. With roughly three to seven twists or so you can make the book seem twisty if that's what you're going for. But once you go over that curve and have too many twists, the very fact of twists is going to start feeling predictable, and expected, and boring and there's going to start paying off less, and less, and less, and start feeling more exhausting than rewarding. So, I suggest looking at strengthening the twists that you have or adding just a couple more if you want some really good, strong, plot twists for whatever reason, rather than simply trying to add as many as you possibly can to try to meet that same, maybe, impression of your story or pay off for your readers.

Agnes: So, I feel like plot twists can be very foundational to your story and that having a plot twist is going to affect so many other parts of your story. What other aspects of a story are most closely connected with plot twists? And I'm thinking like, what might we mess up if we aren't careful in creating the plot twist or the other way around?

Rebecca: I'd say keep an eye on a small handful of things.

Number one is your intensity and everything I went over around that in episode 18. Making sure that you're maintaining whatever flow you wanted to with your plot twists, whether you're adjusting them or adding them in account.

Number two would be: it very much affects your protagonist's character arc. So, make sure that the twist fits the escalating progression of that protagonist's change progress, and where they are in their arc at that moment when the twist happens.

Third would be: your antagonist or your force of antagonism. Make sure that your twist is a good fit with how you have designed them and how you want them to pay off. And I most often see a mistake around this in that there are too many reveals of the antagonist. Someone is trying to use more than one twist reveal that the antagonist is in fact the antagonist. If you really want it to be impactful and pay off, you get to do that once, so make sure that it works well with the whole antagonist’s character arc and where you want each thing to happen.

Lastly, probably just make double sure that you aren't creating or missing any plot holes around any given plot twist. And make sure that if a reader really picks apart the whys and hows of the twist once they get there, it's at least very hard for them to find a small plot hole around it. That's about the most most can hope for.

Agnes: So, I know we need to wrap up here, but I do have one last question for you. Is there a well-known plot twist that you feel has been widely accepted as great by readers? Or on the flip side, is there a well-known plot twist that you felt… lacked, for your readers and why?

Rebecca: So, I don't have any books coming immediately to mind, but the Star Wars plot twist of “Luke, I am your father,” is a fantastic example of a perfectly executed plot twist. And everyone's seen it, so I'll use that as my good example there. Why I feel like it works so well, is that it totally breaks the protagonist's worldview in that moment. It flips the power dynamic, and the balance of power, and the assumed alliances between these main players on its head in a snap. And it profoundly affects how the story goes on from that point for the protagonist and for the world. And it is instantly accepted in canon without too much mental strain. When people are watching those movies, they don't go, “that's not believable,” they go, *gasp*, because it was set up enough and it's believable and it's grounded, but it's still a big shock. So that's my good example.

As far as bad twists go, I don't think that I have an example here because I'm not sure that I would see a failed plot twist as such. I don't think that I would read the page or the paragraph or the sentence and go, “oh, this was supposed to be a plot twist, but it failed.” It's far more likely that I would define that moment as a character acting unrealistically if they are reacting like it's a plot twist when we all saw it coming a mile away and it doesn't pay off that way. Or I would define it as deus ex machina, or a spot where the intensity needs to be brought up to a higher level. Or I would define it as withholding too much information from the reader when the protagonist clearly knows more than they're letting on. Anything like that.

So, when a plot twist doesn't work, it's usually for a definable reason beyond “this plot twist didn't work,” which my brain is much more likely to latch onto.

Agnes: So, I think what I hear from you is—I know I have often said that whenever I talk to development editors, they often say that our editing needs to be a lot smaller than like we generally think. And I know, like, when you do say, I cannot say do…

Rebecca: Deus ex machina.

Agnes: Yes, yes, that word. I'm just gonna say deus, because that's all I know. So, I know, like… back up here. So, I think that as a writer, if we do end up having like a beta reader or our development editor point out something like saying that it is a deus ex machina, *laughter* that that that might be a cue to us that we didn't set up our plot twist well. That's kind of what I'm hearing from you. Would you agree with that?

Rebecca: I am definitely one of those developmental editors who generally tries to reassure writers and authors that the changes don't take as much as you might think. I don't recommend rewriting your manuscript from scratch. I don't think that is called for 99% of the time. Fixing something like a climax, massive plot twist that doesn't pay off right—whether that is the reader and protagonist can see it coming since the midpoint, or deus ex machina, where it didn't get built up enough—it is absolutely a matter of dropping in a couple of words here and there and shifting how one scene plays out to illustrate a mindset shift or a goal establishment for your protagonist. It is very much a sentence here and a paragraph there and taking something here and moving it there and tweaking a sentence. You almost never have to go back to the drawing board. It's more a matter of taking what you want to do and what you actually have on the page and finding the maybe one, maybe twenty spots where you just need to draw a little bit of a link between that ideal and the reality. That's very much all it takes. So, I'm really glad you brought that up.

Agnes: Yeah. Well, I'm actually pointing out from my own, like, self-editing my own book from your developmental editing is like, there were, there have been a few times where I'm like, “oh, I don't think I set that up. That's why she says this.” And so, and I don't have to do much. I just am like, “okay, so what can I do?” And then I end up going back into my manuscript and just adding little details here and there. So that's why I'm actually thinking of my own work when I say that.

Rebecca: That works great for this podcast. So, I'm all into it.

Agnes: Well, thank you so much for your insight. It has helped me so much. Anyway, I've been really appreciating and loving this entire series.

Rebecca: Awesome. Well, next week we will go over consequences and processing in our stories. So, kind of the other side of that plot twist moment, you've got buildup and foreshadowing, and then you've got consequences and processing. So, we'll be talking about the other side of that mountain next week to make sure that you know, you can check to see if you have enough, if you have too much, and if it's working well in your self-editing.

For now, I would really like to thank everyone for following along with this series. We would really appreciate it if you could help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Author's Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series. I'll see you next week.

Agnes: Can't wait to chat next week as well. See you then.

Rebecca:

Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more, or visit my website linked in the description to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Mental Health & Self Care: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 22

Tue, 03 Jun 2025 22:18:02 GMT

When the world is collapsing around us, but we need to self-edit...

I apologize for my somewhat repetitive phrasing referencing "the state of the world." Hopefully this episode is still helpful to everyone!

I also just want to add a disclaimer that neither Agnes nor I are mental health professionals. If you are genuinely in crisis, please call your local crisis helpline, or a trusted friend or family member.

Episode 22 Overview:

Mental Health & Self-Care

"When mental health becomes a factor in our editing and other creative endeavors, how can or should we balance that with our goals and obligations?"

This week in the Story Savvy Series , we explore writing and emotional healing and mental health for writers. So, let’s join together as we discuss writer self-care. From burnout and perfectionism to grief and PTSD, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell [hartboundediting.com] and author Agnes Wolfe [authorsalcove.com] discuss how to care for your mental well-being while editing your book.

Episode 22 of the 52-Week Story Savvy series offers compassionate insight for writers navigating emotional challenges. Whether you're overwhelmed by deadlines or struggling to touch your manuscript after loss, this episode validates your journey and provides real, usable advice.

They also discuss:

How to know when to step back from editing
The impact of ADHD and PTSD on the writing process
Self-imposed deadlines vs. mental wellness
Healthy community and support systems for writers
The surprising power of changing small story details for healing

Whether you're self-publishing or traditionally publishing, this episode is your reminder that your well-being comes first —and your story will wait.

Recommended Resources:
A uthors’ Alcove Membership Community – http://authorsalcove.com
Book Giveaway – http://authorsalcove.org

See you next week for episode 23: Plot Twists!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 22 Transcript:

Mental Health & Self-Care

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello, and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is Episode 22 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We have covered a bunch in this series so far, including last week's episode with Jenna Doyle on self-editing to land in your word count sweet spots.

Today, we are going to do something a little bit different and take a break week in this series to talk about mental health and self-care during the self-editing process. The hope with this episode is simply to validate, and maybe offer some tools, to any of our listeners who are facing burnout, or pessimism, or other mental health struggles, kind of how you and I both are right now in our lives. And joining me to ask all of these questions and discuss this topic with me is my regular co-host and my friend, Agnes Wolfe, and I'm so happy to have you back on the show.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, I am so glad to be back. And as she said, I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy actually next year. And that's actually part of why I decided to do that—was because of mental health. I had a family tragedy happen, and it has really affected me. And she (Rebecca) has been gracious enough to allow me to take this time off. Thank you very much. But anyway, I'm really glad we're talking about this today, as I think this topic is—for us—important, but also for all of our listeners as well.

Rebecca: Absolutely.

Agnes: Anyway, thank you so much for having me on here. This topic most excites me because I get to talk to you not as an editor—though I am sure you have insight from that as well—but also as a fellow writer. Being someone whose diagnosis has spanned from PTSD, Major Depressive Disorder, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, ADHD—and yes, I do think that although that is not technically a mental health diagnosis, it definitely plays a huge part in my mental health—and I also have a multitude of inflammatory diseases, and I think that also is a huge impact on mental health as well. So, this topic is very near and dear to my heart. And I know you were the one who had mentioned we should add this topic, so it must be near and dear to yours as well.

What made you to decide to bring this up to me and discuss this in our series?

Rebecca: Yes, so mental health is just kind of a topic that's on everyone's mind right now.

And my personal, sort of, palette of those is definitely depression, I've struggled with suicidal ideation in the past, lots of anxiety, and PTSD. So, I feel like addressing this now is really valuable for where we are in the wider world, but also, I find that about halfway through any given project is where I start feeling the most discouraged. So doing this topic about halfway through this year-long series also feels like it's appropriate—and hopefully helpful too—to anyone who's working through their self-editing with us.

Beyond that, most of the writers that I'm talking to in my life, in my profession right now, are really struggling with all-encompassing burnout from the state of the world. And that obviously is going to affect all of our creative or productive endeavors, like writing and editing.

Lastly, mental health is just a big focus in my life right now, and it was starting to feel, over the last few weeks, like I kind of needed to talk about this with you and with our clients before we could really move on to other topics.

Agnes: So, I know I struggle a lot with mental health issues, as I've already mentioned—especially depression, which is exacerbated by ADHD and just everyday life. During a depressive episode, I have this huge catch-22, and I don't think that I'm unique. Usually, I am too depressed to feel motivated to write or self-edit—in this case, because I am done with the writing process, I'm self-editing or anything. And I'm going to be honest, after my significant family tragedy, I have not touched my book except for twice in this past week. But I also know that if I write, then I begin to feel better. So, it is a catch-22. Like, if I write, I will feel better, but I don't want to write because I'm not feeling good. So, for you personally, when you have gone through your down spells, do you take a break from writing, or do you force yourself to just write? What do you suggest in general?

Rebecca: Yeah, so I've definitely been there, and I can't say that I have a right choice in response to that by any measure. But I usually respond in one of three ways when I'm in a depressive episode.

Option one is absolutely to take a step back entirely. Especially when so many of the factors causing the slump are external, like they are right now in the world. I feel it's really valuable to remember, at least for myself, that rest is resistance to whatever is happening in your life that's hurting you, and to listen to what your creativity is asking for even if that's a break, or total rest, or reading to remind yourself that stories are fun.

The second thing that I will sometimes do which I can reasonably recommend to others if it sounds like a good idea is to find some way to keep writing or otherwise working on stories in a silly way that has nothing to do with whatever I'm really working on at the moment. So, for example, right now in my life, I am working on a silly Viking series that has zero pressure. And I am just brainstorming it, and I'm reading in the genre, and I'm coming up with funny little ideas because that's where my creativity is landing right now. And it keeps me engaged with my identity as a storyteller and keeps those mental muscles in shape, to some extent, in a positive way that doesn't have whatever burden I'm feeling with my official project at the moment.

The third option for me is definitely not a healthy one, but our listeners are probably mostly adults and can make their own decisions. But sometimes, when I'm in a really bad place mentally, it's amazing how much writing productivity I can get done as an outlet for the pointless anger of my depression. It never helps the depression. It does not get me closer to coming out of the down spell. But man, it can feel really, really nice to look at the finished outline, or a bunch of checkmarks on my self-editing list and know that I got something out of the shitty headspace. That it wasn't entirely pointless.

Agnes: So, I had kind of reflected on your second one where you said about writing something silly, and maybe because mine is a little bit more on the silly side, I actually ended up writing something very serious while I was struggling. And so, for me, it's just kind of that switching of gears—and it's actually, I didn't think about it at the time, but it's actually a mental health story that I'm working on. It's an adult story. But I think sometimes even just switching gears can help you. Like if you're in a really silly space, then go to the—you know—like swapping.

But speaking of creativity and all of that, I do think that there is some truth to creativity and mental health struggles and how they often go hand in hand. And I think there are a lot of reasons for that, such as people who went through childhood trauma may have dissociated or daydreamed a lot in order to get through that trauma. Also, I think that people who have gone through mental health struggles—my chair is squeaky—anyway, I think that people who have gone through mental health struggles become more compassionate and understanding, and I think that actually fuels some of our writing as well. Do you feel that mental health issues can actually be an asset to writing or even self-editing?

Rebecca : So, while I can't argue with my personal experiences with that and the common testimony to that in the writer ethos, I personally think that it's dangerous to romanticize mental health struggles. Especially as authors.

The idea that depression is this creative muse is deeply ingrained in our literary mythos, but I've personally found that to also be dangerous. When that belief is held, it can be too easy to avoid seeking our own health, and happiness, and healing because we hold our creative outpouring—or literary legacy, how you're going to be remembered through your stories—in a higher value than those self-care things, even if it's subconsciously.

So, I think that if you have that kind of background or deal with those ongoing struggles and want to use that in your writing, I highly encourage you to do so. But I would also warn everyone away from seeking trauma, or mental health spirals, or avoiding treatment, rest, support, healing, anything like that, in pursuit of creativity or better writing.

I'm sure a dozen literary heroes of the ages will turn over in their graves to hear me say this, but your life and happiness are more important than your story or stories. If you have to pick between them, the world is an infinitely better place with a happier, healthier version of you and none of your books. And when you're thinking about that relationship, I really, really want everyone to hold onto that.

Agnes: I really agree with you. I agree with you 100%. And I know that that's something that we talk about—is that I would rather you deal with your mental health than us push through even the self-editing. And we're probably going to talk a little bit about that in just a little while.

But I want to make sure we're staying on task of what we were going to talk about. And so, one of the things that I have run into with interviewing, I've interviewed well over 100 authors, all from nonfiction, fiction, fantasy, fantasy and the like. I think 30 of them have been through the fantasy realm. But the thing that I hear the most frequent, that people struggle with, even people who do not struggle with mental health issues, is imposter syndrome. In fact, I can say the whole reason I did not truly work on my book until I was in my 40s is 100% because of imposter syndrome. Like, I didn't think that I was worthy of writing a book.

So, is that something that you have struggled with? And how have you experienced it as an editor talking to your people, and how do you push through those feelings of self-doubt?

Rebecca: I have very much experienced that—and not just in the writing, but in plenty of different arenas in my life.

There are a few thoughts that have really, really helped me, and I can't say that they'll help everyone, but if someone has a personality and mindset like mine, hopefully it will.

First of all, was this phrase I probably got from a meme on Facebook that just said, "Anything that's worth doing is worth doing poorly." And that was a game-changer for me. Because we've all heard the expression, "Anything that's worth doing is worth doing well." But that puts so much pressure on it—of, “well, if you're going to do it at all, you should do it 100%. You should do it the best you possibly can.” And that can be exhausting and really, really discouraging. So this mindset of “anything that's worth doing is worth doing poorly,” gives so much more grace. Because, you know, taking care of your body is worth doing, even if you can only do a shower and eat one vegetable in a day. It's still worth doing, even if you're kind of shitty at it.

And that very much applies to writing. That applies to self-editing. That applies to publishing and networking with other authors. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing at whatever level you can currently do it at even if, to your perspective, it's kind of poorly. So that was one of the biggest tips for dealing with imposter syndrome that I ever found.

Another one is to take the financial, or accolades, or any other success markers off the table until you've already done what you can with whatever step you're working at. So, if you are planning a book, don't think about, “Oh well, this isn't a Nobel Prize-winning book,” or “This isn't a bestselling New York Times list story idea.” Take that off the table. Finish outlining. And then you can maybe spend a day thinking about those pressure aspects and revising to meet them. But if your imposter syndrome is sitting there telling you, “This isn't good enough for…” or “This doesn't qualify for…whatever”—fill in the blanks—then taking those off the table and deciding that you're writing for the sake of writing, or you're going to publish so that three people will buy and read your book, then that can help a lot with embodying what you're trying to do and how you want to identify through this process, and getting it done rather than sitting there stressing about it for ages.

And then, legitimately, one of the best pieces of advice that I've got is going and reading bits of the worst traditionally published books out there—according to your friends, according to the internet, whatever you can find—and then read through them and cringe and laugh and judge your way into a mindset of, “Jeez, if this blowhard asshole who writes like a misogynistic ten-year-old can get published by a Big Five publisher and get hundreds of reviews that aren't one-star… I definitely can.” Because boy, that is a game-changer.

Agnes: My husband actually has a particular author that he always tells me whenever I feel discouraged. He goes, “Well, it…” (I'm not going to say the name), “if he can be published,” he goes, “I think that you’ll be just fine.”

And it is somebody who’s very, very, like—I don’t want to say it because I’m afraid it’ll be somebody’s favorite author or somebody.

Rebecca: You’ll notice I didn’t name any names, but they’re out there, and you can find those lists.

Agnes: I will say this—and maybe this will be a clue to if you love him—is he uses the word ‘burgeoning’ a lot.

Rebecca: It doesn’t ring a bell for me, but it might for one of our listeners.

Agnes : I’ll tell you afterwards. How about—okay.

And this kind of goes along with what we just talked about—so one of the mental health topics I think we should talk about is perfectionism. Because I know when I was younger, perfection—I was a huge perfectionist. I was a straight-A student. And I actually will tell people this: that one of the main reasons why I am not, like, pro traditional school—schooling—is because I was a perfectionist and I got straight A’s. I got straight A’s in college. I got straight A’s in high school. I was a perfectionist. And I don’t think that’s healthy. So that is my perspective. As I’ve gotten older, I have been able to relax a little bit and realize that, you know, I don’t have to be perfect. I can be good enough.

Do you feel that perfectionism has affected you in your own writing, and do you see this happening in any of the writers that you work with?

Rebecca: For sure. I didn’t go through a traditional schooling route, but I was still a perfectionist, absolutely, growing up. That applied to dance, that applied to the horse shows that I would do, that applied to craft projects, embroidery—everything was perfectionism.

So, in my own work, it was largely helped—that perfectionism block was helped—by the same things that helped my imposter syndrome. As well as reminding myself constantly that there was no way to get around the fact that I would improve as a writer over time. And writing a million words was kind of the first really notable hurdle in that, which I just couldn’t cheat. I could not achieve that on my first 125,000-word book.

So, I also promised myself, based off of that, that on the ten-year anniversary of my first series starting to be published, I could do a relaunch with totally revamped books, new covers, everything like that. I have no idea if I will follow through on that, but promising myself that I would have permission from myself, and I could put in the work, and once I was a better writer I could rewrite this first story that meant so much to me, allowed me to let go of my work knowing that it was as good, as close to perfect, as I could make it then, as I can make it now. Even if I could have made it more perfect if I’d kept picking at it for another decade before publishing it.

As for clients who I have seen struggle with aspects of perfectionism, there has been a huge variety in exactly how that has shown up in my interactions with clients. So, I’ll just offer some random thoughts based on a couple that come to mind.

First, if you think your book is perfect, I love that for you. However, never show it to another human being if you want to maintain that. Definitely, definitely don’t ask another writer or a professional editor or anyone to critique it for you, to give you constructive feedback. They will find flaws—sometimes many flaws—and having a mindset that you have already perfected it dooms you to have a very bad time with that experience. One of the authors that I critique-swapped with very early on, long before I started professionally developmental editing, really deeply struggled with this. And I often wonder how on earth they coped with the reality of getting book reviews as an author after you publish. It is impossible to release a book into the world and not have people offering opinions. And they are not all going to be favorable.

So, in that aspect of perfectionism, you really, really need to accept that perfect is not possible—because everyone is an individual who will bring their own perspective and own opinions to the table.

Second, yeah—basically no round of editing, be it self-editing or professional editing, can take a manuscript from rough to perfect. You can only ever aim for a solid and noticeable improvement, and then do another round, and another round, and another round until the diminishing returns on the time and energy spent doing the next round tips the scales into “okay, this is good enough, let’s wrap it up,” territory. This wasn’t necessarily something that a client of mine struggled with, but something that I had to figure out in my early self-editing and in my early professional editing days. You really do sometimes have to clear away one whole layer of issues before you can see the next layer of issues beneath that clearly enough to address them. And that’s okay.

Lastly, on this particular topic: perfect really can be the enemy of good. I’ve had a few clients deliver perfectly formatted manuscripts without a single typo, omitted comma, or grammar error, where every single potential plot hole was very carefully explained and patched in minute detail. And they’d been working on this piece for decades. But the plot fell flat. Or the world-building was boring. Or the character arcs were really off or uncomfortable. They spent literal years of their lives making every line of this story perfect without putting any or enough thought, and effort, and time into whether the story was good. I promise you that your line editor, your copy editor, your proofreader, your ARC readers will help you catch any typos or wording issues that readers truly care about after publication. What everyone needs to put a lot more focus on during the self-editing stages—especially as a first-time author, especially if you’re early in this self-editing process—is making sure that the story you are telling works and is good, rather than making sure it doesn’t have any typos. And a lot of the times, if you’re a first-time author and you’re working on this stuff, good is good enough. You are not going to reach perfection until you’ve written—whatever—a million words, ten books, you’ve gone through three different developmental editors and found your perfect copy editor and all this kind of stuff.

So: good is good enough.

Agnes: And if you think about—like, so I—growing up, I was a painter, and one of the things that my aunt, who was my paint teacher—I don’t know what the name of that is. An artist teacher? I don’t know. But anyway, so she was my paint teacher, and one of the things that she had said was that there's no mistakes in art. And I—you know, obviously there are mistakes in writing and that, and such—but I think that what her point was is that sometimes, sometimes what you see as a mistake ends up being something that brings value to it.

And like, I love hearing—you know, I’m a very—I’m a Potterhead. And I love hearing, like, the Harry Potter mistakes and those sorts of things—and the Lord of the Rings mistakes too. Because those things are kind of what endear me to actually want to reread it.

And so I think that sometimes those things that you’re like, “Oh my goodness, I can’t believe that I had this plot hole and I published it,” it might actually be something that other people might find endearing and be like, “Oh my goodness, I can’t believe I did not think about that the first time I read it, but the second time I read it, I saw it.” You know? That’s just a thought.

But going back to the questions, I know that one of the big reasons why I, um…

So I had decided that I wanted to be published by September 13 this year, which—there is no way I could possibly have done that, even if my—even if my dear family member had not passed away. And part of the reason for that is because I started to experience a lot of burnouts even before he had passed away. And so, I know that I needed to give myself a full another year.

So, my new date is September 13th of next year, which—it’s my mom’s birthday. It’s a Sunday, though, so I don’t know if I’m keen on publishing it on a Sunday. But my mom has been one of the huge encouragers in my life. But I… I started to experience a lot of burnout.

And have you noticed this happening in your own life, and how have you guarded against it?

Rebecca: I have burned out hard on a regular basis, and I do not have an answer for you.

The best I can offer is to refer you back to my answers to your second question of, you know, trying deep, intentional resting, finding a silly little side project, or keeping, you know, harnessing the power of spite, essentially. But seriously, if any listeners are struggling with burnout, I’m not the person who can help. I suggest reaching out to friends or family who you trust to give good advice. Go read some Brené Brown on the topic, or—if you can afford to—talk to a therapist. But this particular writer and editor is right down in the mud with you, and I haven’t cracked that code yet.

Agnes: So, I know one of the things that I have been told by my husband that has kind of helped me through burnout is he’s always asking me, “Is this a deadline or is this a self-imposed deadline?” And most of my stuff is self-imposed deadlines. And I find that I think I push myself too hard, and I think that’s somewhat of the perfectionism in me. And so, I adjust dates. So that’s why I adjusted my date to September 13th of next year—is because I still wanted that September 13th. And that gives me a whole ‘nother year to finish editing, find book cover artists, and do all of that fun stuff. That gives me plenty of time. I don’t have to rush. And then I can—I don’t have to, like—I can still do this. I can still do other things. I don’t have to let go of anything as well. But back to, like, not just burnout but, like, you know, generalized mental health stuff—if we were to—do you have any advice for dealing with larger or more generalized mental health stuff, like depression, anxiety, and, like, when it comes up, how it affects our work or us as a writer?

Rebecca: Yeah. So apart from my—my little soapbox about not romanticizing depression in the writing world—and as someone who very nearly didn’t finish my first book due to suicidal stuff—my thoughts are essentially these:

First, listen to your own body and emotions over any outside advice when it comes to your creativity and your mental health. Is the escape of reading, the organizational satisfaction of outlining, the flow of drafting, or the sense of accomplishment from self-editing easing your burden? Making everything a little bit easier to deal with? If so, amazing, wonderful. Lean into that. But only lean into that as long as it continues to feel that way. If it isn’t feeling that way, or stops feeling that way, experiment with how you can adjust your approaches or your processes to accommodate where your mental health is. Set your daily word count lower or make it a weekly word count goal instead. Find a totally different approach to your work with more organization or more chaotic freedom. Whatever is going to feel helpful to you.

The important thing to remember is that what you need right now is not what you will need forever. However you adjust your life and your work right now—when things are bad—is temporary. Adjusting your creative approach and/or listening to and respecting your needs for a break are not major life decisions. They are not deciding that you’re now going to be a lazy writer, or you can never achieve your dreams, or anything like that. They are simply deciding that this week, metaphorically, you are going to take the bus to work because your knee hurts. And if you stop walking to work for a week or two until it stops hurting, you will be back on track to keep walking to work every day after that and reach whatever steps-per-lifetime goal you have in that.

Agnes: Another topic of mental health that's really near and dear to my heart is—because I have an official diagnosis of it—I do think that it's… it… I have worked through a lot of it, but that is PTSD. And I do know—I wish I had your… because normally your book is right here. I like could grab it because… Oh! And the reason why it is usually right here when I’m at home (because I’m at a hotel right now) is because, starting June 1, I am starting my Summer Book Giveaway, and I am going to give away—I have not purchased the one that I’m going to be giving away yet, but I have my own copy that will be right here—that she signed. But I will be giving away her book, A Heart of Flame.

But I do remember that when I interviewed you for that particular book, you did talk about how writing it was both really triggering to your own PTSD and yet also super cathartic and therapeutic. So, I figured that was kind of worth addressing from a self-editing advice standpoint. What would… what are your thoughts on that?

Rebecca: So, I totally agree—and I'm delighted that you're going to do the giveaway!

But yeah, it was super triggering for me to write that first book in my series, and to a slightly lesser degree, the second and third. But it was also incredibly healing to process through those topics and interactions and aspects, and to feel like I was sharing my experiences in a way that might help others. So having gone through that process, my advice on that is roughly this:

Number one: It's okay not to want to write about topics that trigger your PTSD. You do not owe that emotional labor to the world. So, if that's the end of this conversation for you, that’s great. Hold onto that. Do what's right for you.

Number two: If you choose to write about these things, know your why in doing so—very strongly. Do you want to be truly and deeply understood by the wider world, by the people who read your story? Do you want to fix a common misconception about the kind of situation or acute trauma that you experienced? Do you want to create representation around what you experienced, in a gap of general awareness about it? Or do you want to—as I did—show people going through the same thing how to cope with that and move on from it? Knowing your why will keep you grounded in the point of sharing your trauma, rather than drowning in it without direction and letting it just bog you down.

Number three: Set aside time to deal with those chapters. That might be planning, drafting, editing—whatever capacity you have to come back to them in, make space for that. Don’t try to address those chapters on your lunch break at work, or on a road trip with your family, or that kind of thing. Treat the time you spend with those raw parts of you as sacred. Whatever that means to you, however you want to interpret that.

Number four is: Change details. This is such an important one. I really, really can’t stress this enough. If your trauma included a red car, make it a blue truck in your book. If your trauma story includes sobbing backstage at play rehearsals, no—now in the book, it happened out back of a diner. This was actually a suggestion from my therapist at the time that I was writing my first book, and it was incredibly helpful. By changing those surface-level details without changing the dialogue or the emotional impact, it allowed me to do exactly what I wanted to in regard to my purpose around my trauma, but to do so in a way that left my real life alone. And gave me just enough distance from the fictional events that I was able to go over them again, and again, and again with only a couple of deep breaths in preparation. So, I hope that's helpful to any listeners that applies to.

Agnes: I really like the changing the details slightly. One of the books—the adult book that I’m writing—does have some things that I think will be slightly triggering, but I also think it’s very important. And I found it interesting that I naturally changed it just enough so that way it didn’t mirror mine. And I think you do that for sort of self-protection. But if you forget to do that and you start to feel triggered, I think that’s… that’s a really good tip.

And I know the next question I have—I know we kind of talked about it with perfectionism, I know we talked a little bit about it with burnout—and it's the whole reason why I ended up changing to September 13 ^th is, I personally think as writers, especially those that are choosing to self-publish, we need to recognize that most of the time that our deadlines that stress us out are often very self-imposed. And I think we need to recognize that mental health is far more important than meeting any self-imposed deadline. Giving ourselves breaks and stepping back can actually improve our writing. And so, we need to find that balance between setting deadlines and knowing when to loosen them.

So, have you felt like stepping back was beneficial for yourself, or what markers that it might be needed could listeners watch for in their own processes?

Rebecca: Absolutely. It has been relevant in my life. I suspect that there are very few people—or writers—out there who thrive on either constant tight deadlines or no deadlines at all. But finding your own personal happy middle ground, ideally with plenty of flexibility, is a great idea.

Stepping back has been the right choice for me at different points, which I feel like I've already touched on a little bit in this episode. But at the moment, I’m currently stepping back. When I finished the fourth book in my series, a lot of other life things and world things came up for me, so I have stepped back from that until I feel like I have the capacity to return to that series, which I hope to be this year. But stepping back was 100% the right choice for me right now in my writing life.

As for what markers to watch for that might indicate it’s needed, I don’t think I have any revelatory genius on this, but here are a few common-sense markers in case hearing them is helpful:

First of all is just a noticeable decline in mental health that is impacting the rest of your life, and which is directly caused by your writing or your writing deadlines, your publishing deadlines, or anything related to that, that has become stressors to you.

Number two might be when you're doing editing passes on your manuscript and you realize that on any given pass, you're not making any meaningful changes, but you aren’t ready or willing to let go of it to the next step, which is usually outside feedback. That can be an opportunity to take a step back, go through that mindset about, “Alright, can I let go of this? Is it good enough for this stage? I need to move forward, and forward is not doing another editing pass.”

Another spot to watch for maybe needing to take a little bit of a break is if you're feeling angry, depressed, or deeply resistant to working on your book for days in a row. And this, I feel, is probably the most intuitive for most authors. If you want to do literally anything in your life more than work on your book, take a week off. Because you will not be writing a good story. You will not be improving your story if you're coming at it with so much resentment that it overshadows why you wanted to write the story in the first place.

The last marker I can think of right now is: having something come up in your life that overshadows your writing—rightly so—as you’ve experienced, and I’ve experienced in the past, and like a lot of people are currently experiencing as we try to keep our country from tipping over. That is more important. It is. It is always going to be more important. And unless your writing is your escape and the way that you are surviving the external things, then it is entirely okay. And I'm going to personally encourage you to take a step back until you feel like you can engage with your writing in a way that helps you and maybe helps your world. But prioritize. And do so smartly.

Basically, and I know I probably shouldn’t be saying this as a writer, and an author, and an editor, but you really need to prioritize yourself and your wider life over your writing. And while it is important to come back to it when you can and when you have that space for it, if your writing goals require you to finish writing or finish editing or anything like that, in general, that scale between real-world, real life, and writing and creativity has a lower balance point than you might think. It doesn’t take a literal catastrophe to be worth stepping back on your writing to prioritize other things. When in doubt, I suggest talking over your pros and cons list with someone that you trust and let them help you sort of brainstorm whether or not taking that step back is the right choice.

And very importantly, if you decide that taking a break is the right choice for you at that time, commit fully to it. Dialing back to only working on your book 10% or 20% of however much you want to be, isn’t a break. It might be what you need. Dialing back might be the right answer for you. But if you need a break break from your writing, then 0%. You have to work on the plotting and the writing and the editing or whatever. 0%. You will recharge and start truly wanting to go back to your stories, craving that creativity, so much faster and deeper that way.

Agnes: Now, after my grandson's father died, I've been doing 0%. There was no room for writing. And in fact, I couldn't pick up my own book. I ended up starting to write something else that was more mental health related. That's an adult book that I don't know if I'll ever finish or not. But I did it more for myself.

But I wanted to go off of something that you had also said about, you know, sometimes deadlines are helpful. You know, so we don't want to just totally scrap our deadlines. The deadlines are helpful. For instance, when I had to send my book to you, I did not feel like it was ready to send to you because I had this idea that I was going to go through it like three or four times. And I went through it once. And like I, you know, I did one major change, but I only went through my entire document like one time. And then there were things I wanted to change. But you had asked me, “Does it change the overall plot?” And I'm like, “No.” And I'm actually glad that I sent it the way that I did because then the feedback I got kind of confirmed what I already thought. But you gave me more advice, which was on what I was already going to change. So, it actually benefited me. So, I think deadlines are good.

But I wanted to do one more thing about people who are traditional writers. So, I have talked to a lot of authors, and they've been traditional, hybrid, and self-published authors. And the one thing that I have found—because a lot of my talking with authors is actually outside of the interviews, and we often talk about some of their struggles that they didn't necessarily want to share on the interview— but a lot of the traditionally published authors have actually said that they were able to have deadlines changed. And I think that's one thing to think about. If you are doing traditional publishing and you're like, “My mental health is really struggling here, and I have this deadline,” ask for the extension. Just ask for it.

And like—I could have asked Rebecca—I was mentally healthy at that time—but I'm sure I could have been like, “Hey Rebecca, you know what? Can we push it back a month? I'm really struggling here,” and she would have been like, “Yes. 100% yes.” But for me, you know, at the time, my husband was like, “Just send it. It's good enough. She's your editor—she will tell you what to do.”

But that’s just—I wanted to add that about traditional publishing, because I had focused on the self-published. But even if you are working with real deadlines, you can ask for an extension. And I think sometimes we—especially women, I think—feel like we're not supposed to. Because we are taught that we are supposed to follow the rules. And no—you have every permission in the world. They have every permission to say no, but you have every permission to ask.

Anyway. I talked quite a bit, but the last thing I want to mention is community. Like I've said, I have talked to hundreds of authors throughout my podcasting career, both in the fiction and nonfiction world, and I would say, hands down, the number one thing that I think people credit for their success as a writer—actually, I know this is the number one thing that people credit for their success as a writer—is community. And it's not because they are the ones that help them sell the books or even their critique partners are not necessarily… But it's the community itself.

How have you seen community play a role in your own mental health as a writer?

Rebecca: It has been a significant help for me—but not as big a part of things as I know it has been for some of my writer friends, who… it's their whole thing. So, I don’t want to come across as falsely enthusiastic here. I do love my writer friends and groups. Especially the critique group that I’ve been running for a couple of years. But I can also find writing communities very draining sometimes. It’s pure social energy and time. I am actually quite an introvert. But there are also some real idiots out there writing garbage and making posts and asking really dumb questions that make you want to bang your head on a desk in these groups.

So, my community advice is this:

Like with everything else in your life, hopefully find your happy balance. What worked for others is not always going to work for you in the details, despite what they will so enthusiastically tell you. At least, that was my experience.

Number two is: don’t pay a lot of money to have a community. Be that courses, or guilds, or subscription club websites. At least not until you have found three free communities that you really connect with. Because there are sites out there, there are guilds, there are programs that I have lost a lot of money to, that promise you this community that everyone is talking about, that you need to have. And they are scams. So, find some free options. Get a sense for what you really want, what works for you, what you need. And then, if you really, really find something that looks perfect, just be aware that the higher price tag does not necessarily mean that it’s a better option.

Number three would be: if you can’t find the specific community that you’re looking for, create it. That’s what I did when I was trying to find a good critique swap community for my first novel. And I am eternally grateful that I took that leap. I love that group so much more than anything else, because I molded it in my image, and there were, I don’t know, nearly 100 people out there who were looking for the exact same thing. Which is beautiful.

Number four is: you are never in competition with the other writers that you are networking with. Seriously. As Joanna Penn—who runs a great blog and podcast and stuff—says, every writer is going to buy tons of books to read for fun, to stay updated in their genre, to check out their peers' work, and so on. To quote her more or less directly (but possibly misquote): “If you want there to be more readers in the world, encourage more people to write.” That, and, it’s the encouraging and kind and connecting people, without a shred of jealousy or gatekeeping or competition, who really make friends and thrive in these writing communities. And you want to be one of those people. You do not want to be the bitter, you know, the bitter guy sitting there in the corner going, “But my work is better,” and “You did this wrong.” You want to be the person who is going on and going, “I loved that. If you wanted to tweak one thing, here’s the thing—since you were asking for feedback. But I liked this aspect and this aspect. And did you hear about this group? You could probably ask in there and they'd give you lots of help.” You want to be that person.

Number five, and lastly on this little list here: you can define community for yourself. Maybe your writing community is two other people who you do writing sprints with in a local café once a month. Maybe for you, community is 20, 30, 40-ish people that you swap writing samples with every five to six weeks like what I created, what I found. Maybe it’s 30,000 people in a super active online forum. It’s totally up to you. And finding the right fit for you, that accommodates whatever mental health stuff you’re dealing with, that accommodates your personality and your energy and all that kind of stuff, is vital in getting what you’re “supposed to” out of community.

Agnes: As a writer, I think for me the community that I have developed that I really appreciate is just a few people. And like—bigger community because I have the podcast and… but I kind of take like building my community the same way I build my friends is: I think about “how do they make me feel?” And like, I have my people who will insult my writing and who will like critique it and who will be honest. But like, I also need that community that will make me feel good. Like, that will encourage me. And that doesn’t mean that they’re going to lie to me about my book or anything like that. And you can find a lot of people who will tell you—who will be brutally honest with you. You don’t need those in your community necessarily. But I’m talking about like the people that will tell you “It’s okay to take a break,” or who will say “No, you got this, girl,” and that sort of stuff. I think those, for me, that’s the community I want. And it’s only a handful of people I have. And I’ve met some through the podcast. I’ve met some in real life. And that’s—to me—that’s what I want, and that’s what has really helped me with my own mental health.

But anyway, Rebecca, thank you so much for your insight. It has helped me so much. I really do appreciate it. Thank you for this topic as well.

Rebecca: Yes! Thank you for being willing to go off the rails a little bit on this one, and I really do hope that it was helpful to the listeners. I know it was helpful to me.

So next week on the podcast, we will return to good old solid story craft and go over the importance of checking your plot twists in self-editing your novel.

For now, I would really like to thank everyone for following along with this series. We’d really appreciate it if you could help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Author’s Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers—and maybe find some to connect with—beyond this joint series.

And yeah—thank you. Thank you so much. I’m so happy to have you back on the show, and I look forward to finishing out this series this year.

Agnes: And I can’t wait to chat with you again next week.

And I just want to plug this real quick: if you go to authorsalcove.org , we are having a Heart of Flame—do you have your book behind you somewhere?

Rebecca: I do. It’s buried out down here.

Agnes: We have—I would normally have it like right here—A Heart of Flame is being put on there, and you guys can try to win it. So that should be—by the time this one comes out—it should already be on there.

Thank you so much, Rebecca.

Rebecca: Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great, so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more or visit my website—linked in the description—to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Word Count: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 21

Tue, 27 May 2025 19:59:10 GMT

Here is the handout I mentioned that can help with slimming:

You can simply click on the image above, or download it here through Book Funnel!

I also want to give a huge shout-out to my guest host on this episode, Jena Doyle! You can find her poly fantasy romance series Midsummer, her motorcycle romance series Steel Roses, and her contrebutions to the Royal Bastards universe on her website: jenadoyle.com I had the honor of developmentally Editing Blood and Whisky in the Royal Bastards word, and you can find the video testimonial about Jena's experience with that in that tab above.

You can also find and follow her @thejenadoyle on all social media platforms!

Episode 21 Overview:

Word Count Self Editing

"Is my word count in the Goldilocks zone for my genre? If not, do I need to add content or slim down? What is the easiest & fastest way to do so that doesn’t compromise my core love of this story?"

In this week’s Story Savvy Series , we discuss how to edit your book yourself , focusing on using word count effectively and slimming or expanding those numbers as needed. In this episode, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell teams up with guest host and author Jena Doyle [ jenadoyle.com ], who is filling in for Agnes Wolfe [ authorsalcove.com ]. Together, they explore practical self-editing strategies focused on word count. Whether your manuscript is bloated, barely hitting the minimum, or you aren’t quite sure what the word count should be in the first place, this episode will help you make every word count—literally.

Episode 21 of the 52-Week Story Savvy series explores how to meet genre’s length expectations and refine your novel at the chapter, scene, and sentence level. Together, Rebecca and Jena provide actionable techniques to optimize pacing, balance chapter lengths, and trim or expand your story without losing its heart.

They also discuss:

How to identify your ideal word count based on bestselling books
Strategies to tighten bloated manuscripts and cut unnecessary scenes
Smart ways to increase word count without adding fluff
Tips for managing chapter structure and reader flow
Tools like tally counters and search-and-replace to fine-tune your writing

Whether you’re aiming to traditionally publish or self-publish, this episode offers essential insights for polishing your manuscript and aligning it with professional standards.

Recommended Resources:
Jena Doyle – https://jenadoyle.com
Authors’ Alcove Membership Community – http://authorsalcove.com
Jena Doyle on all social media platforms at TheJenaDoyle
Book Giveaway – http://authorsalcove.org
Find & Replace Self-Editing Handout – https://dl.bookfunnel.com/o3exny3f5m

See you next week for episode 22: Mental Health & Self Care

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 21 Transcript:

Self-Editing for Word Count

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast! This is episode 21 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as a published author asks me—a developmental editor—all of the questions that you have wanted to. My usual co-host and a delightful string of guest hosts have covered a bunch in this series so far, and last week, that guest host, Sylvia, and I went over the ins and outs of Deus ex Machina. Today, my temporary new co-host, Jena, and I, are going to take a look at self-editing for word count at each layer of a story, which I expect to be a very hands-on part of self-editing for many of our listeners. By the end of this episode, you'll all hopefully feel confident identifying the magic word count numbers for you and your specific book, and have some really solid tools in hand to make any adjustments that are needed—up or down.

Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and former client, Jena Doyle, the author of Midsummer, Crimson Chaos, and Blood and Whiskey, just to name a few, which I had the honor of developmentally editing—Blood and Whiskey—which was a delight. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about you and your writing before we dive in with our first question?

Jena Doyle: Sure, thank you. So, I'm Jena Doyle, and I started writing—gosh—when I was a little kid, but I started publishing in 2023. Crimson Chaos was my first book that I self-published. I have been writing a queer poly adaptation of Midsummer Night's Dream, which was four books and took me four years to write. I just finished publishing that one this year, which I was very excited about. And then I have a shifter paranormal romance—that's my Blood and Whiskey in the Royal Bastards shared world and universe—and I've got a couple more coming out this year, so very excited to get those done.

Rebecca: Excellent. And I'm excited to read them. Why don't we jump in with our first word count topic for today?

Jena: Sure. Okay, so the first question I have for you is: what are your personal thoughts on word count for the whole book? For instance, I know if you go traditional, there are often requirements you must meet in order to have your book even looked at. But if you're self-publishing, you can always argue that anything goes. And what is your position on that line of thinking?

Rebecca: First of all, I don't have any real arguments with that. One of the easiest ways to never get your book even looked at by an agent or publisher is to not meet their word count requirements. And technically, you can self-publish anything. But there are always going to be guidelines if you're looking for success, because each genre of readers have their expectations.

So, I suggest, when you're looking at this aspect of freedom, that you don't assume that you can be the exception to the rule until you've sold a million copies—until you've proven that you can do—sorry—until you've proven that you can follow the rules before you break them, kind of thing.

But pretty much any genre, or even agent requirements, it's not going to be: you have to write precisely this number. There's almost always a Goldilocks zone. So, you have a minimum number and a maximum number, and there should always be wiggle room in there.

So, bear that in mind. And it's okay if you fall on the lower end of that spectrum or the upper end of that spectrum, but always aim for that Goldilocks zone.

And if this topic is stressing you out—you being any of our listeners—then I highly encourage folks to look at restrictions as inspiration. Because if you ended up writing a fantasy that is twice as long as any agent will look at, then use that as inspiration to maybe go back and rework the story so that it's two books. Or, if you wrote 40,000 words and you want to submit to a romance publisher who only accepts at least, you know, 60,000 words—maybe 80,000 words—use that as inspiration to come up with more ways that things can go wrong, or ways to complicate the plot, or ways to bring in and explore new interesting aspects to the story.

So, restrictions are only bad if you see them that way. They can also be very helpful and Jena: Yeah, yeah, that's great advice. What about other layers of the story? Are there any other parts of the book where you think that word count would matter or make a difference?

Rebecca: Yes, very much for chapters and scenes. The difference between those two categories—and they can be used interchangeably, I try not to—a scene is any set of events that happen between a jump in time, place, or perspective, while a chapter is wherever the author decided to arbitrarily cut things.

So, scenes are defined by the story being told, and the author is the one who defines what the chapters are. But both of them should be, potato chip length, is the best description that I've heard. You don't want to sit down and just eat big chunks of potato. You want nice little bite-sized pieces that are really easy to consume. One after the next, after the next, after the next.

And the length of the chapter has a lot to do with that. If it's too long, it's going to feel like things are starting to drag—like the reader isn't getting to take a breath. It can really slow down your pacing because you aren't staying succinct. You aren't getting something done and then moving on to the next thing that needs to be done.

On the other side of that, too-short chapters can feel messy, they can feel chaotic, and it can feel like nothing is really getting done because not enough time and space is being spent on each thing that happens. It can feel very rushed and perhaps like the story hasn't finished being fleshed out.

So, yeah, scenes and chapters are the other place where word count really, really matters.

Jena: Yeah, I would agree with that. I once listened to a workshop with Nikki Sloan who talked about cutting your chapters in the middle of a scene—where it would be almost like a cliffhanger, it would make the reader want to read the next chapter just because, like, "Oh gosh, what happens?" Right? Along the same lines, is there a source that you would recommend to help people know what the total word count is or where the ballpark would be for their genre?

Rebecca: Yeah, I mean, you can—you can look this up online and see what people are saying. And I recommend that you get a couple of different opinions and find a consensus, rather than assuming that whatever answer you find isn't from someone totally off base.

But I recommend doing the math yourself. I recommend just checking the Amazon bestseller page or any bestseller list for your genre—ideally your sub-sub-subgenre, if you know what that is. And you don't have to buy the book. You can just look at the sales page, and look for the page count that will be listed with the book.

Multiply that by about 300. You can find other numbers for how many words per page, but 300 is middle ground. And then that's going to give you your general word count. That's going to tell you roughly how long all of these different books are.

And if you do a list of 10 or more—ideally—I suggest that you scrap the highest and you scrap the lowest as the outliers, and then use an average from the numbers that you have left for how long books in that genre are expected to be, what your competitors are writing, what the audience is expecting, and what's thriving in those genres as far as how long the total word count is.

Jena: Yeah, that's great advice. I'd never thought to do that. That's wonderful. What about specific chapters? How can we check to make sure that we have the right word count on a chapter-by-chapter basis?

Rebecca: Totally. So, if you don't want to do a bunch of work, I almost universally recommend 1,500 words to 2,500 words per chapter—or 1.5k to 2.5k.

And related to that, for scenes specifically, I recommend that they not be shorter than a thousand words, even if you have multiple scenes in one chapter.

Now, if you don't want to trust me on that—if you don't want to take my word for it—or if you want to check and see if your genre is an outlier to that, then you can go through that same sort of math process to find you and your book’s specific chapter length numbers.

So, take those same 10 bestselling books with the numbers that you have for number of pages and total length, and check in the table of contents—which you should be able to see, again, without buying the book—to see how many chapters there are. Write down the number of chapters, and do not include the foreword, the "About the Author," and the "Also By"—only count the actual chapters, and epilogues or prologues if they've got those.

So, then you want to take your estimated total word count and divide it by the number of chapters, and that's going to give you a rough estimate for how many, on average, words are in each of those chapters.

And again, once you've done that math with those 10 books, I suggest that you scrap the highest and you scrap the lowest, and you use the rest as an idea for what's acceptable and what's expected for chapter length.

Jena: Yeah, yeah. As a published author, I know that editing is one of the things that can rack up expenses quite quickly—especially because I know editors often charge for words—by word count. So, making sure that your chapters and your total book is as tight as it can be is very important.

What if you are trying to get your book down to a tighter length before getting feedback? What are some things that we can look at to see if we have unnecessary elements? Or what are some, you know, easy ideas just to slim it down before we send it out to a developmental editor—like how you helped me—or line editing, so on and so forth?

Rebecca: Yeah, first of all, as an editor, I highly encourage everyone to slim their books down before they send it to me. I often get to be much more helpful on manuscripts that have been distilled down versus those that I'm trying to sort through a lot of fluff to get to those story elements that I can really, really help with—so, highly encourage that.

It's frankly a big part of why I'm doing this whole self-editing series. Because the better shape an author can get their own book in before they send it to me, exponentially, the more help that I can provide them.

So how I suggest approaching this specific topic—like with everything else—I suggest approaching it from the biggest elements to the smallest. And I suggest working out your ideas and your brainstorming and all of that kind of stuff in notes separate from the manuscript, until you're certain how you want to proceed, and you have that all planned out.

So—could you start the story later? So, closer to where things really get interesting and big or extreme or kick things off in a very noticeable way? Just answering that question might cut off several chapters from the beginning, while only adding a couple of paragraphs sprinkled in here and there to cover whatever vital details were in those early chapters that you really can't afford to lose entirely.

Same idea at the other end of the manuscript. How much sooner after the climax could you satisfyingly end the story while still maintaining whatever balance of catharsis and cliffhanger you were going for?

Next, for trying to slim down on your own—are there any scenes or chapters in the middle, spread out through any part of the story, that you could scrap entirely, replacing whatever you wanted to happen there with one paragraph or two here or there?

This is one of those spots where that expression of ‘show, don't tell’ needs to get set aside, because now and then, it is better to tell than show. If you're spending a chapter showing something that doesn't really need to be shown and could be skipped over with one paragraph of telling to see, spare your reader all of that fluff. It's basically a matter of deciding if the showing is worth the payoff that the reader is going to get out of it.

Next on our little checklist here would be: are there any plot threads or secondary character arcs through the whole thing that, if you scrapped them, might strengthen the overall story? Because the amount of words that you are spending on establishing it or building it or delivering it aren't really worth the payoff in the end?

So, having gone over those, I'm going to lump these suggestions all together. Are there any, you know, two scenes that could be slimmed down into one of a comparable length? Or two chapters that could be slimmed down to be one chapter length?

Are there any characters that you could combine down into one character or a fewer number of characters to reduce the amount of backstory that you are doing with all of these characters? Are there plot threads or the like that could become multi-purpose—again, reducing how much you need to establish multiple threads if you can make them all come down into one?

So, all of these suggestions that I've covered so far are for scrapping whole sequences—so sets of scenes—or entire chapters or scenes or pages or at least paragraphs. But once you've exhausted those options—and I suggest exhausting them before you get down to one word at a time—I do have a couple of suggestions beyond that for slimming the manuscript at the much, much finer level of attention.

First, it was a game changer for me when I downloaded a little, like, tally counter—click counter app, and, I mean, a physical one would work too—but I went through my manuscript, and I told myself that I had to reduce every single page by ten words at least. And every time I deleted a word or reworked a sentence to make it three words shorter, I would just—just click my click three little buttons. And it made me so happy, and I got that little dopamine rush every time, and it was amazing. Just the mindset shift it gave me—I was suddenly seeing ways to rephrase things that I would never have thought of otherwise. And I was suddenly noticing all of the filler words that I'm usually completely blind to. So, that’s my number one recommendation: get some sort of, like, tally counter. You could do, like, you know, cross-hatch counting—whatever you want to do. But tracking that and doing, like, 10 words a page was huge for me.

And then my second recommendation for slimming one word at a time is: I have a search and replace handout that I will link in the episode transcript for this on my website. And it's basically a little checklist for things that you can do to polish your self-editing at the very, like, copy editing level—only using the search and replace function.

You don't have to read through. Your brain doesn't have to catch anything. You search for it, you check it, you move on. And the first section of that is specifically for slimming. So, it has lists of common filler words to try to delete. It has common contraction opportunities—so turning will not into won’t, stuff like that—and other ideas for reducing your word count overall.

That's—that's all of the tools that I've got for slimming down before your editors.

Jena: It is amazing that, you know, how much—once you are aware of how many filler words you actually use—how that will change the way that you write. For me, I use the word ‘sure’ at the beginning of a sentence a lot. Like, “Sure, I did blah blah blah,” right? And then, you know, I had a beta reader point out to me, "You use the word sure a lot. It’s in here, you know, 46 times." And I was like, "Oh my goodness, I didn’t realize I ever did that." And so now, like, it changed the way I write.

What about the opposite? What if we are—we don’t have enough words for our genre? Maybe we feel that way before we get feedback or, you know, while we are in the process of editing, or even if an editor has suggested to us, "You know, your word count is a little low." What are some tips and tricks that we can use to bring that word count up to genre standard?

Rebecca: Sure. So, first of all, I would recommend going back to episode 6 in this series, which was all about looking at splitting or combining story ideas, how to assess that, and how to best approach it.

You can also consider picking a different book type or book label. So, that could be a short story or a novella. If you thought you were writing a full-length novel and you actually have a novella-length story, then it makes more sense to change the label than it does to try to double the length of the book.

And this might sound silly to some of our readers, but I have had clients who had 20,000 words or so thinking that they could, you know, expand that up to be a full-length novel—so 80,000 words—and after talking them through it, pivoting so that that story could be a lead magnet novella or something like that was much, much more doable and kept the integrity of the story that they wanted to tell.

Lastly, for expanding up the word count for an overall book is something that I definitely went into a lot more detail on in episode six, but it's essentially: make things harder for the protagonist and make more things go wrong. Those approaches to adding length are the least likely to end up feeling like fluff or shoe leather or unnecessary.

Jena: Yeah, yeah, that’s such great advice. I think it was George R.R. Martin who said, you know, "Find the thing that your protagonist loves and then take it away from them." And there’s always a way that you can make things so much harder for your protagonist and add conflict at the same time.

What about chapter word count specifically? What are some best practices for shortening a chapter that has gone on way too long? Or how can we go about effectively splitting chapters so that it’s, you know, continues the plot but also makes sense for the book in whole?

Rebecca: Sure. So, you touched on earlier that idea of splitting chapters at the cliffhanger. And I think that that can be done, and it can be done very well and effectively. But I don't encourage it for newer authors because I think it’s a lot harder to get those placed right than it is to do it the traditional way.

In fact, there's one author that I've edited that did that cliffhanger chapter ending every single time and nailed it. And everyone else—it’s been a struggle. This was actually something that came up on my last edit, so it's definitely top of my mind.

Typically, you want to split your chapters where there is a jump in time, space/location, or in the POV. So, let’s say you have a 4,000-word chapter that you want to split down into two 2,000-word chapters. You can just arbitrarily pick a spot, but that’s not the most professional way to approach it. That’s going to feel like a little bit of a glitch in the story.

What you can do instead is find a spot within the chapter where there is a jump in time—so, maybe you have a sentence like, And then they drove to the restaurant and got seated. That’s a jump in time because you're no longer describing, "Well, they got the car keys and they got in the car and they turned left at the light." Or it could be a jump in location, which that same sentence is an example of that, but it doesn't have to be like that. Or where you have a scene break splitting the POV. Any of those situations are great places to stick in a new chapter break.

However, if you don't have one of those spots, you can shift things around to create it. If you are struggling to split a large chapter down into smaller ones, I suggest looking at how you can shift things around to artificially add in a jump in time, space, or POV. Because that is where a chapter break is going to feel natural and expected and serve its job and feel professional.

So, as for slimming pre-existing chapters without splitting them, it’s pretty much the same approach as with slimming the whole book—but on a different scale. So, on the chapter/scene level scale: can you start later or end sooner to trim things off either end?

Are there events or conversations within the chapter that you could scrap? Could you combine any of the characters or conversations to distill things down?

And obviously, that 10 words per page or the find and replace filler words are going to work at the chapter level as well.

Jena: What if there is a chapter that is too short, and we don't want to just add fluff just to add word count, but we know that what happens in that chapter is too vital and we can't just scrap it? What do we do then?

Rebecca: Well, like I recommended—I think that about 1,000 words is the minimum for a scene to feel like it does something. So, my top recommendation for building things up, if you need to, is actually to slim it down further and incorporate it into either the chapter before or the chapter after, just using a scene break.

So, if you have a 2,000-word chapter and then you have a chapter that’s 800 words, my suggestion is that you slim it down enough that those two can go together into one chapter—but as two separate scenes within that.

Option two might be to take content away from a chapter that’s too long, or at least on the longer side in your Goldilocks zone, and add that content to the one that’s too short. That might mean moving a certain conversation that happens between two characters, or moving a traveling process or a learning and training process—anything like that, where it's valuable content that adds to the story and needs to be there, but has some flexibility around exactly how, when, and where it comes up.

This is the tool that I personally use the most when I am self-editing. One of the early steps that I will do is I will go through, and I will look at my bloated chapters and see what I could move to some of my overly skinny ones.

Lastly—and like with lengthening the whole book—make more things go wrong and make the protagonist process and respond to and then eventually move forward from that. So, like you were just saying: take what they love—or, find what they love, take it away. Add more complications to the story to—to be—beef things up.

Jena: Yeah. I had a writing professor tell me once, “if you get stuck or you're feeling like things just aren't moving forward,” right? To “have somebody show up with a gun.” And that could be, like, a metaphorical gun—it doesn't have to actually be a gun.

Rebecca: Right.

Jena: But something explosive or something, you know, wild happens. And that can help to either add—add words if you need to, or move the process forward, or have the protagonist, you know, have to have something to respond to.

Rebecca: Anything to throw them off balance and make them have to respond to something because there’s no other choice. Absolutely.

Jena: So, I just have one last question for you. We're running up on time here. What are the tangible benefits of hitting these Goldilocks zones, and what other topics in this series do word counts most have the biggest impact on?

Rebecca: Sure. So, for the full book word count—looking at that—it really, really impacts your trad success likelihood. Again, if you are five words out of whatever Goldilocks zone an agent or a publisher has given you, that's a problem. You need to go in and you need to fix that.

It also really, really affects your likelihood of fitting into your genre. Whether you’re Trad or Indie, you have to satisfy your genre readers, and that is huge. And being a longer book in fantasy or being really, really, really tight in thriller is very, very important.

Lastly, on this sort of global word count topic, you need to deliver the promise that you're giving your readers with your genre choices and your labels. If you are labeling something as a full-length novel, there's a certain expectation that you are going to go deep, and you are going to really develop your characters and your plot and your world-building. And if you then show up with 30,000 words, you just don’t have the space, and you are clearly not going to be able to go as deep and developed as you are promising in your book length and genre promise labels.

So, as far as nailing the Goldilocks zone for the chapter or scene word count, a big part here is pacing—like we talked about right back at the beginning. That really, really does make a difference. It’s often a case—like I said at the beginning—where the longer chapters feel slower, and the shorter chapters feel faster. But this can be an exception in the climaxes, so just keep an eye on that. It’s more acceptable to have fast-paced, longer chapters in the climax of an action story or whatever you’re doing.

It can also really, really impact your interest and investment from your readers. So, if you have really inconsistent chapter lengths, or chapter lengths that are way shorter or way longer than is expected, the *reader is going to start losing trust in you as a writer to some extent. And you don’t want that to happen. You want to keep them very much invested. And nailing that Goldilocks zone for your chapter lengths is part of that.

Lastly for this—it’s professionalism more than you might expect. And this ties into that author trust thing. When I read traditionally published or indie published books with really odd length on their chapters, it always makes the writers seem amateur to me.

And I’m sure that there are some best-selling, expert writers who’ve been writing for a decade and figured out how to make weird chapter lengths work, but again, 90% of the time, hitting these professional requirements that make you seem like you really know what you’re doing are only going to help the impression that your book leaves with your readers.

Jena: I agree. It shows that you've studied your craft and that you are, you know, doing your best effort to perform and, like you said, deliver on the promise that you have given to the reader when they picked up the book. So yeah, you know what? Thank you so much for having me on as your guest host. This has been such a blast, and I always love talking to you—especially about craft or books or anything publishing-related.

Rebecca: Excellent. I've also had a great time, and I love talking to you, and I so look forward to reading the book that you're working on right now. We were talking about that a little bit before the show.

Next week, my usual co-host, Agnes Wolfe, will be back with me, which is very exciting, and we will be discussing mental health and self-care during the self-editing process. So, I hope everyone will tune in to that.

For right now, I would really like to thank everyone following along with this series. We would very much appreciate it if you'd help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Author's Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers.

Beyond this joint series, I also highly encourage you all to check out Jena's awesome biker and fantasy romance books at jenadoyle.com, and to follow them on social media under theJenaDoyle on all platforms. I will be sure to leave all of those links in the episode description.

Jena: Thank you so much. Looking forward to it.

Rebecca: Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great—so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more or visit my website, linked in the description, to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Deus Ex Machina: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 20

Tue, 20 May 2025 23:23:24 GMT

My sincere thanks to Silvie Pawn for guest-hosting!

Additional thoughts:

When I use an example of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone climax, talking about keeping the Chosen One trope out of the protagonist's mindset, I got a little off track. What I'd meant to get at is that Harry had no thoughts of being a Chosen One, or having any abilities beyond what he knew himself to have, when he chose to enter the climax gauntlet, knowing who/what he'd face. The fact that he did have a Chosen One trope waiting for him in his touch being an unexpected asset played no part at all in him choosing to go face the climax action, and because he deals with Fluffy, and the flying keys, potions, and chess without any special Chosen One powers, the reader doesn't get too much of a sense of Deus ex Machina from the small last portion of the climax that has that unexpected overpower.

I also want to clarify that twist reveals about shapeshifter characters can be Deus ex Machina, but aren't automatically that. Check out episode 23, which is all about plot twists and covers this in more depth!

You can find the links to Christy's books in the show notes below! I really appreciate her stepping in on short notice to cover for my usual co-host, Agnes Wolfe.

Episode 20 Overview:

Deus Ex Machina

"Do I have any Deus Ex Machina that I need to fix?

Put another way, are all of the elements of the climax subtly seeded through the story leading up to it as possibilities?"

In this week’s Story Savvy episode , developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell explores a common writing mistake, Deus ex Machina, and how to improve your writing skills in this writing podcast for authors . Deus ex Machina is when there is a sudden, overpowered solution to the global story problems that steals a protagonist’s agency and risks breaking the story’s logic, world building, or payoff. Episode 20 of the 52-Week Story Savvy series is a deep-dive into how to write climaxes that feel earned, not convenient, and how to avoid one of the most book-ruining mistakes in modern fiction writing.

Joining Rebecca is guest host Silvie Pawn, author of the Godsend series [ https://www.facebook.com/GodsendSaga ]. She is filling in for host of Authors’ Alcove Agnes Wolfe [authorsalcove.com]. Together, they unpack what qualifies as Deus ex Machina, how the Chosen One trope can slip into it, and how to revise your story so that big moments have proper weight and foreshadowing.

They also discuss:

Spotting and preventing Deus ex Machina moments
Strengthening your protagonist’s agency in climactic scenes
Using foreshadowing to set up powerful payoffs
Managing twist reveals vs. reader betrayal
Revising Chosen One arcs with clarity and intention
Identifying plot problems during the editing phase

Whether you're dealing with overpowered characters, late-stage twists, or poor beta feedback, this episode offers concrete tools to help you craft a stronger, more satisfying ending.

In This Episode:

Defining Deus ex Machina and why it breaks narrative trust
How to use foreshadowing to avoid forced plot resolutions
Tools to reinforce character agency and avoid abrupt power-ups
Making Chosen One stories work without cliché
Real-world editing examples of what to avoid
When certain genres allow for rule-breaking (and how to do it right)

Recommended Resources:
S ilvie Pawn’s Godsend Saga Series – https://www.facebook.com/GodsendSaga
Authors’ Alcove Membership Community – http://authorsalcove.com
Book Giveaway – http://authorsalcove.org

See you next week for episode 21: Word Count Self-Editing

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 20 Transcript:

Deus Ex Machina

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast.

This is episode 20 of the weekly Story Savvy series where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as a published (and soon to be published) author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to.

My usual co-host Agnes and I have covered a bunch in this series so far and last week my last guest host Sue and I went over catching and addressing plot holes and character inconsistencies. Today my temporary new co-host Sylvia and I are going to take a look at Deus ex Machina. By the end of this episode, you'll hopefully feel confident defining and identifying what Deus ex Machina is and have a solid grasp on how to fix it, and when to do so, in your own work.

Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend Sylvia Pawn, author of Godsend.

Hello.

Sylvia Pawn: Hi. I'm excited to tackle this topic with you as it is by far one of the most story-breaking issues you can have in a book.

Rebecca: Why don't you tell us a little bit more about you and your writing before we dive in with our first question?

Sylvia: So, a little about me. I am a self-published author. I've currently got a pre editing version of the first book of the Godsend series out on Amazon. I am kind of a little funny with the way I like to write. I decided at 14 to write the Godsend series and decided to commit to a seven-book series where each of the book names corresponds with a letter in the series because one series I saw as a kid did that and I was like I like, “I like that.”

Rebecca: Nice.

Sylvia: So, the first book is Grace, and the series follows a group of teenage superhumans who discover that they got their superpowers from a super soldier experiment that technically went wrong but also went right.

Rebecca: Fun!

Sylvia: And so, it follows them becoming these—the stereotypical supervillains to the media and the government and to the rest of the world. Whereas they're actually the superheroes because they are battling against the government, who is kind of turning the teenage superheroes into super soldiers as young as 12 and 13 years old.

So, I know you have mentioned Deus ex Machina in previous episodes of the show, but what exactly does that mean? Because I'm sure I'm not the only one who needed to Google this.

Rebecca: Right. It's Latin. I can't really blame anyone. So, Deus ex Machina literally translates to “the God in the machine,” and the term comes from ancient Greek plays where that was an expected aspect of that storytelling. You would have these human characters getting themselves into all kinds of trouble, trouble and building up these big issues. And then, you know, Apollo would come down from Olympus and snap his fingers and everything would be fixed. And that was not only an accepted, but an expected, part of that storytelling—was that there were gods and they would come down and they would intervene. They would magically fix everything.

However, in modern storytelling, that is far less acceptable. It's much more expected nowadays—and by nowadays, I mean in the last, let's say, four centuries—that your protagonists, whoever they are, fix the climax themselves. So having a God, or to expand that, any overpowered entity that has not previously had any role in the story, show up in the climax and fix everything is going to annoy your readers, because they are invested in seeing how the characters that they have become invested in are going to figure stuff out and how they are going to triumph. And when you undercut that, and, instead of making your protagonist fix the issue, you have this random, overpowered character or creature or ability out of nowhere fix it, there's no payoff for them. There's no catharsis.

Another big part of this that I just want to mention here is that one of the ways to look at the issue of Deus ex Machina is that it takes agency away from your protagonist. And I've definitely talked about this in other episodes, particularly around our character arcs.
But when you have this God, or power, or whatever entity, come down, fix it, it takes all of the agency away from your protagonist in the moment where you want them to have the most, being the climax. So that hopefully explains what it is and where it comes from and how it can be interpreted in modern fiction, and why it should be avoided at just a baseline.

Sylvia: Is this always a problem? Or is it okay to have some elements of Deus ex machina, like if, you know, you're partway through the series and it's meant to be a plot device used later on, but it's not immediately explained?

Rebecca: Yeah. So, I'd say that in modern fiction, which is what I write, what I edit, what I talk about, it is always a problem that should be fixed. Like, pure Deus ex machina. If it's just a twist reveal, that's different. And I think we'll get into that a little bit more later in this series. But if it is true Deus ex machina, then modern genre readers just aren't open to it. So, if you're wanting to set things up for later in the series, then you need to set it up. You need to do foreshadowing, and seeding, and make sure that it has a build and payoff, rather than dropping out of nowhere at the highest adrenaline point of the book.

Sylvia: So, I've heard a lot of examples of it, and one thing that I know it happens a lot in is D&D. Usually it's because players just sidestep or speed run things, and so the DM has to kind of go in and go, "Okay, okay, here's some help." And there are a lot of movie, TV adaptations, books—like the Drizzit series—where campaigns and stories are turned into books and other media.

If you are trying to make an adaptation of a D&D campaign where you had to do Deus ex machina in the campaign itself, do you find a way to add in things that, like, the campaign didn't have? Do you think it would be acceptable if you put in the preface, "This is word for word, or based on, a D&D campaign I ran once upon a time?” Do you think it'd be more accepted? Do you think there would still be arguments or fighting on having to make that decision as a DM and then putting that into the book because you love your players and you don't want them to lose their characters, right?

Rebecca: So, that's a great example of how different medias have different expectations. So, in role playing games, you have to do stuff like that. You have to be able to pivot on a dime and introduce things out of nowhere and use that sort of on-the-spot storytelling. And that is totally valid for that format.

However, in written genre fiction, that's a different media with different expectations. So, if you want to take a D&D campaign and turn it into a novel, you are going to have to change some aspects. It's not going to transfer over one-to-one. Smoothly, at least.

So, what I recommend is that you either just take your favorite moments from that D&D campaign, or maybe your favorite characters and use them in a novel format. Or you try to just take the elements that you think are going to be unexpected and seed them a lot more.

As far as sort of trying to get a better grasp on what is and isn’t Deus ex Machina, and looking at some common examples—one of the most common examples that I’ve had pointed out to me of “Well, you can’t call this Deus ex Machina because this was fine”—is the climax of the second Harry Potter book, where the phoenix Fawkes carries in a magical hat that drops a magical sword on Harry’s head. And because of this, and only because of this, he’s able to win in the climax. However, I don’t think that that is Deus ex machina, and I’m going to go over some of my reasoning for that in the hopes that that is helpful. If memory serves, despite it being a decade since I last read that series, it’s not Deus ex machina because Fawkes is mentioned several times in the book leading up to that point. And there are mentions of Gryffindor valuing loyalty, and there is an established connection between Harry and phoenixes because of that feather in his wand—even if it hasn’t been revealed yet that that literally is Fawkes’s feather.

So having all of those aspects set up, when that climax moment happens, that some people can interpret as Deus ex Machina, the reader still has an opportunity to go, “Oh no, I kind of remember that mention, and that mention, and that mention, and that mention,” and it feels more justified that this is happening. And it makes sense because it was established. And even with, you know, the phoenix tears fixing him, there’s enough precedent established long before you get to that point that phoenixes have magical powers beyond their regeneration. And generally, animals—magical animals—in this worldbuilding have special powers. So, I would comfortably say that it’s not Deus ex Machina.

It’s also very much worth mentioning here—and I’m sorry if I’m muddling up my memories between the book and the movie here, again, it’s been a long time—but Fawkes didn’t fix or win the climax instead of making the protagonist figure it out, to do what’s needed and triumph. Instead, this Deus ex Machina element simply provided one finite tool to enable the protagonist to enact their own agency to win in the climax. And only after that grand sacrifice is made, and Harry thinks he’s dying, but he still, you know, saved Ginny or whatever it was, does this second aspect of that Deus ex Machina—where his poisoned wound is healed—does that happen.

And yeah. He’s still prepared to pay the price. It was still him who stabbed the sword through the basilisk and got poisoned because of it. The Deus ex Machina there doesn’t count as such because it didn’t overpower, it didn’t take over, and it didn’t magically fix everything. It simply gave him one tool. So, it was still earned by the protagonist in all of the ways that it was. And some of the aspects were clarified after the fact, which is fine because they were still set up to then later be explained before we got to the climax. I’m hoping that example is helpful.

Sylvia: It is. And I also feel like the best Harry Potter example to use would be the fourth Harry Potter installment, at the end, when Harry's got the wand connection, when all of the spirits suddenly show up. It gets explained after the fact, but they're suddenly there, and his parents are like, "Oh, we'll take care of this while you run." That's a better example of this could have been Deus ex Machina if it hadn't been explained that this is common—if someone has taken the lives of other people, that that leaves an imprint of memory.

Rebecca: Right.

Sylvia: But if that hadn't been explained after the fact, that would have been an example of Deus ex Machina.

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah. And… But even there, there was seeding, there was foreshadowing of, "Oh, Voldemort has the same wand core that you do"—that was planted in the first book and got paid off in that fourth climax. And there's also the aspect, again, of: those ghosts couldn't do a whole lot. They didn’t actually do much. They blinded him for whatever, three seconds, and it was still Harry who chose to pick up a wand, summon the cup, and transport himself and the dead guy—whose name I'm blanking on—back to somewhere safe. Right. Like again, it wasn't a matter of, "Oh, the ghosts appear, and they kill Voldemort. There we go.”

Sylvia: With little seedings being so spaced out, I could see that being used more as an example from the series then everything that they fed to people in book two alone, causing book two's ending for books worth. A lot of people are going to forget those little things and that's going to feel like it came out of nowhere.

Rebecca: Totally fair. Yep.

Sylvia: So, my next question is, does genre affect how forgiving readers are of Deus ex Machina? For example, the Fawkes moment in Harry Potter book is often forgiven. Having to do the same thing in D&D and trying to put that into book format.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Sylvia: When researching what it is and looking for examples, most examples are sci-fi or fantasy. Though I myself know of, like, you know, some rom-com things where some random person who's like, "Oh yeah, I'm this person's dad. Here's the resolve." Is it more common in certain genres, or is it just not as noticeable in other genres?

Rebecca: For sure. Fantasy and sci-fi are definitely the biggest culprits, and like you, I can think of some literary fiction even that has some aspects of that, but none that fully cross the line from what I’ve read. So, like with the Fawkes example, I don’t think that anything in the successful genre fiction of the last few centuries is truly, truly Deus ex Machina.

Even in fantasy and sci-fi, which again definitely have the most leeway, it's not generally acceptable, for example, the Fawkes thing to happen, if phoenixes had never been mentioned as part of this worldbuilding, or if the Sorting Hat was only explained to be remotely magical or sentient after the fact and it had just been a normal hat up to that point. Or if the connection between the protagonist’s character build and the previous owner of that sword hadn’t been established at all. Things like that.

There is some wiggle room for how much effort you put into establishing the foreshadowing and the seeding that prevents it from being Deus ex Machina, which can be very closely related to the reality-genre spectrum. So, if you're writing in a genre that has high reality expectations—let's say straight historical fiction—you have to do a lot more work to avoid Deus ex Machina. Whereas in fantasy and sci-fi, which is the far end of that reality spectrum, there’s a lot more wiggle room.

However, I don’t think that there are any genres—with maybe some very minor examples I will mention at the end of this episode—where you can get away with doing none. You have to do some justification in all genres to avoid Deus ex Machina, but the degree to which you have to do so varies.

Sylvia: So, I know that the Chosen One trope is common in fantasy, and I feel like it can make it very easy to fall into having Deus ex Machina in the payoff. Heavily. Heavily. That’s the reason I avoid the Chosen One trope.

Rebecca: But it is common.

Sylvia: What are the common problems around this specifically, and how can authors avoid that issue with this particular trope?

Rebecca: So, common issues, I think, are pretty much what you’ve already touched on. It’s just when you have your character suddenly overpowered, and I definitely touched on this in previous episodes, but when your character has a level-up moment—and that’s often in the climax—there has to be aspects of it feeling earned. And the Chosen One trope can often make it feel like it wasn’t earned, which is going to lose a lot of the faith of your readers, or their investment in that protagonist and the outcome of their actions. So that’s kind of the one common issue that I see with that.

As far as how I would suggest addressing this is that you make sure that you’re seeding that Chosen One trope through the whole book, not just in the climax, to avoid that Deus ex Machina. If it was seeded, and the reader can see the payoff of that Chosen One-self as both surprising in that moment and inevitable in retrospect, looking back at the rest of the story, it’s not a problem. So that’s one way to approach it.

But if, let’s say, you don’t want the protagonist to know that they are the Chosen One until the climax, then there are several ways that can work here and that I have helped clients with.

First, see where you could incredibly subtly hint that they are (or will be) the Chosen One through their arena—so the world around them—or through secondary avatars. Even if the protagonist themselves totally miss those hints, or ignore, them or don’t believe them.

The second piece of advice here would be: very clearly establish what that Chosen One is expected to do, from whatever prophecies you have established. What powers signify the Chosen One? What actions signify the Chosen One? And everything else like that. So doing that in the abstract is going to allow your protagonist to believe that they 100%, without question, will fail in the climax because they aren’t the Chosen One. They don’t think they are the Chosen One. And then, only in that climax, in that fun little twist, you have that revelation for them that they are in fact the Chosen One and now have a chance of winning. But you have still seeded the concept of the Chosen One up to that point.

Third point here is—and this is kind of bonus points on the last one as well—have a secondary character be set up as the Chosen One. Make everyone believe that this other person is the Chosen One, so obviously the protagonist can’t be. And then the reveal in the climax isn’t, “Oh, there is a Chosen One.” It is, “Oh wait, no—the Chosen One is this person and not that one.” And that’s not Deus ex Machina, because you’ve established the expectations, the powers, all of these different aspects. And then the twist is simply who gets to use them at the end.

Fourth and finally on this: make that Chosen One trope an aspect of the worldbuilding, but not your protagonist’s mindset. So essentially, the protagonist doesn’t think about it at all while they are winning the climax, they are acting how they would even if they weren’t the Chosen One. Then only after the triumph as their ordinary, authentic selves, does the acknowledgment or revelation that they just did something that made them the Chosen One come to the surface and be explained to the readers. We were already talking about Harry Potter, so I’ll use that as an example—in book one, where he has his Chosen One status of, you know, “love makes you untouchable to someone as hateful as Voldemort,” and he just touches Quirrell, and he turns to ash and all that kind of stuff. The reader and the protagonist have no idea how or why that happens while it is doing so. Harry realizes that he has this slightly special ability. He does it. He doesn’t really expect to survive the situation, and he has no understanding that he is the Chosen One. But once he wakes up in the hospital, someone else—Dumbledore—explains to him, “Hey, this is why this happened. You are the Chosen One.” And this is a perfect example of him being the Chosen One had nothing to do with how or why he won in the climax. Therefore—well, I guess it has a little bit to do with why he won—but mindset-wise, it has nothing to do with it. He doesn’t go into this going, “I’m the Chosen One.” So, that’s one way that you can approach it. But still, you kind of have to set up a little bit for that. And they did in that book. They were seeding that Chosen One-ness from when he first met Quirrell and he wouldn’t touch his hands, and when he was explained to why his parents died—all that kind of stuff.

Sylvia: So, foreshadowing can be our friend as far as making sure we have elements of the climax throughout the story, especially to avoid Deus ex Machina. My novel that’s currently in the pre-editing published version, it plays a little—I did misspeak—it plays a little bit on the Chosen One trope. She gets told—because her power is omnipotence—it’s told from her point of view. So, you get to see the internal struggles and all of the morals telling her, “Okay, yeah, I could just make our enemies not exist anymore and we’d be fine. But can I live with myself if I do that?” So, she has friends and people telling her, “You have the power to just make this not a problem anymore.” But she’s sitting there going, “Hmm, I don’t know if I can.” And so, she struggles with that in and out. And in the end, there’s no Chosen One thing—it’s all of them working together.

So how do you balance avoiding the issue of Deus ex Machina and making the climax too predictable or expected? Especially with the Chosen One trope?

Rebecca: Right. First of all, subverting it is a fantastic option. I love it when people can take a trope and, like you just explained with your work, give it a nice little twist so that it’s not going to pay off or play out exactly how people expect it. That is a fantastic first step there.

Beyond that, I definitely have a couple of tools here that I regularly offer my clients if they’re getting anywhere near either end of that Deus ex Machina or way-too-predictable spectrum.

First of all, see how divorced you can make those foreshadowing aspects and the actual climax that will happen in the awareness of your protagonist. So, if your protagonist is, you know, going along and they have certain expectations for how the climax is going to go, see if you can drop those hints in a way that their brain—their POV—does not connect at all. So, if there’s going to be a magic sword dropped on their head to save the day, then have them always thinking about that sword in the context of their personal identity, and their social standing, and their school club, and not remotely in the context of killing a giant snake or defeating a ghost. That’s going to help it keep from becoming predictable or too obvious of what you’re building up to.

Second, go subtler with your hints. Do you, currently, in an overstated version of this book, have a hint bluntly stated? Okay, switch it to vaguer language. Does your protagonist find a book on the exact topic that they need to, so that you’re setting up your Deus ex Machina aspect? Okay, cool, if you think that’s overstating it, make the book in a language that they don’t translate particularly well. Or, you know, make it a book of riddles. Or make it a really biased book by, you know, some author who was trying to make this look as bad as possible, so the truth is, you know, somewhere in there, but it’s not obvious. Essentially, the hints only need to be clearly identifiable in retrospect. They do not need to be totally clear about what’s coming in the moments that they are coming up.

The third tool here would be to make sure that you are setting your protagonist up to reasonably expect something from the climax other than what it ends up being, and keep them focused on that incorrect expectation right up until the point where that shifts. If you foreshadow more than one way the climax might play out—with roughly equal likelihood established for the different options—then the one you end up going with won’t feel too predictable, because the reader didn’t know which way it was going to go until the last minute.

Lastly, this is definitely something to get outside feedback on. It can be very hard to gauge as the author of a work if something is coming across as Deus ex Machina.

Sylvia: So, are there any specific situations where there are exceptions to any of these Deus ex Machina guidelines? Especially like, you know, me writing in my book, you know, there’s not a lot of hinting and foreshadowing that can be done. You know, with her power being omnipotence, she has to build it up so, like, she can do small, minor things at first, but bigger things just wipe her out for multiple days. But also, like, if she were to find a book that would tell her exactly how to go about the things, she could just make herself read that language.

Rebecca: Sure.

Sylvia: So, like, what are specific situations where there are exceptions to any of these guidelines?

Rebecca: Sure. So, the exceptions are generally falling into three categories.

The first would be the opening of books. I have had clients ask me, like, “Oh, I think I have Deus ex Machina right at the beginning of my book.” And I'm like, that's not a thing. You're fine. The reader has no expectation that things are established or predictable in the opening of a book. So go as wild as you want. Just make sure that you explain it after the fact and maintain it as part of your worldbuilding.

Second—and that being said—be very careful in your series. You can rely on earlier books in a series as foreshadowing, but not all of the way, not 100%. You still need to remind readers about the world aspects, or character abilities, or previous events from previous books in the series that might come across as Deus ex Machina through the earlier parts of that specific book. You don't want to get to the climax of book four and have a creature show up that no mention was made of before in book four, but was a character in book two—and you're relying on your readers to remember that.

The last exception here is if you want to play with Deus ex Machina, the most accepting spaces for that story element would be in: absurdism genre of any description, in religious fiction—where it is literally the God in the machine that comes in and saves the day That can be a trope of that genre—and sometimes in flash fiction where there just isn't enough time or space to foreshadow much. But because of those genre requirements—or, sorry, restrictions—the readers are going to be prepared for that, so it's not nearly as much of an issue.

As far as your specific examples from your book, I think that if you simply pay attention to that aspect and you do as much as you can without breaking your story, that’s plenty. And if your book is specifically, as it sounds like, built around this idea of omnipotence, and you're playing with these exact elements and concepts that could build into Deus ex Machina, then you're going to have the readers kind of on your side more. You're going to already have them more on the page of “We can't see everything coming,” or “We can see everything coming and there's only so much we can do.” So, if you have themes of the same aspects that are going to end up feeling like Deus ex Machina in the payoff woven throughout, you're doing—hopefully—enough to prevent that from really feeling that way. But again, if you really have concerns about that, get outside feedback and see what a developmental editor or a really, really good beta reader might be able to help with around that.

Sylvia: So, one thing that I've done, trying to get around the idea of that, is she is, like, halfway through the book when she finally figures out she has a power. The first half of the book is her realizing, “Oh, hey, I'm suddenly not an outcast. I'm suddenly super popular.” Everything she's ever wanted is finally happening for her, and she's got no clue. So, when she finds out her crush has a superpower and, you know, finds out from this guy who works for the—like, it’s a super soldier who’s been, like, secretly trying to feed them information because he's like, “This is… this is bad, this is bad, this is bad. I know what you're doing. Please just, like, be safe.” They tell her friends, and everyone's like, “Oh thank God, we have powers too.” And she's like, “Oh, okay, so I’m the only one who doesn't.” And it gets broken down for her—“Have you not noticed that everything you've pretty much ever wanted outside of dating him has come true?”

She’s like, “Oh.” And they're like, “You have a superpower.” And then after that halfway point is when she starts getting the little bits of, “Well, obviously you're omnipotent, so you could just make this all end.” And she's like, “Oh.” She's like, neutral good. She’s struggling.

Rebecca: So, she's an example of—you set up the topic before you started introducing the overpower aspects. I think that's great. Hopefully this whole episode will be helpful.

Sylvia: So far, from what I've written, it doesn't feel like I'm at the point of the Deus ex Machina. Even, like, the very ending of my book is setting up that there are things that are too much for her, and if it’s too much she ends up very weak. Fortunately, it's helping me realize I'm not quite at the point of Deus ex Machina. Hopefully won't get there.

Rebecca: I mean, this is a self-editing series. It's not assuming that every story has each of these issues. And if listeners end up listening to any topic—including this one—and going, "Nope, I'm good," then that still served its purpose. You've still mentally checked to see if it is an issue, and if it is, then you can fix it.

Sylvia: Can you give us some examples of how you've seen Deus ex Machina show up in books you edited?

Rebecca: Yes. So, without outing any of my wonderful clients directly...

One example was a previously unknown creature—I don’t remember if it was like a chimera or a Valkyrie or something—that had never been mentioned before in that book showed up and completely took over for the protagonist while the protagonist was having a breakdown in the climax. And this was a later book in a series, which is part of why I brought that up earlier, was: apparently this—I’ll call it a Valkyrie because I don’t actually remember what it was—had been established in book two, but it had never come up. Not even one passing mention in the entirety of book four, until it shows up in person in the climax and completely takes the agency from the protagonist.

Another example that I have personally run across was—again—a previously unknown creature. Again, I don’t particularly remember, I think it was some sort of ogre, became the literal dungeon boss fight of this book that previously had nothing setting up for that. It was not a particularly D&D-ish kind of book. The boss had nothing to do with the frankly awesome villain that had been set up. It had nothing to do with anything up to that point. But it was the entire climax. So that was definitely not necessarily Deus ex Machina as, you know, a power coming in and fixing the climax—but coming out of absolutely nowhere as a major aspect of the climax, can also feel kind of like that.

A third example would be, oh, the protagonist passed out at the beginning of the climax, and their sidekick suddenly and out of nowhere, with no foreshadowing, became much more intelligent and powerful than it had ever been hinted at being. And again, fully took over the climax in making all of those hard decisions and enacting all of those greatest acts of agency instead of the now-unconscious protagonist.

All of these things, obviously, are about stealing agency. So even if it's not a God coming in and fixing everything, if it’s a large aspect of the climax that had no foreshadowing, or if it takes the protagonist's agency completely away, it is a problem—like I’d mentioned way back at the beginning.

Sylvia: So, those are all really great points. The only time I've seen, like, the previously unknown creature becoming the literal boss fight—

Rebecca: Yeah.

Sylvia: I think I was a child when I read it. But, like, the author basically fed little things to make the characters and the audience think that this one—like, think like Scooby-Doo—where it’s like, “Oh, this person’s probably the bad guy. This person’s probably the bad guy.” And it’s just this random side character who—you—they mentioned the appearance of once. Or, like, someone in passing mentioned that this random person came through town. So, what it’s—those ones is actually really fun because it’s like, oh, this person actually had nothing to do with it. They just had this creepy appearance or lived in this creepy house of every… Monster house! The old guy. They thought the old guy was the big bad villain, and it turns out the house was evil and actually wanted to eat them.

Rebecca: You can have twist reveals that aren’t Deus ex Machina. And... and I love them, so I’m really glad you pointed out those examples.

Sylvia: So yeah, just, like, you got to mention just little things—like this random guy that lives in town that’s really creepy. Or, you know, the creepy guy is the one everyone thinks is the bad guy, but the one over here kind of whispering it—like Gríma Wormtongue whispering it into everyone’s ears—is the bad guy.

Rebecca: It doesn't have to be clear at the time. It only has to be clear in retrospect. 100%.

Sylvia: And then. I know we need to wrap up, but I do have one last question.

Rebecca: Okay.

Sylvia: What are some of the best ways to fix a Deus ex Machina if we find any in our story or get feedback that something is coming across that way?

Rebecca: All right, so we've touched on a bunch, so I'll just list them real quick here.

-Foreshadowing or seeding—they mean the same thing, I just tend to use seeding more.

-Shifting more agency to the protagonist alone in the climax or whatever other moment you think has Deus ex Machina.

-Removing the overpowered aspects entirely to force the protagonist to win with whatever they have more.

-And then lastly, reducing how much help the Deus ex Machina aspect provides. So instead of killing the bad guy for the protagonist, they give them the small tool that they need to do so. Or instead of completely saving the day, they just distract the bad guy for three seconds while the protagonist can get away.

Those are... those are kind of the basic tools. And beyond that, if you Google Deus ex Machina, you can probably find more approaches or ways of looking at it.

Sylvia: To go with something you just said—like, taking just, you know, a small aspect of things—my first thought was the D&D movie.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Sylvia: Where it turns out the daughter had been invisible and slipped a cuff on, but what finally took out the witch was the druid coming in as an owlbear and just slamming her into the ground as the final blow.

Rebecca: And I love that moment because it's so good and it was perfectly built up and foreshadowed. So that is a fantastic example right there.

Sylvia: If the daughter had been the one to fully take down the bad guy when it wasn't really pointed at that she was really going to be doing much of anything, that could have felt a lot like a Deus ex Machina. But her just cutting off the magic powers, giving the druid a chance to just barrel through, that’s a perfect example of how to go about not ending up with it.

Rebecca: Absolutely.

Sylvia: So that's all the questions I have. Thank you so much. This has been a lot of fun and it's been very eye-opening for me, especially like with my fantasy series. Even what I’ve got so far—I say series, it’s either going to be one 700-page book or two 350-page books. I’ve got someone proofreading the 300 pages I have right now to tell me if I should make it one, like Lord of the Rings-length book, or split it into two.

So that also helped me realize for my fantasy novel how you identify who might have magic—and telling from the beginning, the eye colors, telling from the beginning that this character has eyes that might, might qualify, and then they do end up qualifying—that’s telling me—and it’s not also not like the big climax of the book, but it does tell me that, like, there’s not a Deus ex Machina drop in there.

Rebecca: Well, I'm glad to hear this was fun. This is very much fun for me as well. And honestly, that's like the perfect topic to end on because next week my next guest host and I are going to be going over word count and all of the ways that you should be paying attention to that in your books and in your self-editing. So, tune in, and hopefully that will be helpful as well.

Sylvia: It definitely will be.

Rebecca: For right now, I would really like to thank everyone for following along with this series. We would really appreciate it if you could help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Authors Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers. beyond this joint series. I also highly encourage you all to check out Sylvia’s awesome book and her upcoming books on—or sorry, at—Godsend Series on Facebook, or as SylviaPawnAuthor on TikTok. And I will definitely include those links in the episode description.

Thank you again, Sylvia.

Sylvia: Of course, I’m happy to be here. And this has really given me more of a drive to get back into writing. I had to stop for a while because of life events, but this has given me more of a drive—especially knowing that, like, I’m in the editing phase of book one. So that’s not something... I don’t really have to worry about trying to go in and adding more seeding into what happens at the end of book one, because there's enough there to kind of explain it.

Rebecca: Excellent. Well, I hope our listeners got as much out of it and thank you again. I’ll see you next time.

Sylvia: See you next time.

Rebecca: Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great, so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more or visit my website—linked in the description—to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Plot Holes & Character Inconsistencies: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 19

Tue, 13 May 2025 19:30:34 GMT

My sincere thanks to Sue Mills for guest-hosting!

You can find the links to Sue's books in the show notes below! I really appreciate her stepping in on short notice to cover for my usual co-host, Agnes Wolfe.

Episode 19 Overview:

Plot Holes & Character Inconsistencies

"What are plot holes and character inconsistencies? How can I best catch and fix them?”

In this week’s episode, Rebecca Hartwell, a developmental editor, discusses how to spot plot holes and character inconsistencies. Writing strong plots and fixing story problems are a big part of self-editing fantasy novels, which is just a little of what we cover in episode 19 of 52-Week Story Savvy.
In this episode, editor Rebecca Hartwell shares practical techniques for identifying and repairing plot holes, ensuring your story’s logic holds up from beginning to end. Guest host Sue Mills [suemillsauthor.com], author of contemporary romance of Whispers of New England, joins Rebecca to explore how small inconsistencies can undermine reader trust—and how to fix them without unraveling your whole plot.

They also dive into strategies for:

~Spotting contradictions and missing information

~Brainstorming solutions without creating new problems

~Addressing character inconsistencies in backstory, skills, and personality

~Seeding believable character growth throughout the narrative

~Evaluating feedback to distinguish true plot holes from intentional ambiguity

Whether you’re revising your first draft or troubleshooting a polished manuscript, this episode will help you strengthen your plot’s foundation and keep your characters consistent and compelling.

In This Episode:

~How to spot and fix plot holes

~Tools for reading your draft with fresh eyes

~Managing character inconsistencies

~Balancing believable growth and complexity

~Avoiding accidental contradictions

~Turning feedback into actionable revisions

Recommended Resources:

Hart Bound Editing Services – [https://hartboundediting.com]

Sue Mill’s Books – [https://www.suemillsauthor.com/]

Authors’ Alcove Membership Community – [http://authorsalcove.com]

Sue Mills on social media – [https://www.facebook.com/suemillsauthor]

Book Giveaway – [ http://authorsalcove.org ]

See you next week for episode 20: Deus Ex Machina!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 19 Transcript:

Plot Holes & Character Inconsistencies

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Boud Editing Podcast. This is episode 19 of the weekly Story Savvy series where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great, as a published author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. My usual co-host Agnes and I have covered a bunch in this series so far and last week my guest host Lyndsey and I went over self-editing for appropriate intensity.

Today, my temporary new co-host Sue and I are going to take a look at planning plot holes and character inconsistencies. By the end of this episode, you'll hopefully feel confident identifying where you have plot holes. You can hopefully know how to approach plugging them and have a better understanding of how to play with character consistency and inconsistency skillfully.

Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and former client Sue Mills, the author of four books, all in the Whispers of New England series. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about you and your work before we dive in with our first question?

Sue Mills: Hi. I am excited to cover this topic with you. I think it's what many newer authors think is the entirety of macro self-editing. A little bit about me; I have been writing since 2020. I am a lifelong reader and didn't think I'd ever be a writer.

Rebecca edited my first manuscript. She was the first person to read it. A very, very, very rough draft. She gave me insight and tidbits that I still hear in my mind today as I'm writing. So, I am very appreciative to her.

I write steamy, cozy love stories. I don't necessarily call them romances because I don't always hit all those beats. They feature men with a little bit of vulnerability and the strong women they fall in love with. And they also have a very strong family and friendship component. I have a free prequel that's available on my website and I have published four books. My fifth one is coming out on May 15th. Yeah, I'm rapid releasing.

I release every 60 days. They're about—250 pages is the length of my books. Generally, the last one is actually longer than that and so I am very busy with writing and editing all the time.

Rebecca: Sounds like it. And I don't know if you know this, but your book that I read and gave feedback for was I think like the second book that I ever edited like that. So, it still lives in my head to a pretty good degree too because I was so new to that and your stories are very sticky.

Sue: So, to get started, what exactly is a plot hole and how can we identify them?

Rebecca: So, plot holes can show up in a couple of different ways. The most obvious one, in my opinion is just inconsistencies. So, you establish something in chapter five and then in chapter seven that's different. It's not consistent with what had been established previously.

Another way that this can show up is contradictions. So not necessarily just it being different, but you say two things that directly contradict each other. Kind of two ways to look at the same thing, but I still wanted to say that.

Another way to look at plot holes is assuming the reader knows something that you never told them. So, if 2/3 into the book you mention, “oh, this character as the king did so and so,” but you never told anyone who the king was or anything like that, where you are relying on the reader having information that you forgot to actually give them is a plot hole.

Another way to look at it is: a plot hole is a break in logic which you haven't established as part of your world building. And I know you write contemporary romance, so logic is pretty simple for you. For folks in the fantasy space that can get a little bit more complicated because magic can break a lot of logic rules, but you need to do those in an intentional way. And when it's not established intentionally, that can come across as a plot hole.

As for how to spot them as you're doing your self-editing, there are a couple of things that I recommend.

First and foremost is trying to read like a reader rather than like the author who wrote it, which I know can be very difficult, or reading like an editor. When you're reading like a reader, it's more likely that you're going to catch plot holes rather than catching typos or grammar mistakes or thinking, “oh man, I edited for my message way back in this process. I'm not sure it's coming through.” Trying to read as a reader can really help catching the plot holes.

You can also try consuming it differently from how you normally would. Such as consuming it with your ears through a text-to-speech software rather than with your eyes. Or you can change your formatting, so, your font and your spacing and all that kind of stuff. And you can try putting it on a different device. So, if you have done all of your reads so far on your laptop, try downloading it on your phone or your Kindle, or print it out and read it physically. Getting that consumption of your story coming through a different part of your brain, even if it's just a little bit different, can really, really help in consuming it with fresh eyes.

Lastly, outside feedback is really vital to plot holes because—especially for the kind of plot holes where you're assuming the reader knows more than they do or was told more than they were—it can be almost impossible to see that from the inside. So, getting outside feedback is very, very important.

Sue: Okay, thank you. What if the plot hole seems so big that it will change your entire story? What do we do then?

Rebecca: This can be very daunting. I have faced this in my own books, so my first and foremost recommendation, which I know I've said before and will probably say again, is: set things aside and let it ruminate. Let your subconscious mull over it for a while.

When you've done that, if that's even needed, then brainstorm a series of alternate solutions. So, if the first solution that came to mind is going to break the story, then just brainstorm if there are other ways that you could plug the hole—other fixes that might have much smaller impact and allow the story to stay more how it is.

You can also consider scrapping or replacing the element that's introducing that big of a plot hole. That's what I ended up doing in the first book that I wrote is I had a magical tool that was breaking the world and I couldn't come up with a way to plug that plot hole that wouldn't destroy the story. So, I ended up taking that element out entirely and replacing it with something similar that wasn't as big of an issue.

Lastly, you can decide just which side of the problem is worth it. If you've gone through these other options and you're still looking at either having a massive plot hole or completely changing the story, you just need to really sit with yourself and decide if it's worth changing that plot hole—or, sorry, fixing that plot hole—but changing the story or not doing that. You're going to have to pick between one of these two evils and put in the work to do what you can with one side or the other.

Sue: Right. I have used at least two of those solutions. I do a lot of “what if? What if this, what if that?” and then the other thing. I have tried to hammer pieces into stories and finally said, “you know what? This has got to go. I can't make it fit.” So that's really helpful.

What if, when we have others read our work, they see a plot hole, but we are purposefully setting up ambiguity for items later in our series? Would this be more how we are executing the plot?

Rebecca: So, yes, it has something to do with, you know, setting up expectations and that is part of the plot. So, I think that this would count as executing the plot. A few options for approaching this outside feedback, and feeling like they're misinterpreting it, include:

Ignoring that feedback. That is always a valid option. It should never be your default option, because then what's the point of getting outside feedback? But if you read a piece of feedback about, “hey, this plot hole is bugging me,” and you sit with it and you're like, “no, I'm right, they're wrong, they missed something,” then you can make the choice to ignore that. However, I suggest that at a minimum, you try reading whatever section they flagged as having a plot hole with fresh eyes as much as you can, and make sure that your wording and the way, the exact way, that you're presenting it is coming across how you'd intended and in a way that will be clear to your readers if they aren't inside your head.

Also consider not using mystery and intrigue in the form of withholding information as momentum. I often give feedback about this to my clients. When you're doing that, which is often where you will get outside feedback “of this is a plot hole,” but you know that it's not, it's because you're trying to introduce this question of, “wait, I don't understand. I'm going to keep reading so that I can understand.” And that's not actually the most effective means of momentum. If you instead choose to provide these details that are being withheld—that is creating this sense of a plot hole—when you provide those details, you can instead use anxiety, excitement, or anticipation as that forward momentum, which can often be a lot healthier for the story.

Sue: I have read books where I've been so confused and I keep reading because, “okay, well, eventually they're going to tell me what's going on.” But that can be very aggravating.

Do you feel that all plot holes need to be fixed?

Rebecca: I suggest fixing as many as you can, and especially any that an outside reader spots. To be clear, even huge books and—and I can think of Harry Potter right off the top of my head—have tons of plot holes, but they are usually buried deep enough that most readers don't notice. Only the superfans who reread and re read and reread and kind of get obsessed are going to spot them. So, if you can get your book to at least that level as far as plot holes and character inconsistencies go, where someone who reads it once casually is not going to spot them, that's okay. So, my advice is fix everything that you notice, but don't stress yourself silly trying to catch everything. And if you spot a plot hole after publication, yeah, maybe make a note of it so you can change it if you ever do a re-release. But don't over stress it. Just fix what you can find.

Sue: Do you have any advice on how we approach plugging pothole—plot holes?

Rebecca: *laughs* I mean, potholes are not my specialty.

Sue: Plot holes, sorry about that.

Rebecca: No worries. I suggest listing them first and foremost, just in a separate document. And I say this a lot. Keep your manuscript and your notes separate. List all of the plot holes that you spot that you can think of, that you find, that you get outside feedback on. And then list everywhere that that one plot hole comes up if it comes up in multiple spots. I know that when I have faced the big issues with that that I ended up having to take out, I had to go through and flag, “okay, well, the”—let’s call it a compass—“the compass comes up here and here and here and here and here and here.” So having the list of where it comes up is going to help me when I'm looking at that going, “okay, well, it served this purpose here and it served that purpose here. So, I need to bear all of that in mind when I am thinking about how to fix it,” which is the next step that I recommend. Just brainstorming a few options for how to plug that plot hole until you find one that, you know, feels like that little light bulb moment.

If no solution comes to you, if you're really, really stuck on this, then flag it to come back to later when your brain has had more time to mull over that topic.

After that, and whether or not you use the brainstorming or setting it aside, then I suggest just planning how to apply the changes before actually going into the manuscript to make sure that they aren't going to introduce new plot holes. Because to use the boat analogy, you can't take a section of hull from over here to plug the hole over there if that's going to create a new hole.

And then lastly, just apply the changes. And if you want to, if you're like me, then add a note of it—just one sentence—to the list of things to keep an eye on the next time you do a full read of the manuscript to make sure that you didn't miss any spots where it comes up and that change needs to be applied again.

Sue: I like the idea of listing. That wouldn't be something I've done, but I like that.

So, let's talk about character inconsistencies. What are we watching for exactly that could count as a character inconsistency?

Rebecca: Some of it can be backstory. So, for example, if you establish that they were an orphan in one scene and then mentioned them trying to go visit their father several scenes down the road. So make sure that you have a little paragraph written out in your series bible or your character sheets or whatever you're using to keep track of what backstory you have established so that you don't have inconsistencies there.

It can be inconsistencies in their priorities and their goals. So, for example, if you have a character who is very fastidious and very clean and very organized at all times, then them having a goal of creating chaos in the world is going to be harder to pull off consistently than if they have a goal and priority of “no, no, no, no, no. We need to get everyone following the laws perfectly and get everyone, you know, lockstep and being a member of society.” So, when you have priorities and goals that are inconsistent within their personality, that can come across as character inconsistencies.

Similarly, it can be inconsistencies in their skills and interests, and this kind of ties into that backstory. So, if you have a character that, perhaps their introduction is them working at an accountant's office, then later, if they fail to do enough math to play cribbage with someone, that's going to be a skill inconsistency. Because you've established they're good with numbers and they're interested in getting all of the numbers just right in spreadsheets and everything like that, then having that no longer be a skill or no longer be an interest later, or vice versa, that's going to be a problem.

Probably the most common way to look at this is just in their personality and responses. So, if they are a bubbly, outgoing kind of person, then suddenly having them be super nihilistic and angry at the world—if it comes out of nowhere and doesn't have any grounding—can absolutely feel like a character inconsistency.

As far as the responses go, this can often be looking at their default response. So, their knee jerk reaction when something comes out of left field and throws them off balance. And basically, you just want to make sure that if someone is a very reactive person in general, they are generally going to be very reactive. And if they are generally someone who kind of shuts down when these unexpected things happen, that's their default. And they're always going to default to that, even if the step that they take next sort of matures over their story arc.

Lastly, and this is the easiest to fix, is inconsistency with the names. So, naming a character Alice in one scene and Tanya in the next, which I've been guilty of. And we will actually do at least one full episode, if not two, later in the series, just on catching and fixing name issues in a story.

Sue: I've had that happen too.

What if, like I asked earlier, with the plot holes, I get feedback from an outside reader about character inconsistencies that were actually just how I was trying to have that character be? Especially if I was going for character depth or complexity or just an unstable character, since some people are that way. How would you deal with that?

Rebecca: So, first of all, I'm far more hesitant to recommend just ignoring that feedback when it comes to characters than I am with plot holes. I suggest specifically for the issue of feeling like it came out of nowhere, but you wanted them to have that change, try back threading or seeding that inconsistent part more, however subtly. So if you know that at your climax, you want this character to have a bit of an outburst that is out of character for them, then go back through the first three quarters of your book and give little hints that they are repressing that aspect of their character or that they are, you know, having smaller outbursts or removing themselves from a situation so that they don't. If the reader sees that inconsistent act and goes, “oh man, yeah, they did—they were setting that up. I can totally see why they finally, you know, had their outburst,” that's going to feel a lot better. So, if an outside reader gives you that feedback, look at seeding it.

Another way that you can look at this is if. If you're going for instability or volatility in the moment where that gets flagged, then name it in that moment. A lot of why that can feel wrong or off to a reader is if they feel like the author is doing a bad job. If they feel like the author got off track or lost track of who this character was supposed to be. However, if you as the author, make the choice to name—through narration or more ideally through the POV character in that scene—"oh my God, I can't believe they just did that.

They're batshit crazy,” then the reader is going to understand so much better “Oh, that was intentional. I see what they were going for. I see that it was intentional. I see that. That it was purposeful. It was not a mistake.” And they are far more willing to just accept that that is the reality if you name it. Even, you know, one sentence tucked in into everything else.

The last thing that I want to mention here is: remember that fictional characters with rare, expert, super experienced writer exceptions, cannot be as complex as real people. You do need to pick a happy medium spectrum for a character which is narrower than reality—narrower than you or I or anyone listening to this—but is still interesting. So, you can't try to make it too complex. Fictional characters are just—they don't come across well if you try to make them truly, realistically three dimensional. However, obviously, you don't want them to be flat characters. So, giving them a narrowed but still, you know, useful range for their complexity and their depth can be very, very helpful if you're getting that feedback.

Sue: That's really helpful. I'm in the process of writing—I'm going to have a character do something totally unexpected and you’ve given me some things about how I should approach that.

What type of character inconsistency do you see the most often?

Rebecca: Oh man. Probably immaturity is number one. I most often—when I'm flagging character inconsistency, it's because—it's usually a protagonist and that protagonist has been established as competent or confident or intelligent, educated, any higher sort of stable, mature traits. And then they'll have a scene where they're acting like a whiny ten-year-old. And it bugs me on a subjective level, but on the objective editor side, it breaks what was established for that character. And the reader is going to end up sitting there thinking, “were they lying about who they were? Did the author set me up, you know, to think they were a lot better than they were?” And it's really going to change the reader's opinion of the character who shows that inconsistent moment of immaturity.

Another way that I will often see this come up is just the opposite of that. So, you have a character that's generally kind of lost and panicky and doesn't really know how to cope with their world. And then out of nowhere they have too much competence, or confidence, or education that was never established or grounded. And again, this is mostly an issue because the reader is going to look at this and go, “what did I miss? Where was the lie? Because there's now two truths and I don't know which one to believe. So I'm going to emotionally back off from my investment in this character,” and that is not what you want.

Another way that I'll See, it is the character ends up doing or saying something that makes them seem very stupid. And this is often because they do or say something that the established self, how they've been built up to that point, would have noticed the thing that they are now completely oblivious to. Or they would have cared about the thing that they now seem bizarrely callous to. Or they would have known the information that they now seem to have conveniently forgotten.

One other way is that the character picks goals that are at odds with their backstory. And I already touched on this a little. So that's when, let's say their backstory is that they were an orphan and grew up in poverty, and now they are desperately just trying to find a track for their life. If they then pick a goal of, let's say, I don't know, getting their own personal airplane when, when they're still trying to get out of poverty, that's a misalignment. That's not going to make sense. So, you need to make sure that whatever goals that you want them to have or that they need to have to move the plot forward—you have to make sure that it's lined up enough with the backstory that you've established that it makes sense. And I've seen that in a couple of different books that I've edited.

There's also having too wide of a (variety in) knee jerk reactions, which I mentioned earlier. I've definitely seen that in, in several books that I've edited. I've had to fix that in my own work. And it's basically just making sure, like I said, that if they have a certain default response when, when the universe comes down and flicks them off their balance, that that remains more or less consistent. I've definitely seen that.

And then lastly, it's when a character—usually a secondary character—is trying to wear too many hats. If the protagonist is taking on a couple of different roles, is complex, is deep, that works better than if you have, let's say, a mentor character—so secondary, but still relevant to the plot—that is trying to be the mentor and the villain and the, and the, and the. And if you have a secondary character wearing too many hats, that can also be an issue to keep an eye on and fix.

Sue: Okay. Do you think it's sometimes okay to have characters act out of character? And would that be the same thing as character growth?

Rebecca: Yes and no. I think that character growth is vital, and I'm really glad that we're touching on this. What needs to happen there is that seeding and back threading that I mentioned in answer to a previous question. So, if you want a character to act out of character, then you need to hint—and it can be incredibly subtle, just one little moment of nonverbal communication that's described or there's certain wording choices when something similar happens before then. They can still act consistently, but when you have that out of consistent moment, the reader has to be able to look at things before then and go, “oh yeah, I could have seen that coming.”

And as far as character growth goes, it's really the same thing. You just need to show them taking one step in that growth at a time. And I have actually seen this in books that I was editing and given feedback on it when the author tried to build up a character growth that was pretty much flat until that moment. And then they were like, “here, now they're this person.” And that's not how that works. And the readers aren't going to believe it because people don't actually change in a snap, or overnight, or whatever that is. So, make sure that you're building up progressive movements toward it, and some backsliding, and then they get a little bit better towards that change, and then they have another setback and actually building a dynamic arc to that character change over time, over the spectrum of the book, and giving them reasons to make those steps of change are absolutely vital.

Sue: Okay, I know we need to wrap up. I do have one last question, and that is: how does character consistency and having twist reveals about shapeshifter characters work together? Like if a villain is revealed to secretly be an ally, or the other way around?

Rebecca: Again, back threading can help a lot, but specifically for shapeshifter characters—which is a term from the hero's journey sort of story structure concept, this is when any character who was established one way reveals themselves to be another—you can also handle this with making that moment feel like what it is. And to try to explain that a little bit more, this kind of goes back to naming if a character is suddenly acting insane or diabolical or whatever that is. If you have a scene where you want a character to have that shape shift moment and have that moment of, “oh my gosh, you're saving my life, I didn't think that you were on my side,” or the moment of, “oh, you're the villain, oh boy,” then treating that moment as important and having your protagonist or your POV character have that moment of processing that change in a very narrow, focused, tangible way can go a long way towards making that shapeshift moment, that moment of changing who this character is on a dime, make a lot more sense. Readers are keyed up for those moments, so if you present them for what they are, that can be all you need.

Sue: You've given us a really great information. Thank you so much and this has been so much fun.

Rebecca: I'm so glad to hear it. And again, thank you so much for stepping in to be a guest host on the show. It was really a pleasure.

Next week, my next guest host and I will go over one of the biggest story-breaking issues you can possibly have, which is Deus ex Machina, including what that means and how to fix it.

For now, I would really like to thank everyone for following along with this series. We would really appreciate it if you could help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Authors Alcove Podcast where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series.

I also highly encourage you all to check out Sue's charming romance books at SueMillsAuthor.com and to follow her on social media under the same handle:

Sue Mills Author.

Thank you so much.

Sue: Thank you. Looking forward to it.

Rebecca: Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more or visit my website linked in the description to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Appropriate Intensity: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 18

Tue, 06 May 2025 00:50:44 GMT

My sincere thanks to Lyndsey Luther for guest-hosting!

You can find the links to Lindsay's books and social media links in the show notes below! I really appreciate her stepping in on short notice to cover for my usual co-host, Agnes Wolfe.

Episode 18 Overview:

Appropriate Intensity

"Am I "pulling my punches" anywhere in my book where I want to, or could, dial things up? By severity/extremity, action, emotional impact, etc.? Am I taking anything too far to an extreme for my genre, audience, or message?"

Curious about how to get your intensity level just right to make your readers fans? Want to know how to edit your book yourself and learn all about balancing high and low intensity scenes in genre fiction? In this full-length episode of 52-Week Story Savvy , developmental editor Rebecca of Hart Bound Editing and guest host and published fantasy author Lindsay Luther dive deep into self-editing for appropriate intensity, and why it’s so important on so many levels.

This isn’t a grammar lesson—this is about storytelling and self-editing strategy. This episode explores at what level of the story you should be checking the intensity, what standards or guidelines you should be measuring against, and most importantly HOW you can adjust your intensity up or down where you want to, with or without altering other aspect of your story.

In This Episode:

How can we make increases and decreases in intensity feel grounded and natural?
Are pacing pacing and intensity related? How do they affect each other?
Is it possible to turn up the intensity too much or too quickly in early chapters?
Is there a rule of thumb of how to know when to up or down within our scope?
How can we adjust our intensity if we DON’T want to change our stakes or goals to do so?

Whether you’re outlining your story or revising your finished draft, this episode will help you hook your ideal readers and turn them into fans by nailing your intensity, and using it like a pro.

Recommended Resources:

Authors’ Alcove Membership Site – [ http://authorsalcove.com ]
Lindsay Luther’s Books – [ https://lyndseyluther.com/ ]
Book Giveaway – [ http://authorsalcove.org ]
Lindsay Luther on social media – [ https://lyndseyluther.com/contact/ ]

See you next week for episode 19: Plot Holes and Character Inconsistency!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 18 Transcript:

Appropriate Intensity

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 18 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as a published author asks me—a developmental editor—all of the questions that you have wanted to. My usual co-host Agnes and I have covered a bunch in this series so far, and last week my guest host Christy and I covered nailing your story stakes.

Today, my new co-host Lyndsey and I are going to take a look at checking and using appropriate intensity in your story, including around those stakes. By the end of the episode, you will hopefully feel confident identifying whether your book is too intense or not intense enough, and how to adjust that if needed.

Joining me to ask all of those questions is Lyndsey Luther, my friend and the fantasy author of Green Cloak. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about you and your stories before we dive in with our first question?

Lyndsey Luther: Sure. I’m really excited to be here today to tackle this really interesting topic of making sure that your story lands just right with your readers. It’s so important.

I've been a fantasy author for about 20 years, although I really only started self-publishing my novels five years ago. Green Cloak is a high fantasy murder mystery with no spice but plenty of innuendo and witty banter. If you like Scott Lynch's Gentleman Bastard series or Jim Buscher's Dresden Files, you'll probably enjoy my work. I've been a regular contributor at Reactor, formerly known as Tor.com for over 10 years, penning the Stormlight Archive rereads and a plethora of other Sanderson-related content. In addition to my own works, I've also been a beta reader for Brandon Sanderson for about 10 years, so I'm always keenly interested in seeing how the editing process of other authors and industry professionals differ or align to the ones that I'm familiar to.

So, let's jump right in, shall we? Are we looking at intensity globally? As in, are we looking at the whole story, or are we looking at it more chapter by chapter?

Rebecca: I would say the latter, so scene by scene or chapter by chapter, but still keeping an eye on where your intensity is topping out or bottoming out overall. Because that is the global impression that you're going to leave. The reader isn't going to remember necessarily what the average was, but they're going to remember the lowest or the highest moments.

Lyndsey: So, what are we measuring against to tell if a scene or the overall book is the wrong intensity in either direction?

Rebecca: First of all, it’s definitely genre, sub-genre and niche. As an example, in a sweet small-town romance, you're going to have very different intensity expectations than you would in a, let's say, taboo mafia romance. Those need to have very different intensities, and that is heavily dictated by what kind of story you're choosing to write, and what genre you're choosing to market it as. Yeah, just getting it wrong for your genre is going to miss the mark, and that's not good.

The second consideration here is your audience. And that's why Agnes and I covered this really, really early in the series. So, two different people could both be writing action adventure, rebellious fantasy. But if your audience is young adult or a middle grade, that has a much lower, in this case, intensity expectation than if you're writing it for, let's say, Grimdark fans. So even if you're writing in a certain genre, knowing who your sub audience is within that genre can be very important.

The third measuring stick to use here is just if you're worried about boring your readers or overwhelming them at specific points, I suggest that you look at the intensity in those specific places, regardless of your genre and audience.

The last point to measure on here is what impressions you wanted to leave with your readers and/or what message you wanted to get across. If you want to leave them thinking about the value of family, that is kind of a lower intensity message than if you want them thinking about the survival of a species on the planetary level.

Lyndsey: That’s definitely higher intensity.

Rebecca: Exactly. So those are the four measuring sticks that I suggest everyone bear in mind. Mind when you're looking at this topic.

Lyndsey: So, what types of things can we use to increase or decrease the intensity of a scene if we feel that it's warranted?

Rebecca: You can look at this as how high the stakes are or low the stakes are, like we talked about in episode 17, which is largely about the physical, tangible, external factors. Or you can look at intensity like sort of the action versus processing rises and falls like I talked about in episode 13, which can be much more of an internal emotional factor. But there are other ways outside of stakes and that pacing consideration to look at around intensity.

Number one, a question that you can ask yourself, is how much are the stakes on the table threatening or affecting the protagonist directly? For example, if the stakes are, let's say, shame, is the protagonist directly the one getting shamed? Or is it secondhand embarrassment, which, to be fair, in some people's cases like mine, is not much different? I hate secondhand embarrassment. And if it is, is the person actually getting shamed someone that is intrinsically, you know, associated with the protagonist, like a partner? Or is it someone that that protagonist can distance themselves from and not have to deal with on nearly the same level?

The second question that I suggest asking yourself is, how much does the POV character care about what is happening or being said? Or how invested are they in the outcome? For example, are they finally learning the secret that they've been pursuing for half the book, which would be kind of high intensity? Or are they politely half listening to someone drone on about something they don't care about, which would be incredibly low. Do they see someone getting mugged, and run over to intervene, which would be up here? Or do they keep their head down and keep walking, which would be much lower intensity?

Question three, or point three, would be, through what emotions or mindset is the protagonist processing? What's playing out in that scene? Let's say they are at a funeral. Are they relieved? Are they guilty? Are they grieving? By what grade of intensity is any emotion at for that? On the mindset side, are they thinking about the deceased's will and what fortune they may have just come into? Or are they thinking about when the widow will have recover enough to go on a date with them? Or are they optimistic about how the world is now a better place because this person is dead? Or are they pessimistic, thinking about their own death, Just deciding how they're processing, what they're thinking, where their mindset and their emotions are, can matter a lot.

A side note on this that I want to mention here is that intensity is often aligned with negativity in fiction writing, but it doesn't have to be. If you want to explore intense desire, and joy, and hope, and creative expression, or anything else incredibly positive in your stories, you totally can. But unfortunately, negativity bias is a thing in human psychology. So, it's more likely that your readers are going to perceive extremity and intensity in negative emotion in that space than in a positive one.

Lyndsey: You're going to have to work a lot harder with the positive.

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I know people try, and I've seen them succeed, so I just wanted to put that out There.

The fourth point that I kind of want to make here for how to affect intensity specifically is: ask yourself what, and importantly, how, are things being described through the POV that you're using? What are or aren't the protagonists noticing and paying attention to or ignoring and skipping over and in how much depth, either direction?

There's a balance to be struck between over describing and leaving things flat at all times. But you can play with this aspect in either direction as far as intensity goes. You can use deep descriptions to really increase intensity, to bring more emotion and investment to the surface and engage all of the reader's imaginary senses. Or you can use more expositional details to keep the focus on less intense aspects of the scene and to give the protagonist a lot more processing and internal debating time, which can reduce intensity.

When you take all of these different aspects into consideration you can, for example, make an epic battle remarkably low intensity by making your protagonist very calm about it and not that invested in the outcome and clearly focused on less intense things in your description. Conversely, you could make the most boring mundane chores super high intensity by dialing up those aspects towards the other end of the scale. It's just a matter of making sure that it all feels grounded and realistic in that story and that character.

Lyndsey: Really high stakes sandwich making.

Rebecca: Yes. Yes, I'd love to see it.

Lyndsey: Because intensity can be emotional or physical, will these increase together and decrease together, or are they two separate functions or aspects?

Rebecca: I think that most of the time you want them to go together. If you don't have them going together or running parallel, then you run the risk of the protagonist feeling unrealistically divorced from what's happening. Which is an issue that I regularly encounter with particularly my newer clients who haven't written much yet. That can either appear as the protagonist seeming unstable or bizarrely reactive if their emotions hare off towards this extreme intensity, but the events around them don't really support or justify it. Or, on the other side, it can show up as the protagonist coming across as numb and two dimensional if they fail to react realistically or appropriately to what's happening around them. But like I said with that, that battle versus chores example, sandwich making example, you can play with misalignments if you handle it carefully and consistently.

Lyndsey: Yep. Consistency is key. So, do you have any advice for doing that? Or more broadly, how can we make sure as we increase or decrease intensity, that it feels natural to the reader or just generally believable to the story that we're writing?

Rebecca: Yeah, first of all like we both just said, consistency is absolutely vital. How I would approach that specifically, rather than just that sentence is; don't have too wide of a range in your intensity. If you generally have a really intense book, let's say always on the, you know, the higher end of the intensity scale, it's going to be really hard to make a scene that is deeply lacking in any kind of intensity work well within that scope. Same for the opposite, like springing a super intense scene on a reader in an otherwise rather sweet, and cozy, and gentle story. So again, consistency is definitely number one.

Second, I'd say that if there are any spots around this time topic that you are concerned about in the book that you've already written, go back and read it again. Try to do so as objectively as you possibly can. Do you think that your reader will understand, in an emotional and logical way at that, at both of those levels, why the intensity level is as low or as high as it is through your protagonist? Is it going to make sense to someone who wasn't in your head while you were writing it? If you're looking at a high there, have you really justified your protagonist's big reaction? If you're looking at a low, have you grounded your protagonist's reasons or background for why they are so calm in that moment? Or, you know, grounded what is more important to them, at least, that they're focusing on instead of the big things that you are trying to dull down as far as intensity goes. So, essentially give reasoning, ideally subtle and shown rather than told to the reader where you feel your intensity, or any levels around that, need grounding.

The third point here for how to really apply these things or check these things is: go back to what I had talked about in episode 13 on pacing, but even more specifically in the last episode on stakes, and when in doubt, brainstorm the dots to connect between the two levels of intensity that you're trying to bridge. If that's the issue that you're encountering, if, “okay, I'm starting here, and it jumps up to here and I think that's going to be shocking,” or the other way around, try planning out, connecting dots and make sure that in the narrative you show ideally, but present in some way, even just a couple of words. For example, if you're going up in intensity, that can just be showing events escalating, or the protagonist reacting to each new revelation or realization in order. If you are taking the intensity down and you're worried about that big jump. This can be showing the protagonist, you know, calming themselves internally or connecting with whatever their support is, or choosing new, calmer things to focus on in descending order. Yeah, just so; consistency. What was my second point there? It was. Yeah. So, consistency, making sure things are grounded and backed up. And then lastly, you know, connecting those dots if you need to.

Lyndsey: All right, so how are pacing and intensity related? Do they affect one another?

Rebecca: They often run directly parallel along with the stakes. That's often the third layer that's in there. However, we have talked about different elements within the control of the writer in each of the episodes covering these topics. This is honestly just another lens to look through when you are checking all of these different aspects in your book, however briefly or in depth you want to, depending on how much you, the listener, are currently cringing, thinking “Yikes. Yep, I know where I need to go tweak things,” while listening to this episode. So, they're very often more or less synonymous, but it can be helpful to look at it from a different angle.

Lyndsey: Okay. All right. Do you think that it's possible to turn up the intensity too much or too quickly in early chapters, even if that's what we're going for for our genre or our audience or anything else?

Rebecca: I think that a number of the first-time authors that I've worked with had this impression. They think that you need to really ease the reader in and start at the ground and build your world up. That is not the case in my opinion, especially not in the genres that I work in.

Lyndsey: I agree. Maybe in a cozy fantasy, you know.

Rebecca: Like, maybe, but maybe I'd say it's the minority and probably not in anything that has higher stakes or action adventures. So, I personally say no, if it's. If it's. If it's the right choice for those sticks that you're looking at. Just like you said, I personally love a book that opens properly, intensely, if that's going to be maintained, at least regularly, if not constantly through the rest of the book. If you're going to open at a, let's say, eight out of 10, then you have to hit an eight out of 10 at least a couple more times through the book, otherwise it's going to feel off emotionally.

Lyndsey: That was definitely a trap that I fell into earlier in my writing career. I sent to some agents, and they were like, “yeah, this first chapter is not great. I think you could just cut it and start with the next one.” Yep.

Rebecca: Intensity helps, huh?

Lyndsey: Yep. So, I know it's important to vary the intensity like you don't want things to stay too intense for too long or, you know, too calm for too long. Is there a rule of thumb that you go by to know when to scale that intensity back and when to light a fire?

I wanted to say real briefly that I had actually seen a podcast about this and I was wondering if you would agree with it. It was an episode of Writing Excuses years ago and Mary Robinette Cowell was talking about, I think it was called Scene/React, where if you have something very intense that happens in, in one chapter, then the next chapter is the characters reacting to that and it kind of brings the intensity down a little in a lot of cases and then you know, there's another intense thing and then a react. So, I'm curious if you agree with that and, and also how you make sure that you aren't going back and forth too quickly.

Rebecca: Yeah, so those last two points very much sort of combine in my, my one sentence answer here, which is I think up and down, up and down is great, but it doesn't have to be a direct 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2. It doesn't have to be literally every other scene doing that pattern. So, I recommend a couple of rules of thumb for this that I have suggested earlier in the series.

So, number one is: save the highs, the highest highs, for the climax and the other global story points like the inciting incident and the midpoint and the other big ones. The lower intensity scenes will work much better in between linking those bigger moments. Number two is: I suggest avoiding having more than two or three of the same kind of scene in a row. So, you were talking about that scene react, which would be 1 (up), 1 (down), 1 (up), 1 (down). I think there's a little more flexibility around that. So, I suggest just avoiding, for example, three scenes in a row with high intensity and nothing to bring the energy back down and give the reader a chance to breathe so they don't get overwhelmed. Or three really low intensity scenes in a row with nothing to bring the energy back up. Obviously, the climax is an exception where you want to have multiple scenes in a row that are high intensity. Yes, absolutely.

Exercise number three or advice number three here would be: for going back and forth too quickly as a concern, just use those moments sparingly where you do a straight back and forth and remember that connecting the dots concept. So, if you're worried that you're doing too much black, white, black, white, black, white, just look for some levels of gray in between the two and spread those arcs out a little bit more.

Exercise number four would be: as for when and where to increase or decrease the intensity, there's one point I can make here which I don't think would be repeating myself. Readers pay more attention in high intensity moments within whatever your scale range is for your book and will remember those moments a lot better.

Lyndsey: It's true.

Rebecca: Yes, absolutely. So, you can use that to your advantage. And it might be worth adding, at a minimum on this topic, checking the moments in your story where you want the reader to be paying the most attention and remembering the most details and making them a little bit more intense if that moment needs it.

Lastly, on this when in doubt, just look at pacing, stakes and intensity as one beast, as one thread all the way through. And if you get one of those three aspects in great shape and it has a great arc exactly how you want it to look, with the highs and the lows and everything else, then just make sure that the other two are on that exact same path with it.

Lyndsey: That makes sense. So, I know we need to wrap up, but I do want to ask one last question. How can we adjust our intensity if we don't want to change our stakes or our goals to do so?

Rebecca: That's a tricky one, and a great question. I will admit that when I'm editing for a client and I notice that their intensity is off in any way, that it has issues, I will almost always recommend that they adjust their stakes because that is the easiest way to adjust the intensity. It just is. However, you can just use things like emotion and mindset. Like investment and impact. Like priorities and description, and the protagonist chooses to notice or give their energy towards around the stakes to adjust that intensity without changing the stakes.

However, at some point that gap will be too big for you to bridge. Well, for example, if you are aiming for, let's say, a low to mid-range intensity overall for your book, for let's say that hypothetical sweet romance that I brought up earlier in the episode, then literal life or death stakes are probably not going to work. Like if you're aiming for low to mid-range, then poverty, or social shame, or perhaps illness is probably a better extreme for your scale for what you want your intensity level to be. On the other side of that, the taboo mafia romance isn't really going to work as a taboo mafia romance if there's no literal life and death stakes, or at least, let's say, grievous injury.

Lyndsey: If Luca Brasi is not sleeping with the fishes, then there's no interest.

Rebecca: Yeah, exactly. So, you know when you when you know what your range is, you kind of need to pick a stakes within that that's going to make sense for your genre. But then you could use your intensity choices around all those other aspects we've touched on to adjust whether that stake is at its extremiest or at its mildest. So, there's some play, but there's not an entire intensity scale worth of play within your stakes choices. I hope that answers the question.

Lyndsey: Absolutely. Thank you so, so much. This has been awesome.

Rebecca: Yay! I am so happy you were able to come on the show. This has been a delight, and I really look forward to seeing at Ren Faires again this summer.

Lyndsey: Absolutely. We'll be around.

Rebecca: So next week I will have a new guest host, and we will go over, you know, what probably most authors probably think of as being the entire editing process, which is: catching plot holes and character inconsistencies. It's amazing how much more there actually is to it.

So, for now I would really like to thank everyone for following along with this series. I would really appreciate it if you would help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Author's Alcove Podcast where you can find lots more content for fantasy writers and readers. Beyond this joint series.

I also highly encourage you all to check out Lyndsey's awesome fantasy books@Lyndseyluther.com . Awesome, yes, that's the book. And to follow her on social media. She goes by Lyndsey Lyndsey Luther, Author Slash cosplayer on Facebook. And I'm going to let you pronounce that…

Lyndsey: Kiarrens.

Rebecca: Yeah. On TikTok. I will link all of this in the podcast description, so people don't have to guess spelling. And again, thank you so, so much for coming on the show.

Lyndsey: Thank you for having me.

Rebecca: Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more, or visit my website linked in the description to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Nailing Your Stakes: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 17

Tue, 29 Apr 2025 21:31:43 GMT

My sincere thanks to Christy Nicholas for guest-hosting!

Additional thoughts:

You can find the links to Christy's books in the show notes below! I really appreciate her stepping in on short notice to cover for my usual co-host, Agnes Wolfe.

Episode 17 Overview:

Nailing Your Stakes

"Do both the protagonist and reader have a clear understanding of what's at stake for global success? Or, more importantly, failure? Are those stakes doing their job?"

Today, Rebecca teaches you what every writer should know about deciding, defining, and delivering great stakes for your novel as we explore how to improve your story strength in this latest episode of the 52-Week Story Savvy self-editing series.

Rebecca Hartwell, founder of Hart Bound Editing is joined by published author Christy Nicholas to dig into knowing what stakes are expected in your genre, how to change stakes over the course of the story well, and brainstorming tons of stakes you could possibly use.

In This Episode:

Is it better to decide your stakes & edit them in, or use what you already have in place?
What are some other ways to look at life-and-death stakes?
How can you check that the stakes you are using are strong enough?
Do you need to show the level of stakes you’re using happening to the protagonist?
If the stakes don’t feel grounded, how can you fix that?
Can the stakes jump way up, or way down? How can that be done well?
By what point in the story do the stakes need to be clear?

Recommended Resources:

Christy Nicholas’s Books – [ https://greendragonartist.com/ ]
Authors’ Alcove Membership Site – [ http://authorsalcove.com ]
Christy Nicholas on Social Media – [ https://greendragonartist.com/about/contact/ ]
Book Giveaway – [ http://authorsalcove.org ]

See you next week for episode 18: Using Appropriate Intensity!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 17 Transcript:

Nailing Your Stakes

Rebecca Hartwell:

Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 17 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as a published author, this time, asks me, a developmental editor, all questions that you've wanted to. My usual co-host and I—that's Agnes Wolf—have covered a bunch of different topics in this series so far, and last week our first guest co-host, Isla, and I went over the topic of checking that you have a strong protagonist goal to help keep your story momentum moving forward.

Today my temporary new co-host and I are going to take a look at story stakes and using them effectively. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully feel confident identifying whether you have strong, appropriate stakes in your story and that they are working to keep things interesting and meaningful.

Joining me to ask all of the questions is Christie Nicholas, my friend and published romantic fantasy author of 26 books, including the Druid's Brooch series. Christy, why don't you tell us all a little bit about you and your books before we dive in with the first question?

Christy Nicholas: Thank you. I am Christy Nicholas, an author with genre ADHD. So, I do write in historical fantasy, but also urban fantasy and paranormal cozy mystery, all set in the home of my heart, my beloved Ireland. And I'm excited to be here today to tackle this fascinating aspect of meeting genre expectations in keeping the reader invested in our stories.

So, let's start by defining stakes. What do you say are the stakes of the story? What sort of things are we looking at in this topic?

Rebecca: There are a few ways of looking at this. The stakes can be the goal that's being chased, as I talked about in the last episode, or it can be a motive that's being run away from. But it doesn't have to be. It can be separate from both of those things.

So, I would typically define it as: stakes are things that can be won or lost. They are things that make a life better or worse to experience. They are things that can be like objects that can be gained or lost.

And looking at Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs can be very helpful in looking at stakes. If you're writing a genre that's dealing with basic survival, you want to look at that lowest level of that pyramid, and the stakes are often going to be food, shelter, water, sleep, those kind of baseline things. But different stories are going to be dealing with self-expression and the higher levels of that pyramid. So, if you're ever entirely stuck on what stakes you even want to start thinking about, looking at Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs can be helpful.

The last point that I want to make here is in order for the stakes to work well in the story, the protagonist must have some ability to affect those stakes, but it also must be somewhat out of their control. You want it to always be in that middle ground. So, the protagonist's choices must have the ability to move them up or down in their stakes. Their actions have to be able to have that effect, but it has to be harder to do so than simply deciding, “all right, I'm happy now.” So, there needs to be some aspect of they aren't in control of it, but they still have the ability to impact it.

Christy: Agency basically.

Rebecca: Very much so.

Christy: Is this something that we should be looking at globally in self-editing or chapterby chapter?

Rebecca: Both, to some extent, but mostly chapter by chapter, for from my approach to self-editing and for what I've walked clients through.

Where I suggest starting, if you're looking at this is name where the stakes need to be highest—and this is almost always going to be in the climax. So, looking at it globally, just know that if you have the highest stakes, so life or death or whatever the extreme is that your story is going to in chapter 10 out of 50, that's just going to feel off. It's going to feel like you can't build up any more than that to get to the climax. So, make sure looking globally, that it's at least, you know, peaking in climax.

Another thing to look at globally, in addition to the chapter by chapter is: think about your progressive escalations building up gradually in a way that makes sense to that highest stakes moment.

So, I will touch on this later, but I will mention here that you don't always have to do a strict, like, step, step, step. You can toss in a big escalation or a big drop in those stakes as a twist in the story. We'll get to that later, but there's ways to do that correctly.

And then lastly, when you've gone through and you've checked all the stuff that we're going to talk about chapter by chapter, just take a step back and then glance at how all of those chapter by chapter stakes are kind of coalescing into a larger global stake statement, and just make sure that that seems somewhat appropriate to your genre and somewhat, you know, coherent.

Christy: Makes Sense. So, can what is at stake change over the story or from scene to scene?

Rebecca: Yes, to both. In fact, variety in stakes from scene to scene is something that I very much encourage for keeping things interesting. However, that can be taken too far. If you're writing a horror novel where the global stakes in that climax are life or eternal damnation kind of stuff, then bouncing back and forth between that extreme negative and lesser stakes, like, let's say, sticking to a diet or not sticking to a diet is going to give the reader whiplash. So, variety is good, but so is staying roughly on theme and within a general intensity bracket, which is next week's topic for that episode all by itself.

Christy: Should we decide what our stakes are and then go put them in? Or look at what stakes we already have and then strengthen them?

Rebecca: Some of both. So, for the approach of deciding and then coming to the book, you have to know what your genre stakes are. This is why we cover genre first in this series before anything else. And you have to make sure that those stakes are threaded through major moments in your book if you want your book to be part of that genre. But beyond that, including which subcategories of the genre stake you are using, and for all of the scenes in between, finding what you already have in place to use as stakes and then clarifying or strengthening them as needed to bring them up to the level where they are noticeable to the reader and affecting how the protagonist acts and what choices they make, even in some small way, is a great approach to it.

It's totally fine to see: “Oh, in this scene, the stakes are shelter. Okay, I'm going to just make sure that that is very clear.”

This point right here should be the major takeaway from this whole episode: The point of making sure that there are stakes in every scene is so that the reader is locked in by their interest in seeing if those stakes are improved or worsened over the course of that chapter. So, if the stakes don't matter to the protagonist and—or the POV character, if that's not the protagonist—then it won't matter to the reader and the stakes won't be doing their one and only job in despite including them, at least superficially. So, yeah.

Christy: So, what are the different types of stakes, aside from life and death? I know you've already touched on that a little but can help us brainstorm it?

Rebecca: Absolutely. And this is honestly one of my favorite things to do when I'm helping a developmental editing client is: “All right, you need stakes here. Here's a bunch of cool ideas that I had.”

So first I want to make it clear that we should all always be looking at stakes in our stories as a spectrum rather than a binary. So, for example, the valence scale. So, the stake scale of romance genre isn't just love or hate option one or option two. It's different kinds of love. It's all of the internal and external stakes in expressing any of those feelings after you've acknowledged them. And everything at stake in the decisions around love, like moving in together, changing your lives to fit together, or, you know, letting your friendships go because you're spending all of your time dating your partner kind of stuff. There's, there's career repercussions, there's social repercussions, there's internal repercussions, and all of those are stakes within that overarching stake of love of the romance genre. So even, even if you just… So that's, that's sort of the branching off way to look at different stakes.

The other way that you can look at that is as a spectrum between point A and point B. So, it's a little bit more narrow, but you can still have many steps in between. So, you could look at that love or hate more as you have committed love as the ultimate plus. And then going down from there, you've got, you know, committed love, hesitant love, obsession, neutrality, indifference, dislike, hate—and then all the way at like the negative of the negative, you could have something like hate masquerading as love. Where the opposite of love isn't necessarily hate, it's pretending like I love you when I actually hate you. So, you can play with even just that straight spectrum in a lot of really fun ways and create your own from your life experiences and how you want to tell your story and all of that kind of awesome stuff.

As another example for one of the genres that I work with most in an action story, where you do have literal life and death stakes, like you'd mentioned in your question, that can be thriving, content—so thriving at the top, and then you've got—content and comfortable, you've got surviving, struggling, injured and or sick, probably going to die, but you're not yet dead. And then again you can go worse of the worse, worse than the end of that spectrum and say a fate worse than death, something like the damnation. So, you can play with these things, and I highly encourage folks to do so.

So, looking at those layers or, or spectrum, and branching stakes from an overarching stakes scale, is one way to look at those options.

Another is to reverse engineer what could be or is won or lost in that scene, which might—or hopefully—be related to the protagonist's goal but might not. For example, if their goal is, let's say, escape slavery. Then the stakes are freedom. And perhaps they lose those stakes by getting caught. Or maybe their goal is avoid getting distracted from my career goals by falling in love. So, the stakes are then affected by them going from obsession to hesitant love. And you can decide if you want to present that as a win or a loss. But it is moving from one step in that stake spectrum to another. And it's up to that protagonist's mindset and character build whether or not they see that as a win or a loss. You can decide that.

A third way to look at coming up with of brainstormed stakes for each scene is to look at those life and death stakes in three different ways, just taking that phrase, life or death.

The first is the literal physical death. This is the most common in action adventure, thriller, horror and a bunch of others like that. And it's pretty clear, so I'm not going to, you know, deliberate on it.

So, the next is death of goals. So, this could be career, or their life goals or their way of life, or anything else that they are passionate about or deeply invested in in a way that expresses with the outside world. So, this might show up in a story as moving further away or closer to getting the promotion that they are sacrificing everything else in their life to achieve. Or it could express like moving closer to or further away from continuing to live their culture under colonization that's trying to smash that out. And as someone who loves Irish culture, I'm sure you've at least thought about some of that kind of stuff. Or it could be losing or gaining degrees of inspiration and dedication to their expression as a painter. All of those little deaths or degrees between the ideal and that worst of the worst of that character's place in the world and their purpose in that larger world can very much act as a life-or-death scale in that different mindset around it.

The third way to look at life or death is the stakes of the internal death. This could be around their identity. So, for example, the protagonist has always identified as straight, but then they meet someone really, really special and they have to start questioning their identity as that orientation and have to go through that cognitive dissonance and probably coming up with a new identity for themselves. Or it could be about a belief, like a devoutly religious person who witnesses horrors working at a hospital, let's say, and starts losing their faith. This could also be… Yeah, so basically anything where the life value is certainty and internal comfort and you know who you are and you know what you believe in and you don't have to question that. And then the death value of this way of looking at life and death would be potentially life altering or personality altering internal changes that you have to go through a bunch of really uncomfortable cognitive dissonance to get to. And that death doesn't always have to be a bad thing. Even looking at it physically, the physical death can be a sacrifice, and that can be a very good thing, even if the protagonist dies at the end. I've read stories like that that were very impactful and especially. Yeah, and looking at the passion death or the internal death, sometimes that's necessary to become a better person or to find a better path in life.

So, play with these things. I know I've said this like five times in this episode, but this is a topic to play with. So, with these three different working definitions of life and death stakes, death of the body, death of the goal or the role, and then death of the internal or the soul, there are thousands of smaller stakes that fit into those spectrums. So please don't ever feel limited by it.

Christy: So how do we know we have a powerful enough “at stake” problem?

Rebecca: So, just talking chapter by chapter, you know that it's powerful enough if it just matters in that chapter. If at least some of the actions—it could be every single one, but it doesn't have to be—and choices that are made in that chapter, if they would be the same without the stakes there, then the stakes don't matter. If you took the stakes out and the conversation would go in a very different direction, if the protagonist would choose a different path, literally or metaphorically, then the stakes do matter, and you're fine, you're set, you have to worry about that further. Looking at the story globally, you need to look at the genre expectations which I mentioned earlier, if your genre or sub-genre or niche expects stakes of, let's say, life versus damnation, a fate worse than death, like in horror, then delivering only stakes of injury, like it maxes out at injury on that scale, is going to disappoint your reader. It's not powerful enough, but yeah, it's not that tricky. Just make sure that it matters and it's matching your genre, and you should be fine.

Christy: So how do we show how far we want to take the stakes in our story? Like you just mentioned. Injury and damnation are both on the life to death stakes spectrum you mentioned earlier. Do I need to show my protagonist receiving that fate worse than death to show that those are mistakes for my story?

Rebecca: No. And this is a misunderstanding that I have seen a couple of times from clients. So, happy to go into this. You can do it in a few ways that doesn't mean killing off your protagonist.

First, you can have a secondary character, or tertiary, or barely ever mentioned character, face that highest stake, ideally witnessed by the protagonist—but it doesn't have to be, just in some way in their awareness—and that can set those stakes.

Another option would be: establish that those max stakes for your story that you want to set are going to happen if XYZ happens. But then, you can let the protagonist, because they are aware that this is an option, avoid it.

The third option that I have mentioned to clients in the past is give the protagonist really grounded, consistent fears about that highest stake—so, about damnation—and make avoiding that, that, that highest stake such a driving motive for them throughout the story that it's just kind of always in the background. And it's been established that, “hey, this is possible to the point where I am making choices and taking actions to avoid it.” And that will set the stake even if the protagonists, because of their precautions, do ultimately succeed in avoiding it.

Christy: That makes sense. How can we check that the stakes will feel important and grounded to our protagonist and our readers?

Rebecca: So, looking just at the global—so the whole story together—I recommend exploring whatever your overarching stakes are. So be that love, or be that life or death, or be that enlightenment, or anything like that. Explore your overarching stakes from as many different angles, or sides, or approaches as is reasonable for your story. Including through secondary characters. Absolutely.

For example, in historical romance, perhaps you open with the protagonist helping her friend escape a bad marriage, because that's going to get that idea of marriage and love and relationships established. You have immediately set the stakes and you're exploring it from a different side. You're exploring it from a negative side. While if you're writing a proper romance, you will also be exploring it from the positive side. So, you're really doing more with it. Yeah. Or you could make the best friend someone who is pretending they love their spouse, but they secretly hate them. There's lots of ways that you can take those stakes and, through your secondary characters, or through your protagonist, just, “well, what if I looked at it from this point of view? Well, what if I stood over here and looked at these stakes?” And doing that is going to help the stakes feel so much more grounded and invested for the readers. Yeah. Basically, bringing them up in as many flavors as you Possibly can.

Another way to help with this is: establishing how far the stakes will go in chapter one is a solid option to consider. It's not a requirement. But mentioning, “oh yes, I don't believe in true love,” on the first page in a romance, or having a passing character killed off on the first page in an action thriller are solid genre choices. If you want to play with that.

On the chapter level, specifically answering this question, and especially if the stakes aren't connected to that global. So, let's say your global stakes are life and death. And in this scene, it is: “I need the esteem of these peers. I need approval from these people.” That's not connected really. But just make sure that the stakes can't be instantly, easily, or completely avoided by the protagonist. So, make sure it's embedded. Make sure it can't be gotten away from in that moment. Yeah, so like I said, make sure it's embedded. And make sure that it's affecting some of the choices or actions made by the POV or protagonist. That's kind of all you really, really need to make them feel important and grounded most of the time. Especially on that chapter by chapter, scene by scene basics. Beyond that, you probably need an external perspective like a beta reader or an editor to really tell you like, “hey, this scene didn't feel like it had stakes.” Because that can be something that's hard to tell on your own if you think you have some in there and it's not connecting with a new perspective.

Christy: Yeah, that second viewpoint can really help.

Rebecca: Yes.

Christy: How do we know if we are raising the stakes at appropriate increments? So, it seems believable.

Rebecca: Yeah. Like I mentioned very early on in this episode, that that can be very important, making it feel built up too. So how I recommend approaching that in the self-editing process is try writing out your spectrum however you want to, like I'd mentioned earlier with connecting committed love and hate masquerading as love with five or so connecting steps in between those. Then just try not to skip more than two of those steps in your particular specific spectrum at any given moment.

However, it doesn't have to be a big like, oh, I'm taking two chapters to cover this gap. It can be one beat, it can be one sentence, one thought, whatever you need to show—ideally more than just state it—that step being taken.

So, for example, let's say the scene opens with the protagonist obsessing over their crush. So that's pretty high up on that love scale. They are obsessing, they are crushing, they've got Heart Eyes, however you want to picture that. And then the crush does something awful, or cringy, or just mean, or something, and you want to drop it back all the way down to dislike. All it takes to sort of bridge that gap so that it feels grounded and realistic rather than out of nowhere, is give them one moment of going, “well, I think we could still be friends…” which covers that indifference and that neutrality before they go, “oh no, that was actually way over the line. I dislike them now.” So, it can be one little thought of “we could still be friends” and bargaining and trying to make excuses to cover a gap. It does not have to be a ton.

But also, let's say you want to surprise the protagonist and the reader with a bigger jump in stakes. Let's say a natural disaster strikes, killing someone when the stakes had previously only been, you know, up at that upper end of like, “oh, I'm doing fine in life.”

So, twists are great. And I touched on this earlier. This is where we're going a little more into depth in it. Twists are great, but you have to handle it in a kind of specific way. So, there are a couple of rules to bear in mind if you really want to do this.

The first is avoid deus ex machina. That means the God in the machine. That's when miraculous solutions come out of nowhere. Yes. So just make sure that whatever caused that leap in stakes in either direction is grounded and realistic in your world as it's already been established. So, if you're going to have a natural disaster come in, mention that it's been stormy, something like that. Just anything that kind of sets up a little bit of an expectation for it.

Second in making these big twists feel more realistic is make sure that the protagonist reacts to that more extreme jump stakes realistically. A bigger jump in stakes is going to throw them further off balance than a step of one or two at a time in any direction. So just make sure that the degree to which they struggle to react appropriately or metabolize it or process it matches the size of the jump.

Christy : Makes sense. So how do you determine global success or failure around mistakes?

Rebecca: So, I put this question in because I've been asked this question. The answer is: don't worry about it at the self-editing stage. Just focus on whether the goal of the protagonist, which I talked about in the last episode, was won or lost. And make sure that the genre appropriate stakes are as high as it makes sense for them to be for the whole book in the climax. That's it. Goal, make sure the stakes are there. From that, the stakes are either going to line up with the goal and they both win, or they both lose, or one wins and one loses, and you have a nice bittersweet thing there. So don't worry about that. Just focus on whether the goal is won or lost.

Christy: So, I know we need to wrap up, but I do want to ask one last question. How soon should a reader and protagonist be aware of what is at stake?

Rebecca: Yeah, like I briefly mentioned earlier; on the first page is great if that works for your style, for the story that you want to write, but it's not a requirement, it's not a rule. What I do consider a requirement and a rule, is that the global stakes and the extremity to which you intend to take it is established clearly by the midpoint shift. It should be established in the first half. If you do so, then you aren't going to have it feeling like it's coming out of nowhere in the climax. It's going to feel like you set it up and not like deus ex machina. And knowing what the stakes are going to be in the first half is really going to help pull the reader through the buildup to the climax because they know, “oh, you know, hate is on the line. Love or hate.” Or, what's the term… It's like “enlightenment and ignorance” is on the line. So, establishing what your stakes are is going to tell them, “oh, this is what's going to be at stake in the climax. That's worth reading for.” So, I recommend if you remotely can't, establishing it in the first half.

Christy : Makes sense. So, thank you so much. This has been great, of course.

Rebecca: And again, thank you so much for stepping in to host this on short notice. Next week I will go over the intensity levels and considerations for self-editing a story with our next guest host.

For now, I would really like to thank everyone following along with this series. We would really appreciate it if you could help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Author's Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this point.

I also highly encourage you all to check out Christie's awesome books at GreenDragonArtist.com and to follow her on social media as GreenDragonArtist9—numeral nine—on Instagram, or Green Dragon Author on Facebook. Go check out her books!

Christy: Thank you so much for having me on the show.

Rebecca: Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more or visit my website Linked in the description to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Momentum Through Protagonist Goal: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 16

Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:09:23 GMT

My sincere thanks to Isla Elrick for guest-hosting!

Additional thought:

On the question of "does the primary goal need to be won in the climax?" my answer was no, and I explain my answer. What I forgot to mention is that the core goal needs to be clearly lost, if it isn't won. It's a fine choice to go either way, but it can't just be forgotten, ignored, or set aside to pay off for your readers.

You can find the links to Isla's books in the show notes below, and can find her testimonial of her experience getting a developmental edit from me under the Testimonials tab in the site menu above!
I really appreciate them stepping in on short notice to cover for Agnes!

Episode 16 Overview:

Momentum Through Protagonist Goals

"Does my protagonist have a clear goal that pulls them through the story, impacting their big choices along the way? Is it presented in a way that improves my momentum and reader investment?"

Want to know how to structure a story plot in editing so it has great pacing? Rebecca shares what makes a good writer great, as she covers what are some good storytelling techniques, how to write a good plot for a story, and how to improve story writing skills!

Today, in the 13th episode of the 52-Week Story Savvy Self-Editing Series, Rebecca Hartwell answers questions from aspiring author Agnes Wolfe (authorsalcove.com), as they discuss your story’s pacing, and how to identify whether your story drags or moves too fast.

Rebecca, a developmental editor who has helped many authors turn their good stories into great ones, offers actionable steps to help you fine-tune your emotional rhythm and keep your readers turning pages, and shares actionable steps to help us know when and how to identify and fix pacing problems. Not only does she provide a way to map emotional highs and lows, but also how to interpret those highs and lows in a way that will best help writers identify when they need to adjust their pacing. Whether you’re on your first edit or tenth, this episode is packed with hands-on advice to help you strengthen your structure and deliver a satisfying reader experience.

In This Episode:

What is “good pacing” in a story?
How to spot scenes that drag or rush
How to use a plus/minus method to help with mapping scenes
When and how to break the “chapter rules”
Solving pacing problems

Recommended Resources:

Story Rise and Fall Shapes [ https://bigthink.com/high-culture/vonnegut-shapes/ ]
Authors’ Alcove Membership Site – [ http://authorsalcove.com ]
Book Giveaway – [http://authorsalcove.org]

See you next week for episode 14: Using Blurbs To Test Story Strength

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 16 Transcript:

Momentum Through Protagonist Goals

Rebecca: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 16 of the weekly Story Savvy series where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as a published author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you've wanted to.

My usual co-host Agnes and I have covered a bunch in this series so far, including last week's episode on checking your narrative style choices like tense, person, and POV.

Today my temporary new co-host and I are going to take a look at story momentum. Specifically around the protagonist's goals. By the end of this episode, you'll hopefully feel confident identifying whether you have a good, strong protagonist goal, if that goal —or those goals —are working, and if not, have a solid idea of how to improve them.

Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and editing partner Isla Elric. She's also a romantic fantasy author of several series I adore, including The Guardians of the Fey Gates. Why don't you tell us a little bit about you and your writing before we dive in with our first question?

Isla: Hi everybody, I'm Isla, I'm 28, I'm based in Central Maine, I have two dogs named Buffy and Drax and they're the cutest, they are my babies. Like you said, I'm a romantasy author. In my books I love weaving folklore and literature with gothic influences and I'm excited to be here today to tackle this really vital aspect of good story pacing and interest and pacing is one of my weak points so I'm very happy, I think it's very funny that I'm here for this one. I'm very excited.

Rebecca: Glad it will be helpful!

First question, by what point in the story does my protagonist need to have an overarching or a global goal?

Rebecca: You can find lots of different answers to this question depending on where you go looking but I've got two in mind from my experience as an editor.
Answer one is: as soon as possible, ideally the first page. I love it when I start reading a book and the first paragraph is like, "oh this is a goal, awesome I can run with that."
Answer two is: you want to have that goal in place and clear to the reader to some extent. As soon as there aren't other aspects like really solid action serving as noticeable momentum moving the story forward.

So, if your story opens with really exciting or bizarre things happening that are going to catch that interest, you don't really need to introduce that protagonist goal until those interesting aspects start diluting or fading off once the book really gets going.

I just want to say here as well that having a good strong goal on top of exciting or bizarre action is almost never a bad choice, so you can do both, but you can also usually get away with one or the other.

Isla: All right. Question two: by what point in the writing or editing process do I as the author need to know what my protagonist's core goal and smaller goals are?

Rebecca: In my opinion, not until the self-editing stage. I think that it is often easier to see what your protagonist's driving goal is or was in retrospect—looking back at what you actually ended up writing—and put in the work to clarify and strengthen it in edits than it is to try to write it in while you're drafting. So, this is the right point to figure that out—figure out what your protagonist's core goals are if you haven't already.

And to do so, if you don't know where to start, I suggest the following:

What does your protagonist want which consciously affects the choices that they make? This can be anything from attention, to freedom, to wealth, fulfillment, or more tangible things like a specific object or a specific role at work—position at work.

If you are struggling to answer these questions looking at your manuscript, you can try taking this more into a hypothetical sort of brainstorming space: If your protagonist were to make one wish to a genie, what would that be? What would that wish be? Or if they were to have a dream where they had achieved all of their goals, what would that dream be about? Just write down a bunch of answers until you feel like one clicks for the story or for the scene—whatever level you're looking at.

Then the goal in your self-editing is to thread that protagonist's goal through the whole story, or as much of it as you can. What that will do, hopefully, is give the story momentum to further avoid plodding or directionless observation as I've talked about in previous episodes. It will give the reader more to relate to or connect with in the protagonist, and very importantly, it will introduce the promise of something meaningful, impactful, and an invested win-loss moment later on in the story where the protagonist either achieves that goal or fails to. That, as much as anything else, is what gets readers to keep reading and finish the book.

Isla: Actually, you're talking about the genie reminded me of—in musical theater, there's this idea of an I Want song. When your protagonist is introduced, they almost always just cut... Obviously, musical theater is much more literal than a book, but they always come out and say exactly what their goal is. Reminded me of... So, ask yourself, if this book was a musical, what would your character's I Want song be?

Rebecca: I love that. Absolutely.

Isla: So, does the goal have to stay the same throughout the book? At what point or in what circumstance would it be okay to shift a goal? If it's okay at all?

Rebecca: I'm so glad you asked that. So, it's fine to use a chain of smaller goals if you need or want to, but I do suggest that they all stay in the same theme, or like a progressive list of goals, one chaining into the next towards whatever the climax goal is.
So, for example, perhaps the first goal for your protagonist—I'm going to go for a high fantasy setting here—is to win an archery contest. But then the contest gets cancelled because war is declared. So, the goal then becomes to get accepted into an elite regiment of archers in the army. Once that's achieved, then the goal is to show off and get promoted, then to survive the battle, and then to win the war, and then eventually to personally shoot the evil king on the other side.

That kind of progression where you can see, “all right, well, it reached this point, so now it's going on to this goal”—just chaining all the way up—but you can still see there's a connection between “I want to win an archery contest,” and “I want to shoot the evil king in the face.”

So, the second part of your question has a couple of very specific answers about when it's appropriate to do this. It is the right moment for the protagonist to change or shift or adjust one of their goals in one of four circumstances that I was able to brainstorm ahead of recording this.

So, the first opportunity for that change is when achieving that goal—or the option to have that goal—is taken off the table, like that archery contest getting canceled. That's outside of your protagonist's agency. They don't get to control that. So, it's taken off the table, which means that goal is no longer achievable. They need a new one.

Second opportunity: the goal is achieved, but it didn't satisfy them enough or as much as they wanted, or in doing so—in achieving it—a higher goal was introduced. So, let's say joining this elite guard of archers—these other people in this group still talk down on him because he has a low rank. So, he's achieved that one goal, but now it introduces another one, of: "Oh, well, I need a promotion so that I actually get the respect that I thought I was going to get."

Third: the protagonist has some sort of moment of revelation, disillusionment, or introspection, which shifts their mindset towards a higher, or more important, or more meaningful goal.
For example, we're talking about the same protagonist, realizing that just wanting to survive that battle or that war is still going to leave a lot of other people hurt or killed. Or worse if the other side wins and enslaves the protagonist's people. So, winning the whole war becomes the better goal than surviving the war.

Fourth and finally for when it's appropriate to shift from one goal to another: that moment can be where the protagonist needs to make the goal that they are chasing either more generalized and more vague in order to continue pursuing it, or make it a lot more specific and narrow in order to continue pursuing it. So, for the same protagonist, maybe that is narrowing down from “I want to win the war,” which is hard for one person to do, to “I want to shoot the evil king in his face because I don't think the war can continue without his leadership.”

Those are the four options that I've seen and personally used for when it's a good moment to shift from one goal for the protagonist to another.

Isla: Yeah, and I think shooting the evil king in the face is probably a more relatable goal—especially lately, maybe, perhaps—than winning the entire war. So, that makes sense.

Rebecca: Yep.

Isla: So, what can we do in scenes or chapters where the big overarching goal isn't really present or usable because the story got sidetracked? Like, the scene is a subplot, or you're doing a soft moment, like a break from the action or character development. Or is it just not, I mean...

Rebecca: I get what you're asking. I totally get what you're asking.

Isla: It's not doable to always be tying things to the global goal.

Rebecca: Yes, and this depends a lot on genre as well, because high-action stories are easier to keep that core goal just centered at all times, whereas softer genres like contemporary romance, definitely you need to back off that a little bit.

So, my suggestion here is: give your protagonist a very tangible one-scene goal which will meet an immediate need. If you can connect that—even obliquely—to that overarching goal, that's great, but sometimes other goals do need to come up, especially in those softer moments.

So, for example, let's say our hypothetical protagonist's overarching goal at this point in the story is to win the war. Well, in one of those specific scenes or chapters, that might look like a smaller one-scene goal of: he needs to get an audience with the general so he can tell him his idea. Or maybe he gets lost out on a scouting mission into enemy territory and the one-scene goal for that scene, that chapter, is survive. Just live through the storm and not die of starvation or thirst or whatever those stakes are in that moment.

And even if you can't tie it in—because both of those examples do kind of tie back up to I want to win the war—making your protagonist hungry with a goal of food, or thirsty with a goal of water, or alone with a goal of meeting up with a friend—any kind of connection, is going to really, really help with your momentum on that page for that duration.

Again, it's about introducing stakes of any kind and a win-loss scenario, either in that moment or down the road, complicating the events happening and making them much more interesting and keeping the story on a clear path toward something.
And again, it can be a glass of water. It can be making it to school on time.

As long as there is some goal, however small, it's going to keep your readers a lot more invested.
I remember when you were developmental editing Daughter of the Moon—in the first chapter, you were like, “Can something happen? Just anything? Like, Can she just want anything?”
I was like, “I guess.”

Rebecca: Your descriptions were great, but there wasn't a direction for it, because there was no goal sitting out there of, “Well, she needs to fully wake up,” or “She needs a glass of water.”
And having anything, however small, is really going to help, especially in the first chapter or the first half of the book.

Isla: Yeah, even if you're just getting to know characters.

Rebecca: Yes, yeah.

Isla: So, what are some common mistakes people make when writing in regard to their protagonist goals?

Rebecca: So, I've got a short list in my head for this one.

The goal is introduced too late , which I think was the case with yours—because your protagonist did have a great goal later on, but it took a while to come up or be established.

Second mistake would be the goal is never specific enough. And I usually see this with examples like I was talking about earlier, where the protagonist's goal is something like “I'm going to win the war,” or “I'm going to defeat evil.” And it's fine if that's the goal for a while, while the protagonist is still figuring out how they can achieve that. But by the climax, it really needs to be a little more specific. It still needs to narrow down to, “I want to defeat that one villain,” or “I want to get that specific position at my job”—rather than “I want to be successful.” So, narrowing it down, especially for the climax or just leading up to it, is a common mistake that I think people can easily fix if they're just aware of it.

Number three would be: the protagonist gets too distracted from whatever the core goal is that you established and ends up on this little side quest that has nothing to do with that goal path that you established. And the problem with that is that it makes the protagonist seem very inconsistent. Because if you establish that they want—let's say—the diamond, they want to go steal the diamond, that is their goal. And then they end up doing a bunch of stuff over on the side that has nothing to do with pursuing the diamond, it doesn't feel realistic to how that character has been set up to be expected to act. So, making sure that you stay on the path of whatever goal you set is definitely important.

Another common mistake—and this is probably the most common that I see—is that the goal doesn't impact their choices and their actions. So, if your goal is to, let's say, get promoted at work, you're going to make choices in how you interact with your co-workers. You're going to take certain actions about getting your work done really quickly, all with that goal of getting promoted in mind. And that applies to any story goal. If you know that the goal is, let's say, defeating the villain, then that needs to be at least like tickling the back of the protagonist's mind when they're choosing where to go, who to make friends with, how to prepare, training—all of this kind of stuff. And if you have a goal established, which is great on its own, but then that has nothing to do with how the protagonist gets there, that's a problem.

Another issue would be the goal is executed by secondary characters. So, you have a goal established—let's say, defeating the evil king, winning the war—and then a bunch of secondary characters—the best friend and the mentor and the young cousin or whatever—are the ones that actually achieve it. That's not going to serve the story as well as it could.

Very much connected to that, a common mistake that I've seen—or somewhat common—is that the goal comes from secondary characters. And this is often a mentor character who says, “Hey, you need to go defeat the evil king.” That's not going to serve the story or your readers as well as if that goal comes from inside the protagonist in any kind of way. So, when it feels more like the protagonist is a tool in someone else's hand who actually has the goal, that's going to make the story feel like perhaps this person who actually holds the goal and gave it to the protagonist should be the protagonist.

I got a couple more here, so I'll bash through them as quickly as I can:

If the goal costs nothing to achieve, then it's a weak goal and you should look for something that perhaps requires sacrifice—be that staying up late or the time it takes to walk from one room to another to get a glass of water. If there's no cost to it at all, then you probably need to strengthen that.

And then lastly—obviously it's an issue if you don't have any goals for your protagonist—but it's also an issue if you have too many. And this one's rare, but I have seen it in some of the work that I've edited.
And the problem with your protagonist having too many goals is you then have too many paths, all trying to go parallel at the same time. And the reader is going to have a harder time getting invested in one or the other because you have a bunch of different goals, and trying to keep them all pointed in the same direction on that same path is going to be challenging.
So, if your protagonist has five different goals that they are chasing through all of the different scenes, then you kind of need to decide which one is most important.
That is different from having a chain of goals, where one is achieved and then the next starts, or one is taken off the table and the next starts. So, a chain is fine, but having multiple going across the whole story can be distracting and polluting the storyline.

Isla: Gotcha. So, what would you say is the distinction between the side quest thing you were talking about—where the arc they go on has nothing to do with their end goal—and the sort of mini goal or chain of goals? For instance, say you want to kill the king—that's your end goal—and then your friend gets kidnapped or whatever. And then there's sort of an arc of having to save your friend from whoever kidnapped them. Would you consider that too divergent? Or what would you say the distinction between those two ideas is?

Rebecca: That's a great question.
So, what I would say there is: if you want to err on the side of caution, make it so that the friend who gets kidnapped is in some way important to defeating the king. And that will just keep everything on the path.

If you don't want to go that direction, then what you can do is make it clear that the protagonist is choosing between defeating the king or saving their friend in that moment. And because they choose to go off of their goal path—because they choose to save the friend—have them pay a price for it. Have them miss an opportunity to assassinate the king weeks earlier than otherwise because they went to save their friend.

If you can make it connected either through the goal or through a cost for abandoning that goal, that's going to keep it all on the same path. And when your protagonist gets back from saving their friend who got kidnapped and sees that there was a cost, that brings everything right back into that goal and the readers will still be locked in.

Isla: Yeah, it will also raise the stakes.

Rebecca: Yes, absolutely.

Isla: Yeah, because you're like, “Well, I mean, damn, now I've lost my opportunity.
So I really have to work for it now.”

Rebecca: And perhaps, you know, seeing how the friend was treated by its kidnappers is going to up the stakes in that person and make them realize, “No, I really need to go kill the king after seeing what happened.” So, there's lots of ways that you can tie just about anything you want to back into that path, But knowing what the path is and what the goal is is how you're able to do so.

Isla: Right. Yeah, I'm a big fan of third act, like, random arcs.
So that's very—that's actually very helpful for me. Thank you.

All right. So how does the inciting incident that kicks off the whole book need to connect to the main goal, if it needs to connect to it at all? And if it does need to be connected, do we need to figure out the global climax, inciting incident, or the goal first?

Rebecca: So, the inciting incident for the book should be connected in some way to the eventual climax down the road, regardless of the protagonist goal. And we've talked about this in some earlier episodes—Agnes and I—talking about how those sort of need to connect thematically.
So, from that standpoint, yes: whatever goal gets the protagonist to the action of the climax should in some small way at least appear in the inciting incident.

However, this can be in the form of that sort of chain of goals that I was talking about, where the goal that they have in the climax—shoot the king in the face—is not the same as, you know, the inciting incident of entering an archery contest, but you can see a connection between them.

You can also use a primary and a subplot to do this—but with just, you know, two or three tops.
Very few romances, for example, have an opening inciting incident goal of I want to fall in love.
In fact, it's a pretty common trope that I personally enjoy of: the story opening with both protagonists going, “Oh, I'm never going to fall in love. That's terrible. I never want to do that.”

So, what you need to have there is: you have a primary plot of the romance, and then you have a subplot of “I want a promotion,” or “I want to get new credentials for my work,” or “I want to move back to my hometown.”
And what you do is you use the subplot goals of “I want to do XYZ, I want to achieve XYZ,” as your opening momentum goals, and then eventually through that romance arc, they have morphed into a situation where you have that primary goal of “I want this person, and their happily ever after with me,” versus the goals that they had at the beginning. And often there's a trade-off there. Often you have to either give up the promotion to move in with your happily ever after, or something like that. So, using a primary and a subplot that are moving in the same direction together, but have a different set of stakes, I suppose, can help you introduce goals before your genre goals start coming in, like in romance.

That being said—and the answer to the last part of your question there—if you do want all three of those aspects—so the climax, inciting incident, and goal—to be connected, then I personally recommend figuring them out in that order. I suggest figuring out the climax first, because that's where everything needs to come together in the most satisfying way possible. And figuring out or self-editing the inciting incident after that can be very helpful in reverse-engineering that from where you know you want it to go, and then you can figure out where it needs to start. And then layering in the protagonist goals comes last, as that's a much more subtle and sort of between-the-lines element for the action that you've already, hopefully, gotten working pretty well between the climax and inciting incident.

Isla: So, you've mentioned the connection between the protagonist goal and story momentum. Is the momentum the same thing as pacing?

Rebecca: Sort of.
Pacing is largely how slow or fast a scene or chapter feels, and how you balance those ups and downs—like we talked about in episode 13. It’s a lot of the fast and slow, up and down, exciting and ponderous.

Momentum is more about keeping the story driving forward along a specific road, regardless of the speed at which it is driving in that chapter.

Both are very much important to the reader experience—particularly them wanting to keep reading through to the end of the story. But momentum is more about keeping things enticing that reader forward than it is about balancing adrenaline or breathing room.

Isla: I think that's a lesson that a lot of authors need to learn, honestly.
Because I've read so many books lately that are just action, action, action, action.
And like—it moves the story forward technically—but it's just like... I mean, all right.

Rebecca: Yeah, they both have purpose, but they’re not interchangeable.

Isla: Yeah, yeah.

So, what if my protagonist doesn’t really even know what the global goal is until the climax?

Rebecca: They still need a driving goal to get them to the climax.
Twisting what’s at stake or what’s on the table to be won or lost in the climax is a very fun choice. I especially love seeing that in fantasy or action—when they get to the climax and it’s not what they expected. But you still need the protagonist to be chasing something solid to even get them into that situation where you twist things.
So, whatever the protagonist was chasing up to that point still needs to be won or lost, in addition to whatever the global goal is that only gets recognized or explained in the climax.

Isla: All right. So, does the goal need to be achieved by the climax though? Is it okay if they never achieve their goal?

Rebecca: It doesn’t need to be achieved in the climax, and it’s fine if they don’t win whatever the goal was that they were trying to. But I do suggest using something else to balance against it if you're going to have them lose in the climax. I talked about this a little bit in an earlier episode in the series, but a bittersweet climax can be a great choice.
On this specific topic with goal and momentum, if the protagonist ends up failing in their goal and losing whatever it is that they wanted or that was at stake in that, then I suggest letting them win in some other meaningful way—perhaps fulfilling a need that they may or may not have been aware of. So, win or lose the want, win the need—or vice versa.
Unless of course you are writing a cautionary story, which is a minority, but people do write those, in which case it is pretty much necessary that the protagonist lose their goal to show that it is a cautionary story.

Isla: Yeah, I’m a fan of not giving my characters what they want at the end of the book.

Rebecca: But you balance it out. You have some positives to keep things balanced so it’s not just, “Oh, that was a bummer,” and that’s exactly the goal.

Isla: Yeah, I certainly hope so. Yes. All right, well I know we need to wrap up, but I do want to ask one last question: Do we need to have an internal goal and external goal? Is it important that they achieve both?

Rebecca: Yeah, so this is very much connected to what I was talking about with a want and a need. So, the short answer to your question is no. One or the other at any given moment is totally fine.

The longer answer is you can use both to balance that bittersweet mix. And you can use that to have that primary and subplot like I was talking about with a romance. It's kind of up to the specific author and what kind of story they want to write.

For one example, if the primary external goal is super strong like in an action fantasy, then avoiding having others in the mix like a secondary internal might really help keep the story and the reader super laser focused on that external goal and whether or not it's achieved.

As a counter example, if you are worried that the primary internal goal you are using in, let's say, a maturation plot, is boring, then adding external goals to bolster it can really help with keeping interest up and things moving forward to avoid most of the story happening inside the character's head, which is not the most interesting to read. So, it's very much up to you and the situation.

Isla: All right. Well, thank you so much. This has been great.

Rebecca: Absolutely. I really, really appreciate you stepping in to guest host on the show. And next week, our next guest host and I will go over the importance of both knowing and using the right stakes for your story.

For now, I would really like to thank everyone following along with this series. We’d really appreciate it if you can help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Authors' Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series.

I also highly encourage you all to check out Isla’s awesome fantasy books at IslaElrick.com and follow them on social media as well under author Isla Elrick.

Again, thank you so much for hosting.

Isla: Thank you for having me on.

Rebecca: Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast.

I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more or visit my website linked in the description to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Checking Your Narrative Style Choices: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 15

Tue, 15 Apr 2025 22:13:34 GMT

Narrative Style Choices: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript...

When trying out re-writing a scene to change an aspect of your narrative style choices, I forgot to clarify that I suggest doing so NOT in your working manuscript! Copy and paste out the chapter into a separate document, try re-writing it there, compare the two, and make your decision for the rest of the book from that. Whether or not you decide to change your tense, person, or POV across the whole book, always make sure to save an archive copy of the manuscript first in case you change your mind later or want to revert to old wording!

Episode 15 Overview:

Checking Your Narrative Style Choices

“Is my tense, person, POV, and POV distance all the right choices for this story and how I want to tell it? Have I considered other options, and how might I decide if I want to change one of those aspects?”

Curious about first person point of view and third person point of view? Want to know how to edit your book yourself or achieve true writer improvement? In this full-length episode of 52-Week Story Savvy, developmental editor Rebecca Hartwell and aspiring fantasy author Agnes Wolfe [authorsalcove.com] dive deep into self-editing your narrative style.

This isn’t just a grammar lesson—this is about storytelling strategy. Rebecca explores the artistic and structural choices authors face when choosing tense, POV, and narrative depth during the book revision process. They examine why consistency matters, how genre influences expectations, and when it's okay to break the rules. You'll also get advice on managing multiple POVs, avoiding head-hopping, and how to fix these issues even after you've written your full draft.

In This Episode:

~Choosing between first, second, and third person narration

~Understanding narrative depth: omniscient/distant vs close POV

~Tense choices (past vs present vs future!) and when to use them

~Tools for multi-POV balance, including the “Fibonacci method”

~How to make POV choices that serve both plot and reader connection

~Tips for revising POV/tense in later drafts (without panic!)

Whether you’re outlining your story or revising your final draft, this episode will help you shape a narrative voice that resonates with your readers and elevates your craft.

Recommended Resources:

Developmental Editing Services

Authors’ Alcove Membership Site – [http://authorsalcove.com]

Book Giveaway – [http://authorsalcove.org]

See you next week for episode 16: Momentum Through Protagonist Goal

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 15 Transcript:

Self-Editing Using Your Genre

Rebecca: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 15 of the weekly Story Savvy series where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to.

We have covered a bunch of different topics in this series so far, including last week's episode on using blurbs as a self-editing tool. Today we are going to go over some overarching elements like person, tense, and POV, point of view.

By the end of this episode, you will hopefully understand what your options are around these aspects and feel confident deciding which are the best for your story and making any changes around those that are needed. Joining me today to ask all of those questions is my friend and co-host Agnes Wolfe. Welcome.

So, what exactly is narrative style? Because I think that I think of like just point of view, is that what it is?

Rebecca: That is part of what it is. So, the narrative style is—so—POV, so whose perspective the story is being told through, it is your person choice and that would be a first-person narration second person or third person. It is tense, so whether you're telling the story in past tense, present tense, or future tense. It is also the depth of the POV, so that would be measurements like if you're writing omniscient or distant POV or close POV, so how closely you are seeing the story through your POV character's point of view at any given point.

Agnes: So, is that the same as a framing device like you mentioned in your edit letter to me?

Rebecca: It can be to some degree, but it's not directly the same thing. The framing device is more when a part of the story is used to add context to why the majority of the story is being told. This is often one character in the book trying to give advice to another, like in ‘The Name of the Rose,’ or like Shaharazad using a thousand and one stories that this character knows to keep the king from killing her in ‘Arabian Nights,’ and she is the framing device to present these other stories to the reader. Sort of “a story within a story” is one way to look at framing device.

How this connects to narrative style is that they need to be aligned in a logical way. For example, if you are using a clear framing device of someone talking about the events of that character's personal past, then you kind of need to tell that bulk of the story in past tense, but you could tell the framing scenes, so the part of the book where you're showing the reader this character telling these stories, in past or present tense.

Same with the person choice. If the storyteller in the framing device is also the protagonist of the main story, you probably need to write that story in first person so that that storyteller's voice is the one that is telling this story from that framing device. Or at a stretch, maybe second person, but second person is really rare and we'll get more into that later.

However, if the storyteller character, the framing device, isn't in the stories being told, like Shaharazad is, then you probably need to write those stories in third person because she is not talking about herself.

Agnes: So, what's the main priority when checking this particular thing in our own book? What other things are we looking at?

Rebecca: Primarily consistency. There are very few totally wrong choices apart from being all over the place with these aspects. So, making sure that you are in one set tense, POV, and person throughout is step number one. If you do nothing else, please aim for consistency.

Beyond that, you're looking at the genre viability of your choices. So, certain genres are going to have more common expectations for person, tense, and POV.

And then lastly, for the moment, we are looking at the effectiveness and impact that our style choices are having on the story being told. The same story is going to read very differently and come across very differently and have a very different presence in the world, depending on what tense and person and POV it is being told through. And that's one of the things that we're looking at.

Agnes: So, I know for myself, like I had gone, I had actually initially thought I was going to do a first person point of view from Amelia, but I realized that that was too limiting for what I wanted to write.

So, what are some of the pros and cons of different person choices like first person or third person? And how should we be checking to make sure we're making the right choice for ourselves?

Rebecca: First off, never assume that, you know, you are consistent here. I'm going to keep reiterating this. Please make sure that you are consistent across the board, especially if you do edits. But to actually answer your question, making the right person choice can come down to a myriad of things.

First of all, what comes naturally? Especially as a first-time author, this should not be something that you're obsessing over. If you naturally write in third person, write in third person. If you naturally write in first person, write in first person. After your first book, you can start experimenting, you can try different things. But what comes naturally is going to be a priority as a very new author, because getting that consistency is step one in learning the rules before you start breaking them.

The next consideration there might be your cast size. So how many different characters, and particularly POV characters, you have in the story. If you want to write in first person, for example, it makes a lot of sense to have one POV character. And like you were just saying with your own story, because you knew you needed to have less limitations than that, if you needed to have more than one perspective, switching to third person was a great choice. And these are not hard and fast rules. I have seen books that have multiple first-person POVs, but they have to be done very, very well. It is harder to do well.

Genre is obviously a consideration, like I mentioned. Look and see what books in your genre are doing as far as person goes. Make a note. Just do a tally. First, second, and third. Second is probably going to be a zero. There are almost no books written in second person for a good reason. It is very discombobulating. You can if you really want to, but I'd suggest testing it on a short story first. But first and third are 99% of the ‘persons’ out there, so I suggest sticking to one of those.

Another consideration is how distant or immersive you want your storytelling to be. One of the clearest ways to explain this is just by looking at traumatic events in stories. If you want to traumatize your readers, then first person is a better choice because that person choice is going to have your reader in the body of the person that the bad things are happening to. It is going to have them far more invested and set in that experience than third person where you are looking at these characters from the outside.

On the other side of that, if you want to write about difficult topics, but you want to do so in a healing way that isn't designed to traumatize your readers, or trigger them, or whatever you want to avoid, then making the choice to write in third person can really help in letting you tell these stories and present these difficult topics in a way that your readers will be able to consume without being hurt. Or without being disadvantaged and perhaps not wanting to finish the book because it is too close to them or their experiences.

The last consideration that I want to mention here is kind of what I touched on earlier of how traditional third person perspective is. Most stories throughout history were told in third person. It was about people outside of oneself.

First person is more of a modern choice. It's definitely—and in my spaces of paranormal romance, romantic fantasy, that kind of stuff—first person just has a more modern feel because it is a more modern way of telling stories.

And then second person is the avant-garde choice. That is, you are doing art, you are trying to be weird, you want to make people uncomfortable, and being aware of those sort, of societally, culturally understood tones of the three choices is also a consideration in deciding which is best for you and your book.

Agnes: So, one of the things that I found very interesting about a book I recently read, and it was by A.G. Howard, I think it's called… you know, I'm not sure. I've read so many of hers, but I can't remember the title of it. But it's her Phantom of the Opera version. And one thing that she did was she did first person point of view from her protagonist, and then she did third person point of view from the other character. I don't want to say which he falls on that particular spectrum. But—

Rebecca: Yeah, you absolutely can play with that. And it doesn’t have to be a split like that. For example, in my own work, I use first person perspective only for when people are seeing visions. But again, consistency matters. So, I had to go through and make sure that okay, if it's not a vision, it's only in third person and vice versa.

So, you can make interesting choices like that. It's definitely not standard. But yeah, it's definitely one of the things that you can play with. And I'm glad you brought that up.

Agnes: And so, from what I'm hearing, consistency, you just got to make sure that when whose head you're in is what perspective you’re in and all of that. So, what should we know about like past, present, future options in a self-editing stage? Do people use future? I can't think of a book that uses future.

Rebecca: I personally have never read one, but it is an option. You could tell this story. In fact, at some point, just for fun, I want to try writing a future tense second person short story just to see how weird it would be!

But anyway, so a lot of the considerations around your tense choice are the same as around your person choice.

-What comes naturally, especially as a first-time author.

-Understanding what is more commonly paired together than other combinations. For example, present tense is much more acceptable in first person than in third. So if you know for a fact that you're writing in third person, writing in present tense is a riskier choice than if you're writing in first person.

-Genre. Again, do a tally, see what people are saying about it, see what your readers are most likely to connect with. This one very much ties back into that framing device connection that we were talking about and making sure that whatever tense you're writing in makes sense with the framing device and isn't going to really, really throw people off.

-Again, how distant or immersive you want it to be. Third person has—sorry, we're talking about tense now—past tense gives a little bit more distance because this is something that has already happened and just the use of past tense language can give it just a thin layer of knowing, “all right, the conclusion has already happened in some subconscious sense, so I've got a little bit more comfort about how this is going to turn out.” Whereas present tense—partly because it is less common and partly because it's just inherent in the storytelling—can feel much more in the moment and like things are undecided and you don't know which direction things are going to go.

-And then lastly, again, traditional, modern, or “out there.” So past tense—yeah, that's what we're talking about now—past tense is the traditional. Most mythologies are told like that, most early novels are told like that. Present tense is the modern one, the one that feels kind of edgy and a little bit more now. And then future tense, like you said, is very rare and if you were to write in that it would throw people for a loop, so it's definitely the "I'm going to be weird and avant-garde and artistic" option.

Agnes: Which I have to admit, I tend to like the really weird, like I love the people who are just a little bit unhinged when they write. Those—

Rebecca: That came up a couple episodes ago, yeah.

Agnes: I like people who are just a little unhinged. I wish that I was a little bit more unhinged like that, but like I couldn't pull it off.

But I know like one of the things that I struggled with when I was writing is I actually just had decided originally I was going to write in present tense, but I realized as a writer I can't do it.

Because like I would start and then I would switch tenses. I would be—I would get into the thing and then it was like I would switch tenses and I'm like I just can't do it because I know that I will flip-flop and I won't stay consistent. And that goes back to that consistency thing.

Rebecca: Yeah, and that's a totally valid reason to make a style choice. It doesn't have to be deeper than that.

Agnes: So how can we tell how deep our point of view style is and if it's right for our book? Like I know knowing our audience—I feel like I keep saying that like you keep pointing back to knowing our audience.

I think with middle grade, because middle grade is so much different than other fantasies in that there's things you can get away with and there's also things that you should not—you should stay away from. But so like, do you mind just expounding on that?

Rebecca: Sure. So how you tell what depth you are already writing—because we're assuming that you're self-editing at this stage—there are some definitions for the different depths that I'll touch on today—and I'm not going to cover all of them but I'm going to touch on the three most common that I see.

So, the most distant is omniscient and that is very much from the perspective of, you know, God up in the clouds just looking down and—or like a movie. If a movie doesn't have sort of internal thoughts, or you're never seeing through the protagonist—most movies are omniscient where the POV is outside of any of the characters that exist on the stage, and that is very, very distant. Everything is at arm's length. The limitations on that and why it's very—I will say very—it is less common than it used to be, and it is frequently frowned on nowadays in particularly the fantasy spaces, is you cannot show thoughts in omniscient for the most part. All of these rules are very loose rules. You can if you want to, but if you're a new author, new writer, I recommend not doing so.

Sort of the middle ground would be just a distant POV where—and I hope you don't mind me saying this—I think that's where your writing was when I was doing the editing on your book, where you do have one character that you are in their POV for any given scene. So, it is through their eyes or their emotions that you're viewing it, but you're not doing terribly much with that. You're not really getting into their thoughts or their emotions that often and that's sort of this middle ground and that's a totally valid choice.

The most common that I see in successful works, and particularly in the fantasy genre, is close POV, and that's where the descriptions in any given chapter are very much like the narration is coming from within that person in every sense. You are smelling the smells that they are smelling and it's connecting to that character's memories. You are moving in the way that that character moves. You are hearing their internal dialogue and their thoughts, and all of this kind of stuff, and you are very much in their experience.

And a lot of the time when I'm helping authors that I'm working with fix up, or clarify, or strengthen their POV distance it’s often trying to help them get into that closer or tighter POV distance.

So, moving on from the definitions. So that's how you can decide what you already have in place here. I think that there is a more specific list of considerations for deciding whether or not it's the right choice than with the other ones.

First and foremost is genre. Absolutely. The others—like, genre is a consideration—for this one genre dictates what you should be doing. For example, if you're writing epic high fantasy with many, many POVs—for example Game of Thrones or something like that—omniscient might be the right choice for you because that is going to give you a lot more space.

Whereas in paranormal romance or romantic fantasy, fantasy romance—close is pretty much a mandate of the genre. You kind of have to be writing in close distance POV for it to connect with the readers of that genre and those subgenres.

How distant or immersive is the second biggest consideration here, which we've touched on with the others. But more specifically here, with how much of the story value is internal or external. For example, if you are wanting to present themes of self-discovery or disillusionment or romance—or anything like that that is so internal to the main character—you probably need a relatively close POV to really deliver that to your readers.

However, in a book where it's just, you know, tons of mystery and intrigue and action that is pulling things forward like James Bond, then a more distant POV is not only much more acceptable but possibly the right choice, a good idea for it.

And then lastly for specifically this POV distance: how many POVs you want to present in the story is worth considering—which I touched on with the first one, but I'll go into depth here.

It's not a straight formula. It would be very convenient if it was, but it isn't. For example, for a certain kind of writer, writing a certain kind of book, with five POV protagonists, let's say, then using a close POV might be the right choice to help them quickly establish which POV each scene is in and to use that large cast to its fullest potential to get that diversity of internal plot fully into the mix.

However, for a different writer and a different book, a fully distant omniscient POV might be the right choice for following five different POV protagonists, as that will allow the reader to really consume the story like it's a movie—so a fully shown experience without getting bogged down or confused by that many internal told aspects and storylines.

Agnes: So, I know in my own work—and I didn't prepare you for this question—so I know in my own work that I had personally like—I know that I want to get more into my character's heads. So, I want to get it more close because I want it to be a little bit more personal. So like, I had started off with more distant and I realized I wanted to work towards more close.

Well, what about the opposite person? When would they realize okay, I am doing close but maybe I need to back up a little bit? When would they might feel that? Like for me like I knew I want to get closer because I want more feeling and I want my characters to be a little bit more likable and all of that. When would you want to back away?

Rebecca: I think that assessing what the value of your story is and if you're doing too much plotting can definitely be two of the major, sort of, markers for this.

So in the first one—I love using James Bond as an example because it's an outlier from a lot of the genre work that I work on—in his movies, his books, whatever, the value of the story is not him going on some internal journey to become a better person or, you know, become disillusioned with stuff. And there's slight elements of that. But the value of those stories is action. The value of those stories is shooting the bad guys and flirting with the pretty ladies and traveling to exotic locations. None of those are internal. None of those happen inside James Bond's head or heart or soul.

So if you're looking at your story and you're like, "All right, I'm writing a thriller," or "I'm writing a police procedural mystery" or a horror or something where the value is almost entirely outside of the protagonist—but they are still a part of that story—then that might be a good clue to back off that distance of your POV and let those aspects that the story is actually about have more space to be what they are and be shown without that muddling and that middleman of that internal work.

On the second point that I made there—I have read a couple of books and edited a couple of books where the POV was too close because the author was trying to do too much with it. And what it ended up being was instead of things happening, it was just so much internal thought and so much of the character thinking back and having flashbacks and waffling about their emotions.

And the problem there is that readers only care about that if they're given a reason to. And the reasons are almost always action. It's almost always something unexpected happening or forcing the protagonist to take an action or a revelation that makes the protagonist need to go do something. And none of those come from inside—or at least they shouldn't—in good work, for the most part. Literary is a bit of an exception.

So, in those cases, I would suggest backing off simply so that the author doesn't have the option to get bogged down in the ways that they are naturally prone to do.

If you are opening a book with pages or chapters of mostly thoughts and memories and personality building and considerations, and anything that's inside and not happening, then that can also be a great indicator of—"hey, I need to back off so that I am taking all of this fluff and shoe leather and purple prose and overwriting out just by saying I don't get to show thoughts. I don't get to show what is happening in their head. I don't get to tell the reader what is happening in their head. I don't get to tell the emotions—I have to show.”

So, a lot of that like over telling and rather than showing can be another great indicator and good reason to back that POV off.

Agnes: So the next question I'm going to ask is about how many point of views, and just to give context is like I know with my own I had looked it up because I was debating on going with one or two originally because I had started off with one and then I decided to go to two, but then—you know my story of how I ended up with a third.

And I had found that middle grade usually does one or two, so I knew I was taking a risky choice with the third, which is why I actually—I went back and forth whether I was going to go through another round of edits. I had done like one and a half edits before I sent it to you, but like I was like “do I change this?”

And my husband was like, “No, let's hear what she has to say,” and I'm so glad I did it that way because you helped me kind of refine—like I do actually—I am going to have a total of three point of views, but the third one is only in very select circumstances.

So, I know that's a long way to ask—so are there guidelines surrounding how many point of views and how much does it—does our audience dictate that?

Rebecca: Yes and no to the first question. There's no one right answer for any genre that I can think of off the top of my head, but not all choices are acceptable in all genres.

For example, like I was talking about, romantic fantasy kind of has to be one or two. You can kind of get away with three? But stories like a classic, you know, crime noir has to have one. You really only ever see one perspective in those.

But you can get away with more—but I'm just—I'm reiterating myself at that point, so moving on.

In first person, for example, one POV is the strongest standard, which I definitely mentioned earlier. So, what your person choices are can dictate how many POVs you get to get away with.

Going back to genre—in romance, and particularly paranormal romance or romantic fantasy—dual POV is at least as common as one POV these days, from what I've been seeing. And that's a great choice because then you get both sides of this romantic connection.

If there are going to be multiple POVs and it isn't a romance, then the protagonist and villain are often the two options that I see for that, where you use the villain as a far less common, less frequent POV to show the reader things that you're not ready for the protagonist to know.

And this is a great and authentic way to build some of that mystery, that intrigue of—oh no, I now know that the villain is building a giant world-destroying laser, but the protagonist doesn't know that yet and I can't tell them.

So, it's also—it's not just deciding how many POVs you have in a story but which ones are important. And that was part of the conversation that you and I had, was I very much agreed that your third POV had a couple of things that neither of your protagonists were in a position to know—they weren't in the room, they weren't in the city at the time—but it was important for the reader to know them, which heavily justified that third POV existing to show that stuff and fill in background information and create that intrigue.

So, the next consideration there that I want to mention is fantasy, which is what we're mostly talking about here, is by far the most accepting of many POVs. But do be wary of going overboard, and I strongly recommend centering one protagonist and their storyline more than the others. Ideally, this would be whichever protagonist that you are doing a POV on will be the strongest when these storylines all merge, or theoretically if they were all to do so.

One of the issues that I've seen in some of the large-cast—so, four-plus POV protagonists—fantasy that I've edited is I'm never sure which character I'm actually investing in because I'm not going to invest fully emotionally in four characters in one book. That's just not going to happen.

So having one—and I've seen this done very well—where—it's usually the first one that's presented, and it's usually one that—you mentioned Save the Cat, I think it was in the last episode—that's a great indicator. Like “hey, this person is, you know, doing—they're saving the cat, metaphorically. So I'm going to invest in them, and these other storylines I'm going to then trust are all building into that primary storyline, even if each of those other storylines has their own sort of protagonists.” Just a consideration there. It's not my favorite, but I have seen it done well with many, many protagonists.

When in doubt, try to reduce the number of POVs you have. And if you are writing dual POV, try to keep a roughly even balance between the two in how many scenes each of those two get, how often they get those scenes, and, if there's an imbalance—that the character who is the stronger of the two protagonists—who your reader is more likely to connect with—has the majority.

And a lot of the genres that I work in, you know your audience is mostly going to be female, so centering your female main character over the male main character tends to make a lot of sense as far as divvying up those POV opportunities.

Agnes: So one of the things that I would love for you to expound on that I did not put in the question—I feel like I'm adding a lot of questions this week—one of the things that I tried to do at first because I thought I had to do it, and it actually was a detriment to my story, was I felt like I had to keep all three of my POV characters equal, and you helped me realize no, that third one does not need to.

But now that I am going to have two, my two main characters, they are going to be both the protagonists. And I realized—because I realized, you know, that's actually where my audience that I am targeting is used to having like, you know, Fablehaven, you know, different ones.

And I realized that I also wanted to not just target just females, I wanted to target both. So how do we know when there can be an imbalance, and when there needs to be a balance?

Rebecca: I think your use of the word ‘protagonists’ there kind of answers your own question. If you have two or more protagonists, then I would suggest keeping them as close to balance as you can.

However, if you're using a secondary character or a villain as an additional POV, it is more sort of generally acceptable for them to have a much smaller role.

I have seen a theory that I haven't actually tested that much, but it was interesting: You can also try balancing your POVs like a Fibonacci sequence. So, if you can picture that sort of seashell shape that starts large and gets proportionally smaller as it spirals down in, you can try balancing your POVs like that—where your primary protagonist, if you have dual POV, like in your book, Amelia is going to have that first part of the Fibonacci sequence. She's going to have that large of a chunk. And then your secondary is going to have that next decreasing amount—that's going to be Julian—and then that third amount, all by these nice—what’s the word I’m looking for? Balanced and proportional percentages—I guess that’ll work—you go from important down to least important in these. They're not equal, but it's also not like you're writing a whole book with one scene in a different POV—which I've actually done—but I was not a very good writer then. Or at least I didn’t know the rules around this, and I had one scene that needed to come from a third perspective, and I couldn’t find a way around it.

So, if you need to do exceptions like that, you can, but make sure that the reader is never going to have any question of, “Oh, that wasn’t necessary. They could have just told it from the protagonist’s point of view. Why did they bring in this third one?”

As long as those rules and those rough percentages are given some thought to, you should be fine.

Agnes: So, I do know that if we're in one scene, we do need to keep the same point of view. Otherwise, it's head-hopping. How consistent should we be as far as chapters? Are there rules surrounding that or anything like that?

Rebecca: Yeah. So, the short answer is just staying consistent in a POV by scene is fine, but there are more things to consider around this.

First of all, if you are going to have multiple POVs in a chapter, you must use scene breaks between the POVs. So, where that POV changes from one to another, you have to use a scene break there.

And the standard formatting for that is three asterisks, center-aligned on their own line. But pretty much anything—like hash, pound signs, whatever you want to do—as a scene break to make it clear something is changing, something is shifting, so the reader will be mentally prepared to step into a new POV on the other side of that break.

Another consideration is, I suggest that you avoid shifting POVs with a scene or chapter break in the middle of things—so in the middle of action. In those moments, the reader is most locked in, and they’re going to be locked into whatever POV was building up to those important moments. And if you try to do a POV shift there, especially if you try to do this often, it's going to feel like what we talked about—I think it was the last episode, maybe the one before—where you don’t want to do too many chapter breaks on those cliffhangers, because it can feel inauthentic. It can feel like you're trying to manipulate the reader in a way that might not feel great to them. So yeah, where the reader's invested in what's happening, you don't generally want to do a POV shift.

The exception can be the climax. If your thing that's happening is, you know, chapters long at that high point in the climax, it is far more acceptable to go back and forth or hit a bunch of different POVs to all show this biggest event of the whole book from different perspectives.

The next consideration I wanted to touch on here is if you are going to do POV scene breaks anywhere—so multiple POVs within a chapter broken by scene breaks—make sure that you have enough of these throughout, and one early in the book enough, that it becomes an established pattern of that book rather than a one-off outlier. As that outlier is more likely to feel jarring to the reader and come across as perhaps amateur as a writer.

The last point I’m going to make here is when the POV isn’t consistent within a scene or a chapter or anything, and there isn’t a marker—there isn’t a dividing line—that’s often called head-hopping, which I’m guessing most of our listeners have heard at least in passing if they’re getting into writing, if they’re getting into authorship and self-editing.

Head-hopping is where it feels to the reader consuming the story like they are hopping from being inside one character’s head into someone else’s and seeing through one person’s eyes and then without warning, without—what’s the word I’m looking for—like handling that transition—they’re seeing it through someone else’s eyes and it can take them a while to figure out whose and why. And it can just be very jarring and change the experience of that story.

This is one of the most common issues that I see in all of the new authors I have ever edited for—it’s head-hopping. So, this is definitely something to check on your own—if you're making a short list of things from this series to do, this should be on your short list of making sure that you're not head-hopping—but it's hard to see in your own work, especially if you're a new author. So I recommend if you think you have any issues around this, mentioning that to your alpha readers or your beta readers or your editors or whoever is giving it a look and just mentioning, "Hey, I need a little extra help with this—can you flag it for me please?"

Agnes: So, I know like when I was editing my own work, and I had started with first person and then I changed to third person, I was only like, you know, a couple chapters in—and plus I think all of those chapters got deleted and are not in the final thing so it didn’t really matter.

And then when I went from—I was like, I want to make it active so I’m going to do present—and I realized that I’m just not capable of doing that. And so, like, it was again only like three or four chapters before I realized, “okay this is not going to work because I can’t stay in present tense.”

What if you get to the end of your work and you realize, “oh, I want to change the point of view” or “I want to change the tense” or any of these other things. That’s a lot of work. What are your thoughts on that?

Rebecca: First of all, I want to acknowledge that yes—that is a lot of work and a very daunting prospect if you come to that realization.

So, what I recommend for folks who are thinking that maybe they made the wrong choices and they need to go back and change that—test it by rewriting just the first chapter first. Before you even commit to it or decide for sure you want to do it, just try rewriting your first chapter—maybe your favorite chapter from your climax—just try rewriting those into what you think is going to be the right choice.

And maybe experiment. Try it in second person, try it in future tense, try it in something weird, just to get a sense for how that would change how that scene comes across. And that can help you measure whether or not you want to go ahead with doing all of it.

My second piece of advice here is do only one layer of those changes at a time. So, let's say you drafted the book in first person, present tense because that was the vogue thing the week you started writing it and that was the last book you read and you're like, “Yeah, I'm going to do it!” And then you get to the end, and you decide, “No, I want to do third person past tense because that’s more commonly acceptable,” or whatever.

I suggest that you don't try to fix both at the same time. And if you want to change who the POV protagonist is at the same time—definitely don’t do all three. Do one at a time. First go through and edit whatever you think is going to be biggest. So if you're changing all three aspects—let's say, let's add in you also want to make it a closer POV. We'll do all four layers here.

My recommendation is that you first change who the POV is—so whose eyes you're seeing it through—and you do that beginning to end. And then you go back, and you just get deeper into their head. You zoom that POV in to be a much closer, tighter POV and you do that beginning to end. And then you just do the tense. And then you just do the person. Because if you're trying to do all of these, you're just trying to hold too many different filters in your mind and you're going to get a cleaner result if you just do it one layer at a time.

Having said that—use outside eyes to check that you got it right. Because this is massive, and it's going to be really hard to catch your changes because your brain wrote it in first person, for example. So, when your brain reads it in first person, it's going to have a harder time flagging it as wrong because it consumed it as first person so many times already. Outside perspectives—be that alpha readers, beta readers, editors—absolutely vital in doing this.

And then the last piece of advice that I'll give on this particular topic is: you can possibly try the trick of reading a book backwards paragraph by paragraph, starting at the last one, to help check these changes without the part of your brain that wrote it the first way the first time getting in the way nearly as much.

Agnes: So, I do know we need to wrap up, but I do want to ask one last question.

What are some things we should consider when checking that we are using the right POV—as in, telling the story or a specific scene through the right character's perspective?

Rebecca: We've touched on this here and there throughout the series leading up to this point, but here's sort of a recap checklist.

-Is the POV character the one with the most agency in the book, the chapter, or the scene?

-Is the POV character the one with the most at stake?

-Is the POV character the one the reader is most likely to relate to, or like the most?

-Is the POV character the one who deals with the biggest emotions or revelations in a scene? I know that that's something that I pointed out in some of your scenes in your book.

If your answer is no to any of those—either looking at the whole book or a specific scene—then you might want to consider if changing the POV or shifting things to make the answer “ye”s to the question is worth tackling.

So, to try to reiterate and clarify that: if, for example—just one of these questions—if your POV character for chapter five is not the person with the most at stake, then your options are either change the POV to whoever does have the most at stake in that scene, or take things in that scene and rearrange them so that the answer is now “yes,” so that the POV you are currently using is now the person with the most at stake, so that those things are more in alignment and that is the right POV for that scene.

I will also just add one more thing with this. So, with more than one POV, it's extra important to make sure that you are only showing a scene through a secondary character's POV if the protagonist isn't available to see through their eyes—which I know I touched on earlier, but it's really important. I know this came up in your work, and this was one of the things that sounded like you were very positively interested in changing in the rewrites and in our debrief.

I just want to reiterate that if your protagonist for the whole story—so looking at the global plot—is in the room, then they should probably be the POV, if that’s an option. And if they aren’t, you really have to ask yourself why and make sure, first of all, that whoever is the POV can answer yes to that list of questions that I gave—like do they have the most at stake, do they have the most agency—and if the protagonist for the global story isn’t the one with the most agency or the most at stake, you kind of need to back up another layer and ask yourself, “Am I sure that they are the protagonist for the global story?”

If you're in a position where a secondary character has a POV, definitely take a very deep look at that and make sure that it's not a symptom of a bigger issue.

Agnes: I just want to thank you so much. I feel like I learned a lot today, and I feel like this is what we've talked about a lot even behind the scenes. And so, it's kind of funny—like I could have probably continued to ask questions, but we do have a limited time. So, thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

Rebecca: Happy to. And yeah, it’s fun doing these and I love it when you have unexpected questions for me—it makes me think on my feet here.

For the moment, I would like to thank everyone who is following along with this series on YouTube or Spotify or wherever else you're listening to it. We would really appreciate it if you could help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Authors' Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and editors beyond this joint series.

If you haven't already, I also recommend that you check out the Authors' Alcove community on Patreon and their new membership site at authorsalcove.com.

Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great—so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more or visit my website linked in the description to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Using Blurbs To Test Story Strength: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 14

Tue, 08 Apr 2025 22:15:00 GMT

Episode 14 Overview:

Using Blurbs To Test Story Strength

“How well do I think I matched my blurb?How can I draft (or re-draft) a blurb for what I WANT this story to be? What differences between the two do I think I want to change in the blurb, or in the manuscript? Would those changes IMPROVE my general impression of the global story?”

Want to know what makes a good writer great? Rebecca teaches you how to edit your book yourself, offering expert fantasy book blurb advice. Unlike most writing instructions, she dives into how your book blurb can actually strengthen your story during the self-editing process.

Today, in this newest episode of 52-Week Story Savvy, Rebecca Hartwell (hartboundediting.com) and aspiring author Agnes Wolfe (authorsalcove.com) discuss how writing your blurb early in the process can enhance your storytelling and support your revisions. Whether you're drafting your first chapter or polishing a complete manuscript, this episode will help you align your story’s core with the emotional promise you make in your blurb.

This episode covers everything from what a blurb really is (and isn’t), to how to draft one that clearly communicates your protagonist’s goals, the book’s tone, and the genre’s expectations. You’ll learn Rebecca’s five-step process for writing blurbs, how to use them to identify story weaknesses, and how to avoid common blurb mistakes. Plus, Rebecca offers real-world encouragement for authors who dread writing blurbs—recommending Brian Cohen’s How to Write a Sizzling Synopsis as a powerful resource.

In This Episode:

~Writing an effective blurb

~What is a blurb and what it is not

~A 5-step blurb-writing process to draft, revise, and polis

~How to use blurbs as a self-editing tool

~Common blurb mistakes to avoid, like info-dumping, naming too many characters, or mismatching tone and content.

Recommended Resources:

~Book: How to Write a Sizzling Synopsis by Brian Cohen

~Developmental Editing Services (Expert Feedback AND Blurb writing service based on reading the whole book) – [https://hartboundediting.com]

~Authors’ Alcove Membership Site – [http://authorsalcove.com]

~Book Giveaway – [http://authorsalcove.org]

See you next week for episode 15: Checking Your Narrative Style Choices

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Blurb Creation, Help, or Reworking

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Want to have a blurb written by an experienced professional who actually reads the full story to do so? I've got you! I am happy to create one from scratch or use a blurb you've already made as a starting point, and will consider elements such as genre/subgenres, tropes, target audience, current trends, overarching themes, and the strongest elements of YOUR story in crafting a short, punchy blurb sure to catch readers, including a tailor-made tagline, synopsis, and selling paragraph/call-to-action .

Also available as an add-on to a developmental edit or expert beta read for only $100.

Episode 14 Transcript:

Using Blurbs To Test Story Strength

Rebecca: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 14 of the weekly Story Savvy series where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you've wanted to. We have covered so much in this series so far, including last week's episode on how to improve the overall global pacing of our stories.

Today we are going to take a look at how we can use blurbs to do a wellness check on the core elements of our stories. By the end of this episode, you'll hopefully feel confident drafting your first blurb if you haven't yet, or rewriting one that you already have, and using it as a measure of how closely the story you wrote matches the story that you wanted to write. Joining me to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host Agnes Wolfe.

Agnes: Hi, I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle-grade fantasy later this year, and I'm also the host and founder of Authors Alcove. I'm here today to tackle the often-intimidating topic of blurbs and how they can be helpful long before you start trying to sell your book.

Alright, so I'm going to start off by saying that I have already written my blurb and one of the things that I noticed when I wrote my blurb, and this is before I'm starting to ask questions, was that I realized I wanted to change who my audience was.

So, like, something like even as simple as that because I had sent you a blurb but I recently was read readjusting it and I realized that my audience isn't necessarily exactly who I originally set out for it to be and it also is going to impact my story in a very impactful way. So anyways, I'm very excited about this particular episode. So, I think that from talking, I've interviewed so many people, talking to so many people, they have so much trouble with their blurb. How do you tell people what your book is about without telling them too much, which I think is what some people struggle with, while still keeping that interest?

Rebecca: So, I think I'm going to go over what a blurb is and isn't to answer this. A blurb is how you sell the best and most meaningful and most intriguing or rewarding aspects of your story to prospective readers in a few paragraphs. It is not a synopsis where you summarize the blow-by-blow plots of the story in a few pages.

Blurbs are about emotion, impact, and color. They are not about details, explaining anything—that's often an issue that I see, is people want to explain their world building or their magic system in the blurb—or listing more than the biggest and best necessary aspects.

For example, blurbs should use the most evocative and valenced language possible, but should not name more than three characters, absolute maximum, and only the first names of those characters in nearly all cases. For the purposes of these exercises that we're talking about in this episode, your blurbs really, really don't need to be perfect. Just having a best attempt is fine for now.

And when in doubt, go back to the list of similar books to your own in your genre that you hopefully kept from the early exercises in this series and use them as templates and inspiration for what a blurb is and should look like.

Agnes: So, I know myself, like I actually wrote my blurb before I even wrote the first chapter, and it has changed like a million times since then. And I've talked to a lot of authors, and it's funny because some authors are like, let's write it at the beginning so that way I know what the direction is, and that's actually what I did. And I did that without ever hearing anyone else do that. And then I hear other people who wait till the very last minute and they don't have a clue what they're going to do, but they wait till they're all done. So my question for you, as a development editor, is when do you feel someone should write their blurb? Yes, that’s the question.

Rebecca: So, I think you did it right. I personally recommend drafting just a rough, totally low-pressure blurb as soon as you can. I personally do it right before I start drafting, after I've done all of my plotting and outlining, just to check the viability of the story idea.

And I believe that this is applicable if you're a plotter or a pantser. Writing a blurb just before you start drafting can be really, really helpful in doing that sort of gut-check. However, this is a self-editing series, so it's also totally fine to draft one now, at this stage, for the first time, if you want to do these exercises. Or you can wait and only write a blurb for marketing like most authors do. That's fine.

Agnes: So, if most authors wait, then why are we covering this blurb this early in the process of the self-editing course?

Rebecca: It has layers. For the purposes of this episode, we want to use it as an exercise to check how well we achieved what we were going for with the story in a new way that might help us see it more objectively. To start thinking about how it will be viewed by people encountering this story idea for the first time, and if that vague first impression is strong enough. And, to check if we, basically we're using it to make sure that the crucial elements of our story—the emotions, characters, events—are all layered correctly for our genres.

Agnes: So, I know I'm a dork and I actually really enjoy writing blurbs, but I have interviewed so many authors and it's surprising how many hate it. Like they don't just dislike it, they hate it. And so, do you have any advice for those that just don't know what they're doing? They don't want to write it, but they know that it's an essential part of writing. What is your suggestion for how to do that? Are there any resources out there?

Rebecca: I'm like you, I love writing blurbs. I love writing my own blurbs, I love writing blurbs for other people, and I'm aware that we are the minority here. Most authors, yeah, hate it.

So, first of all, don't try to get it right the first time. Just take that pressure off yourself right now. Again, I highly recommend looking at other books in your subgenre, as niche as you can, for ideas and to get a sense of what you're going for.

I also highly recommend the book How to Write a Sizzling Synopsis by Bryan Cohen, which I will link in the description. The book is great; I've tried using their services and it was less great, but I do very much recommend the book. And he does free online trainings on writing blurbs sometimes, which are also fantastic.

But anyway, so here are my personal five-step recommendations for writing a good blurb.

Number one, to get started with writing a blurb, iteratively brainstorm a ton of possible first lines before picking a favorite. And we've talked about this in previous episodes. Just try to get 50 written down as quickly as you can, and if one sparks your inspiration, see if you can branch off of that until that creative juice runs out and go back to the list. Once you have a favorite, then you can start reworking that and really polishing it up. So, this first line, for what this needs to be, is it could be the what-if question for your book or the unique premise for your book, but it doesn't have to be. It just needs to be basically the movie poster line is, I think, the best description I've heard for it. If you were to have a movie poster in a movie theater that was your book, your story, what would the poster say? That's sort of your hook line, your introduction line.

A side note to this is that blurbs are usually written in third-person present tense, even if the book itself is written in some other narrative style. So, when you're writing your blurb, try to be in third-person present tense if you can.

Step two is just roughly draft one or two paragraphs about this list of things. So, I'm going to list things that would all be in these one or two paragraphs. So, number one, where your protagonist starts, where is their baseline beginning point? Two, what kicks off the story? Three, what is the biggest escalation, complication, or test in the first half? And that protagonist's biggest goal, pushing or pulling them through all of that? If you are writing dual POV romance particularly, this is often one paragraph for the FMC and one paragraph for the MMC, so female main character, main male character, covering at least one of those points for each of them, but ideally hitting all three of those vital elements in one paragraph for each of those.

So, the side note on this one is that the more you can let the potential reader relate to the protagonist just from reading the blurb, the better. If there is any relatable aspect to the character that you're really hoping will connect with those ideal readers within your genre, that is absolutely something that you should try to put into your blurb.

So, step three for this overall writing process is write a short paragraph after those one or two about the core conflict of the story, ending in the cliffhanger of your midpoint shift. And this is often phrased as a question. So, if your midpoint shift is, let's say, you know, it's romance and it's a breakup, the question that you're ending your blurb cliffhanger on might be something like, “will Jack and Jill reconcile their differences and find their happily ever after? Or will their stubbornness get in the way…” You don't want to give away anything in the second half of the story because then you've spoiled the book for people. But using that midpoint drop that you hopefully have is a great cliffhanger way to end the blurb and really get people pulled in.

So, step four is go through your blurb and tweak your wording to be more emotional, more concise, so, boiling things down as much as you can, more colorful and descriptive, and more valenced, so, more extremely positive or extremely negative in the word choices that you're using to describe things.

The last step, so step five for writing a blurb for beginners, is edit for length—which knowing most authors, you’ll probably have to edit down—to about 200 words. The precise number for blurbs varies a bit by who you ask or what platform you're writing it for, but 200 is a comfortable middle ground. But again, we're doing this as an exercise for ourselves at the moment, so the length doesn't matter too much, but I do encourage listeners and anyone doing this exercise to get it down to 200 words if you possibly can because a big point of this exercise is distilling the story down as condensedly as you possibly can.

Agnes: So, like I've already written mine, where does this exercise start if we have an old blurb from our planning or drafting stage where we just are using it for proof of concept or something like that?

Rebecca: If you have an old blurb for your book from back in that planning or drafting stage, check to see how closely the story you actually ended up putting on paper in full length form matches that blurb. If there's a discrepancy, look at where that is and what it is, or if you feel like you're stretching the truth to decide that they match, to tell yourself that they match, also look at that, and decide which side of that discrepancy you like more. Do you like the original idea that you had in that blurb or do you like what it actually ended up being more? And just look at that. See if you can tweak one to match the other, to match the one that you like more. And this is a very overwhelming piece of advice to give, so take that with a grain of salt and understand that this whole episode is basically trying to break that process down into more actionable steps.

Agnes : So that was actually something that I realized when I was readjusting my own blurb very recently is because when I decided to take stuff out, I decided to look at my blurb again. And I think that I actually, originally I wanted Amelia to be the protagonist, but I actually think I might have dual protagonists with Amelia and Julian being dual because I don't think my audience is necessarily just girls.

And also, I think about all my favorite books and a lot of them, like Fablehaven, has two primary protagonists and that's really going to shape what my book is. So, it is interesting that when I was working on my blurb, that was when I was like, you know what, I actually think that I'm going to change this in my book. So, it's interesting that we're talking about that here.

Anyway, so if I'm starting out on this exercise with writing a blurb for this book for the first time, pretending I'm starting it for the first time, should I be writing it exactly for the book as it is? Or for how I intended it to be after I'm done editing?

Rebecca: I recommend writing both and comparing them. So, the practice of writing multiple blurbs will be helpful in developing those skills. And the difference between those two blurbs, if you write both, will likely show you where you need to prioritize yourself in the self-editing.

So, if you're looking at the ideal and the reality and there's a difference between the two, then you know that you have room to bring that reality up to match the ideal. So, I very much recommend writing both. That's very much what this exercise is about.

Agnes: So, once we have our blurbs, what exactly are we doing with them at this stage? Because we're not using it to market yet.

Rebecca: Yep. All right, this is where we break down what this episode exercises are.

So, there are four different steps or exercises that you can do here, either with an old and updated blurb. So, you know, do more than one blurb. Or with two brand new ones like we were just talking about—one of the reality and one of the ideal.

So, exercise number one is: decide if you like the old blurb or what you thought the book was going to be more or less than the very honest assessment of the book. Did you achieve what you wanted to with the story? Did it end up being the genre, tone, and payoff you were inspired to write in the first place? If you feel like you didn't quite get the story to be what you'd wanted it to be, then proceed with this episode and I will take you through how to tackle that.

If you like the new or more honest version most, then you can do the rest of these exercises by all means but mostly focus on letting those improvements shine through in an updated blurb that matches the reality that you like more.

Exercise two is: ask yourself what differences between the ideal and the reality do I think I want to change in the blurb so that it matches the reality better? Or do I want to change in the manuscript so that it matches the ideal blurb more? Then ask yourself would those changes improve my general impression of the global story? Do I think that it would improve my potential readers' first impressions of my story, especially within my genre? And then, having decided those things, sit down with a notebook, brainstorm, and plan out how you could tweak things as needed until you feel satisfied with the answers.

Step three, or third exercise here, is: try to read the blurb as a stranger would, as objectively as you possibly can. Or ask a friend or fellow author to read it and tell you in as much detail as they can what they think the book will contain in regard to the plot, protagonist, general tone or vibe, and the emotions or topics it's going to explore based on the impression they got from the blurb that you've written. You're basically checking if the blurb is, you know, promising something that isn't actually really being delivered.

You're checking to see if you're going to disappoint readers by promising something that doesn't get delivered. You're checking to see if it is giving any wrong impressions that just don't fit the reality of the story. You're checking if there are any core aspects of the story you think would really hook readers which are missing from the blurb, which people aren't picking up on from the blurb.

So going through this exercise, jot down any realizations that you have around that reader perspective, trying to step out of your author perspective or editor perspective for a second, and consider if you need or want to tweak either the blurb to better represent what is there, or again, tweak what is in the story so that these promises in the blurb are being fulfilled.

Exercise number four is: you can use the blurb to check how well some of your major aspects or moments are working. As you are crafting or reworking the blurb, especially with Bryan Cohen's excellent advice in that How to Write a Sizzling Synopsis book, make sure that there really are emotions and stakes in everything. What is at stake? Can you describe your protagonist's goals in a sentence, in blurb form? If not, you may need to simplify, or clarify, or strengthen them in the story. Is the time, place, and fantasy or reality balance of your world-building clear in blurb-length brevity? If not, you may need to revisit your world building to make it more comprehensible or immersive. Are there nice big—relative to your genre, big is interpretable—values or valuables at stake in the story as a whole and in the major moments that you mention in the blurb? If not to any of this, you might need to go back into the manuscript and up the ante or clarify things, bring things more to the surface.

Another question you can ask when you're doing this exercise is are the genre-appropriate, intriguing emotions that you're promising through your genre choice woven through all of that? If not, you may need to revisit your protagonist’s character arc and make sure that they really are deeply invested in the outcome of their own story.

Basically, use the blurb as a lab test to make sure that when you distill all of the most important aspects of your story into a few hundred words, all of the ingredients are still mixing together really well and seem appealing. If they don't, it should help you see where you need to go in and make those edits. And from all of the notes that you have from this exercise, you then take those notes, and you go into the manuscript, and you start making those actual edits wherever you feel that they are needed.

Agnes: Thank you so much. I really appreciated all of that. But, you know, I know that we are in the minority that we love writing the blurbs.
Do people who are not huge fans of writing blurbs, do they really have to do this at this part of the self-editing process?

Rebecca: No, it's optional. It's just an option that makes sense to explore at this stage if you're going to at all.

Agnes: Alright. Well, I know I have read many blurbs, especially of self-published authors, which I think is where I'm leading right here, who I feel do not get the essence of their story in their blurb.

So, what are the key elements of a blurb that we should have so, you know, mine truly gets the essence of my story?

Rebecca: First of all, it's helpful to look at this as potential ingredients rather than a strict recipe that must be followed.

But some of those aspects that I can recommend right off the top of my head are: name your protagonist, but just by their first name. Mention their role in life or their general starting point—if you're writing romance, mention if the MMC is a cowboy. That's relevant. If you're writing fantasy, mention if your main character is a warrior or a magician or something like that. Third point would be, mention the core value at stake in the story.

So that might be justice, or freedom, or love, or life and death, enlightenment, or a fate worse than death in horror. Each genre has an emotional promise or a stakes promise and mentioning that in your blurb is potentially helpful.

If there is any fantasy or magic in the story, that should be mentioned. It is amazing how many blurbs I have seen for indie fantasy that don't mention that it's not set in reality. And it's just, it's a big missed opportunity. You need to signal, “hey, people who are looking for magic stories, you're looking for this book.”

You can mention where the story is taking place if that's central to the story being told, but this mostly applies to books set in the real world to some degree. If you have invented your own kingdoms in fantasy, probably don't mention them in the blurb.

Definitely, absolutely for all genres, mention one to three or so of your major tropes or subgenre markers. So, in your specific case for your book that I read and edited, that's probably the age of your protagonist. So, you know, so the potential readers know roughly what age of reader this is geared towards. Mention that it has dragons—that's a major selling point of your books. And maybe also mention ancient secrets or the prophecy or something with that sort of magical intrigue to it. Very importantly, mention the protagonist's core goal—which I touched on earlier, but it is so important I'm going to mention it again—or at least what that goal is in the first half. Again, if that changes through their dark night and they have a different goal going into the climax, you don't have to mention that in the blurb, but you need to have some goal or motive mentioned in the blurb so that the reader understands that there will be momentum of some sort.

Another thing to mention is the force of antagonism. So, whatever the tension or conflict or hurdles are that are coming at the reader and making things interesting in the story, mention those. You can name your villain for this if you have a classic villain, if that feels appropriate, but you can also be vague. So, write something like, you know, “Julian does something or something as he fights against the ancient powers determined to corrupt his best friend's bond with her dragon,” something like that.

You don't have to name the villain to name things like “tries to corrupt or,” you know, “the evil king holding them captive,” things like that.

So lastly on this “brief” list, and this is something that I suggest only worrying about when editing the blurb, so after drafting it, make sure that you are accurately presenting the emotions and tone of the book. And this is a little repetitive on other stuff that I've said, but it bears repeating here. This is probably the single most common mistake I see in blurbs. Where the author seems to have gotten caught up in making the blurb sound extra dramatic or extra funny or extra serious or romantic and swooning, and then the book ended up, in reality, being a very watered-down version of that emotion or an emotion that's not quite exactly what was promised. It's, you know, one degree to the right kind of thing. Which is very disappointing for your reader, because if the blurb is promising the most dramatic drama ever, and you get it's kind of dramatic, that's not great. So, try to get your blurb to accurately portray what emotion the book is promising and to what degree. Very, very important. Good first correct impressions are vital right off the bat.

Agnes : So, some thoughts that I've been having while you were talking is that, for one, this ties back to audience, because like you said, you know, you have to have it match both your book, the tone needs to match the book and the blurb, but then it also goes right back to audience.

And one thing that I notice as somebody, so like, you know, when I first started off podcasting and was interviewing authors, I accepted a lot of authors, and now I'm a little bit more choosy because I have 100 to choose from, only have 52 slots to fill, you know, and then I take some weeks off, so I don't even fill 52, so I have to turn people down sometimes. So one of the things that I do now, as I'm like eliminating, the first thing I do is I look at the genre, see if the genres fit for my audience, for my podcast, and then you got to think about, okay, this is also your reading audience, you know, like we're looking at the same sort of thing. And then I look at the blurb. And so, then I have contacted several authors after reading the blurb, being like, I'm not sure yours is a good fit because, you know, this is what we're looking for, fantasy and whatever. And then they come back and say, "But it is fantasy." But their blurb did not portray it. And so, I do find it interesting because you said if there is magic, then you need to have that. And how many authors, especially self-published authors, tend to miss that particular thing?

Rebecca: Yeah, if there is romance, or if there's, you know, global nuclear stakes, whatever it is that that is a major aspect of the book, you need to mention that in the blurb!

Agnes: Yeah, and because otherwise you're going to miss, like, that's mainly what I read too. And I do read a lot of the books of authors that have sent me their things, and I even read some of them that I don't even accept on my show, but I only read it if I like the blurb, if the blurb sounds like me, that I am your audience.

Anyway, I know we need to wrap up. But I do want to ask one last question: What if we end up feeling overwhelmed by how different the reality of our book is from the ideal and our blurb when we get to the ending stages?

Rebecca: Yeah. So again, this is an optional exercise step. All of these steps are technically optional. But for this one, if you're feeling overwhelmed, try rewording the blurb to bring it more in line with the reality of the story without making the blurb worse. It's a lot easier to rework 200 words than it is to rework 100,000.

So, if you're really feeling overwhelmed by the difference, see if you can make the blurb match more accurately without making it sound lamer. And that will immediately take things off your plate. If you're worried that your emotions aren't there yet, maybe you're just naming the wrong emotion in the blurb. So, tweaking that can immediately take a lot of that load off.

Also, and as always, set things aside for a little while and see if things settle into place in your mind on a random Tuesday while you're taking a shower. If they don't, and again, as always, you can always decide that if something is worth doing, then it's worth doing, but sometimes it just isn't. Sometimes it's just not worth overwhelming yourself and putting off being done even longer in the self-editing stage. If you or any of our listeners are feeling overwhelmed, then just see what thoughts you have about this topic, this exercise, over the next week before we release the next episode, and then, you know, set anything that you're stuck on aside until, you know, until something comes up, if it ever does, and just move on to the next step, move on to the next topic. You'll be amazed, if you're anything like me, what your subconscious will do over time if you just set it aside and let it simmer on a back burner, so to speak. Epiphanies can come out of anywhere. And if you're feeling overwhelmed, then it's totally fine to set things aside and see if any epiphanies come up. And if not, maybe this isn't the exercise that's vital to you.

Agnes: Thank you so much for all that you shared about writing blurbs and stuff. I really appreciate it. I definitely am going to have to re-listen to this one, because I will have to compare, okay, what did I write? Did it sound like what she wants us to write? Or what you shared?
And what was the resource that you had suggested?

Rebecca: The book is called How to Write a Sizzling Synopsis by Bryan, spelled with a Y, Cohen, C-O-H-E-N. And I will link that in the episode description.

Agnes: And so will I. Thank you very much.

Rebecca: Absolutely.

Next week, we will move away from blurbs, never fear. And we will go over the sort of the last topic for the biggest layer of this self-editing series —where we're looking at global stuff —by checking our narrative style choices, like person, tense, and POV.

For now, I really want to thank everyone following along with this series. We would really appreciate it if you could help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Authors' Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series. And, if you haven't already, I encourage you to check out the Authors' Alcove community on Patreon or their new membership site at authorsalcove.com.

Agnes: And if you're looking for a development editor, we've got one really good one here, Hart Bound Editing. Definitely check her out.

And also, I'm really excited about next week. Hopefully it doesn't go too long, because I have a lot of questions for you that I'm very excited to ask, because, you know, point of view is one of the things that I struggled with. And I know that's one of the topics we're talking about, so.

Rebecca: Looking forward to it.

Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great so it can change lives and change your world.

Follow along to hear more, or visit my website linked in the description to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish. See you next time.

Pacing—Rises and Falls: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 13

Tue, 01 Apr 2025 20:55:19 GMT

Here is the graph of my personal story shape I promised in episode 13:

As I'd mentioned in the episode, it's roughly a combination of Kurt Vonnegut's 'Man in a Hole' and 'Cinderella' story shapes. I use this combination as I've found it the most universally applicable to genre fiction, particularly romantic fantasy, which is most of what I work on.
I also just want to mention that I only put in enough data to illustrate my point. If you are doing this for all of the chapters in a full-length fantasy novel, there may be more small-scale ups and downs within the overarching arc.

Episode 13 Overview:

Pacing—Rises and Falls

"How can I self-edit for pacing? What is too fast, or too slow? How can I tell and fix it? What if I get feedback that I have pacing problems?"

In This Episode:

What is “good pacing” in a story?
How to spot scenes that drag or rush
How to use a plus/minus method to help with mapping scenes
When and how to break the “chapter rules”
Solving pacing problems

Recommended Resources:

Story Rise and Fall Shapes [ https://bigthink.com/high-culture/vonnegut-shapes/ ]
Authors’ Alcove Membership Site – [ http://authorsalcove.com ]
Book Giveaway – [http://authorsalcove.org]

See you next week for episode 14: Using Blurbs To Test Story Strength

Watch or listen to the full podcast:

Episode 13 Transcript:

Self-Editing for Pacing—Rises and Falls

Rebecca: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 13 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great, as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to. We've covered a bunch of different topics in this series so far, including last week's episode on doing research for our stories to avoid factual plot holes or sensitivity issues.

Today we are going to take a look at pacing by discussing the rises and falls of our plots and characters. By the end of the episode, you'll hopefully feel confident defining what makes a story well-paced and in identifying how to spot and fix common pacing issues. Joining me today to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolfe.

Agnes: Hi, I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later this year and also the host and founder of Authors Alcove. I'm here today to tackle the topic of big picture book pacing, which I'm super excited about. So first off, I want to ask what is pacing? What exactly are we checking in our self-editing for this episode?

Rebecca: There are as many definitions of what pacing is as there are authors and editors out there who have an opinion. So here are the ways that I look at pacing collected from various books on craft and my own experiences as a writer and an editor. First of all, it is giving the reader enough time but not too much to cover each thing that happens. So balancing the right amount of brevity or providing details at all times.

Second, it is maintaining a good balance between high-intensity and low intensity moments, which means keeping things interesting often enough and in the right places, but also letting the reader process and take a breath often enough in the right places. Third, it is using scene and chapter breaks to present the story in correctly lengthed, bite-sized pieces. Fourth, it is using variety in the type, emotion, intensity, direction, change type, and outcome of scenes to avoid burnout or boredom from repetition in the reader.

And then I forgot what number I'm up to, I think it’s fifth, is making sure that each scene in the story always has momentum moving towards or away from something meaningful and avoiding describing things passively without, or, that are happening, without direction.

Angie: So how can we tell when the pacing or emotional rhythm or whatever else you want to call it is off?

Rebecca: That is really the overarching question for this episode. So let's just plow ahead for the moment and hopefully that will feel answered by the end of the episode.

Agnes: Okay, so how can we tell if we are describing something too much or too little?

Rebecca: We'll definitely go into this more later in the series, like at the line level, but at this stage let's go ahead and take a look at the very big picture for this. So on a scale of one to however many you want to work with, how vital is an aspect that you are looking at or a character or event or etc. to the main plots? The amount of description that that element or aspect or whatever gets should match that number.

So your protagonist, hopefully, is going to rank number one on importance for character importance to the plot, or at least it should. So they get the most description without it feeling like it's too much, though still, you know, using good judgment is a good call to not go overboard on describing them. However, a character with minimal or no speaking lines or who only shows up in one scene or could be replaced by just about any other character should be scoring very low on whatever metric you're using to rank this, and therefore should be getting a similarly reduced amount of description or page time or however you want to count that.

Genre is also going to have a lot of influence on this topic as well, so knowing what your readers expect as far as how immersively detailed or how, you know, sparsely action-driven the story is is very important. That's why we cover genre and audience so early on. The last point that I want to touch on here is that you can also just look at the length of the chapter that you are worried about being over-described or under-described if you are confident that you're splitting your chapters well, which we'll touch on a little bit later.

If it's too long, look at where you may have gotten too much in the zone with describing things in very, very deep detail more than is needed and how you could trim that down. If it's too short for your ideal chapter length or scene length, then look at how you could add more meat to the scene with more things happening using more scenes to describe the setting or events and that kind of stuff to bring it up to that ideal length. So you can kind of judge.

It's not foolproof at this point, but if you really feel like your scenes are more or less consistent, you have outliers, those are often hints that it's underwritten or overwritten.

Agnes: So, you know, this is one of those things where I know, because I actually like when people break this, but where you have to know the rule before you can break it. So I'm going to bring this up, but you mentioned chapters earlier.

What is a matter? Should we break chapters where things are wrapped up between scenes or right before climaxes, like mini cliffhangers?

So that's the overarching questions, but I'm going to preface this with I love the absurd, but it's one of those things where it has to be the right book to be able to break this and have it. And there's certain authors who I absolutely adore who totally break this, and they'll have like one sentence. Jasper Ford is one of them.

But like some of my favorite authors do this, but this is also one of those that I know that you have to know the rule and do it well before you can break it. So let's just start off with should we break chapters where things are wrapped up between scenes, or right before? What are the best rules about that?

Rebecca: Yes, so I totally agree for starters that if you have a rule established, then when you break it and you do so intentionally, it can be great, but you have to have the rule established first. So bite-size is basically what it sounds like.

It's incredibly rare to find books that aren't split into chapters of some length of some kind for a very good reason that we all know that books are easier and more fun to consume when they are parted down like that. My favorite analogy for bite-size chapter lengths is that many, many more people, including myself, would rather sit down and eat a whole bag of potato chips in one sitting than would happily eat one giant potato in one sitting. So that's basically what we're doing with our whole book is we're breaking it down into literally consumable smaller portions.

However, there is a happy middle ground in this. You don't want to have a hundred one-page chapters for the most part. Your genre will often dictate chapter length a little bit, such as high fantasy being far more accepting of longer chapters than, let's say, contemporary romance.

But the rule of thumb for genre fiction, which is what we're mostly talking about editing in this series, is 1.5 thousand to 2.5 thousand words per chapter. You can't really go wrong in any genre if you're aiming for that middle ground. And even in high fantasy, which allows that longest, I strongly suggest keeping your chapters under 5,000 words whenever possible.

As for where to split chapters, there are two different right answers as far as I'm concerned as an editor, which are the two that you mentioned actually. So to go into detail on those, option one basically treats scenes or a grouped set of scenes that go together as chapters, basically, synonymous with chapters for the most part. Both are containing a single major event for the story, the lead-up to it, and the fallout.

And it's this nice little encapsulation around the main event of that scene and or chapter. Option two is what you'd mentioned where you choose to use those mini cliffhangers to aid in the momentum of your story, carefully splitting your chapters right where the tension is highest in the middle of a scene, right before the climax of that scene is revealed. And then you'll have your scene beginnings and ends in the middle of a chapter, more or less.

You can never really go wrong with the first option, but I do have a slight warning with the cliffhanger version. If you overuse it, it can feel cheap, frustrating, and like you're trying too hard to manipulate the reader into reading on in a way that's, like I said, more manipulative than good story craft. I will also just add that using cliffhanger chapter breaks are more likely to be a good choice and received well by your reader around the global climax. If you really want to do that, do it in that part of the story.

Agnes: So one of the things that I noticed that you're talking a lot about is, because you said, if this, then that, like we have to know our audience is essential. And I think it goes back to like, I really like when people do the breaking, but it has to be the books that are absurd.

So like any serious book cannot get away with it. So their target audience is people who enjoy the absurd. I love nonsense.

I love whatever, which is why I love Jasper Ford for example. But speaking back to like pacing, I know as a reader, some of the biggest mistakes I see writers do is they have things either low for too long or high for too long. If it is high for too long, I will set it aside.

Like I just can't handle, I've read some and if it's too emotional for too long, I have to set it aside. I can't handle it. And then if it's too low, I tend to get bored and I forget about the book.

And I set it aside again, and just forget to pick it back up. So how do I know if I have too many high intensities and too many low intensity ones in a row, as far as scenes and stuff?

Rebecca: For what it's worth, I think this is also the most common issue that I see as an editor is either burnout, which is too many high intensity, or boredom, which is too many low intensity. So my personal recommendation for tackling this in the self-editing is I suggest spreadsheeting it.

And I know not everyone is a spreadsheet person like I am, but it can be very helpful and it doesn't matter if this is on a computer, if you're doing this on a lined notebook, just having that sort of structure can be very helpful. So make a list of each chapter name, or if you want each scene name if you haven't decided on your chapters yet. Then, next to each of those entries, mark how high intensity or low intensity you feel it is.

You can pretty much do this any way you want to, but I will often use a plus or minus sign, or if it's extreme, a plus plus or a minus minus, just to kind of have a very quick visual gauge for where that scene is on an emotional scale. Once you have that list, just look for clusters. If you have a run of lows together, a run of minus signs together, then look at where you could bring the interest or the tension up, or make more things go wrong, whatever you want to do to kind of break up that run of lows.

If you have a run of highs together, a bunch of plus signs all in a row, then look at where you could let your protagonist, and therefore the reader, take a breath and process whatever high tension things have been happening on either side of that.

Agnes: I love that, because that was something that, I don't know, I loved what you just suggested about the plus plus minus minus plus minus, and you don't even have to do a spreadsheet, really. You can just put at the beginning of your chapter or beginning of your scene, depending on how, because some people break it up with scenes, some people break it up with chapters, whatever.

You could just do that even right in front of that, as the name, and then you just kind of scroll through. I really like that. That's not something I thought of, and I think it's going to help me in my edits now. Thank you so much.

Rebecca : Excellent. It's definitely a simplified version of something that Story Grid recommends, and they're called Story Grid because they love spreadsheets, and they do all kinds of grids like this.

Agnes : See, I did Save the Cat. That is what I read, and I keep meaning to get Story Grid, and I actually got it on my Kindle, but I think I need to buy just a hard copy, because I don't think I'm going to remember to read it on Kindle, because ever since you recommended it, I keep thinking, and you recommended it to me over a year ago when I interviewed you for the podcast, and I've had it on Kindle ever since, and I keep thinking, I want to read this one too, but I always pick up my Save the Cat, because it's the one I have in hard copy when I go to reference.

Rebecca : Story Grid isn't a Bible. It's not perfect as a resource, but boy, it has some gems in there, and reading through it, you can just make a mental note like, oh, that little thing, that's a great idea. I'm stealing that. So that's why I recommend it. It's not like the be-all, end-all, but it's got a lot of great nuggets that might fit any individual author.

Agnes : And I think that's true about anything, like even having your developmental editor. I would probably change like 90, maybe 80 to 90 percent of what you said.

I'm like, yes, she is so right. I need to change this, but there is that 10. I bet it's closer to 10, 10 percent where I'm like, no, no, I'm not listening.

Rebecca : Honestly, those numbers are better than normal. So…

Agnes : I haven't fully done the editing. I've been kind of setting it aside because I've been daydreaming about the other books, which, by the way, it's come up to five now. I know I had said it was three, four, and then I realized that second or that third, fourth book, it's now, it's turned into two books. So I'm like, wait, I have two storylines going here. But anyway.

Yeah. All right. So I'm loving this series, by the way.

Okay. Are there patterns we should be looking for when we are analyzing our pacing and emotional rhythm? Like I'm assuming the highs should progressively get more intense as we go to the climax.

Rebecca : This could be a whole episode on its own. So I will see how briefly I can answer this, but probably not that briefly. Okay. So first of all, you never have to have a perfect alternating between these highs and lows.

It doesn't have to be plus minus, plus minus, plus minus. That by itself is going to become a repetitive, frustrating, boring pattern. The exception here is that having a run of lows in the dark night of your story, so right after that midpoint drop for most story structures, is acceptable.

And having, you know, three or four highs in the climax is also acceptable. So that's one of those patterns that you can look for, is if you're going to have a run of lows, it's here. If you're going to have a run of highs, it's over here towards the end of the story.

I also love that you brought up that progressive aspect, because it is so important. And that's why I recommend having more than just plus and minus, having an extreme plus or an extreme minus in that measuring mix that you're using. It is really important that the highest high is the climax, and that the lowest lows are in that dark night or that midpoint drop. That kind of stuff.

So here's a really, really rough explanation of the two most popular patterns for this pattern that you're asking me to explain here, that you can watch for, both of which are based on Kurt Vonnegut's story shapes, which I'll link in the description for this episode. My go-to story shape is roughly a combination of two of them, so man in a hole and the Cinderella shapes.

So first, picture a graph with one at the very top, at the highest high, the plus plus plus, and then you have five at the bottom, which is the most negative scene or moment in the book. Right where the story starts, and I'm sorry if I get my right and left mixed up here, I'm not sure how this is going to look to folks watching the YouTube video, so bear with me, but right where the story starts, or perhaps the day before if you're starting the story as late as possible as I generally recommend, is going to be a three. It's going to be in the middle.

That's the neutral baseline. The first major event is then going to drop down to a four as the protagonist is thrown off balance and is forced to step deeper into the events of the story. Right after the first act breaks, so around the one-quarter mark, things are going to pick back up to a three, back to this neutral point as they regain some new sense of stability, likely because they've crossed the threshold into a new world of some sort.

Things keep building up to a false high of a two over the second quadrant, and you want them to hit that sort of false high before it drops all the way down to a four or a five at that midpoint shift, that midpoint drop that we've talked about in previous episodes. Through the dark night, it dips down to a true five, a true bottom of the bottom for your genre, for the story that you are telling if it didn't land there immediately with the midpoint drop, and then slowly crawls its way back up to a three as the protagonist goes through their needed internal changes, comes up with a new plan, better understands the force of antagonism, whatever that dark night arc is for them. Then the climax around the last act break, maybe into the last act, wherever you're placing that for your story, peaks at the one.

And it's expected that that one is going to be, you know, that's what makes it the climax. If the climax isn't the one in your story, it's not going to land right with the reader. And then after that, it's expected that it might ease back off into a two in the resolution, so between the climax and the end, as things get metabolized and the adrenaline comes back down.

But you'll notice that you started at a three, and you want to end at a two, especially if it's a prescriptive story, which most genre fiction is, so that you're showing that the story was worth it, because the starting point is a point worse off than the ending point, which means the story was worth telling, it was worth going through for the protagonist, all of that kind of stuff, showing that the new normal is better than the old normal was. So you can do this on a graph, you can do this on pen and paper, you can just do this in your head, whatever you want to do for that.

But the caveat that I want to add to this is that this, I've given this false impression that it's this nice, smooth line. It's not. I highly recommend when you're charting them, yeah, when you're charting it scene by scene, the whole like two steps forward, one step back is a great idea, and that can be two steps back, one step forward when that line is going down, and having that variety within that overarching arc is good story craft.

Agnes: And I think even just thinking of a mountain, because a mountain isn't like this, a mountain is like, and so like just thinking of a mountain, and I'm going to completely be honest here, so I do struggle with ADHD, a lot, and as soon as you said Kurt Vonnegut, I cannot say his name, he's like one of my favorite authors, and so like I literally like zoned out, and I'm so glad I get to watch this video again, because I'm like, I start thinking Breakfast of Champions, I remember something when I was, you know, like I started telling myself, I'm like, oh wait, what did she say? So yes, he is one of my all-time favorites, and it's because I have so many memories of reading his books, and yeah, but I like a little bit of absurdity.

So anyway, back to the questions. So one of the things that I know that I felt that I was doing in the first couple of my chapters, and like my first like, my first full draft, the first like 10 chapters really, is that I tend to plod along. What are things we should do to be sure that we are not boring our reader? And I still feel like I need to work on that with my first couple chapters, but like, that was something that I know I really struggled along, especially in the beginning of my book.

Rebecca: That is, that is a common issue, so don't feel too bad about this. The answer to this is basically the last two bullet points that I had in my very first answer for this episode. So, first and foremost, make sure that each scene in the story always has momentum through two checks that you can do on this.

First, make sure that something meaningful changes in the scene, which affects how or in what direction the story moves forward. And I'm going to keep saying this, how big that change needs to be, what kind of change that needs to be, is all going to depend on your genre, what kind of story you're telling, and where you are in the story. So just look for some kind of change.

Second, make sure the scene has something pulling the protagonist forward that they want, or pushing them forward which they are avoiding. So, this can be, oh I want to, you know, steal the or I'm running away from a bad family situation. There should be one of those pulling that story forward in every scene and that will really help with momentum, rather than just observing, oh they're doing this and now they're doing this and they're just living their life.

So, moving on to other bullet points there, having variety in scene type, or having variety of any kind, can help a lot with a plodding book, chapters, or scene, or whatever measurement you're looking at, including a variety in scene type, so traveling, or chatting over a meal, or fighting, or whatever else. You don't want to have multiple sitting and talking at a meal in a row kind of thing. You can have variety in tone, so serious, playful, stressed, chaotic, rigidly ordered, etc.

You can have variety in emotion, or intensity, which the last two questions kind of covered, so happy, scared, yearning, angry, curious, etc. You can have a variety in direction, so whether the protagonist is getting help and moving closer to their goal, or encountering hurdles, and moving further away from it, and encountering the force of antagonism. You can have variety in what the core change type of the scene is, so it moves closer to or away from freedom, or closer to justice, or away from enlightenment, stuff like that.

I hope that makes sense. So, you can also do, lastly, you can do variety in the outcome of a scene, whether the protagonist essentially won in that scene, or lost, and what that win or loss was.

Agnes: One thing that has occurred to me, because I'm a beta reader, I read all different genres, I'll do for beta reading, as long as it's something that I'd be interested in, is that when we're getting feedback from beta readers, so like I feel a little different, so when I'm saying something to a beta reader, I feel like I'm going all over the place.

I don't think that it's like set in stone, I think it's more of a preference thing. So like I'm going to take what you say about like if something feels too rushed, differently than I am going to from a beta reader. So what if we get notes back from beta readers saying our book is too slow or too rushed, how can we gauge whether it's a preferential thing, or whether it's something that we, or what we should actually look for? This is a great question and pretty applicable to all beta reader feedback, so hopefully if listeners hear this and they have similar issues, this will still be helpful.

Rebecca : First and foremost, I recommend asking for further details from your feedback reader, if that's remotely possible. Just like, hey, can you jump on a call, can we talk about this for 10 minutes? But there are a few common things that you can look for if you specifically get beta feedback on your pacing issues. So, if the whole book is slow, according to your beta reader, that can often be a lack of strong present or impactful goals or motives propelling the story along its path, in which case you should look at taking those up a notch as much as you can.

It could be a lack of tension and conflict. When things are too easy, or too coincidental, or too lucky like we've talked about in episode 11, that can definitely come across as slow pacing. In that case, I suggest revisiting episode 11 and that brainstorming exercise that I about reducing that plot armor impression to casual readers.

It might also be too much description of things that don't really matter to the plot or protagonist's arc, which is often called fluff or shoe leather or purple prose or overwriting or the like. In this instance, I recommend either setting the issue aside until we get to the episode in this series that will cover this much later, or just doing what you can now to really go through and make sure that there is an emotional plot relevant or meaningful character relevant reason to each paragraph as much as you can. Lastly, it can be a general lack of interesting aspects to the book.

So, if you think that's the case, if your beta reader says that's the case, I suggest doing a lot of brainstorming around how you could push any and every aspect of the book to be more unique or emotionally charged or innovative and just see how you can move those different parts of the book in a more interesting or innovative direction.

On the other side of that, if you get feedback that the book is too fast from your beta reader, then here's what I suggest. First and foremost, it could be that you are simply trying to do too much in one book. If you think that that might be the case, if that's what your beta reader is saying, I suggest revisiting episode six of this series on possibly splitting that story into multiple books so that they all have more room to breathe and assess if that might be the right answer for you now that you're getting that feedback.

Second on if it's too fast, you can check to see if you have gone too much in the direction of making everything too interesting at all time and aren't letting the protagonist or reader breathe, take a breath. In that case, I suggest that you make a list of the big moments in the story and make sure that they are properly processed by the protagonist and other characters in between them.

Specifically, you want that processing to happen as soon as it makes sense to do so after the big event and to do so in enough depth and detail that it really supports whatever choices or internal changes you want to come out of it for that protagonist arc.

Third and last on this, which is basically another approach to that same issue of not letting the reader breathe, see what you could add in to space out those high-intensity or fast-paced parts. This could be disadvantaging the protagonist in some further way so that it's harder for them to reach each next step. It could be a subplot designed to complicate the path to the climax, or a bunch of other options where you're just adding more content to space out that high-intensity burnout. And if you do this route, I do recommend that you, again, go back to the episode where we discussed possibly splitting your stories and make sure that you don't now need to do that, so that you have two better-paced books.

Agnes: So, I know we need to wrap up, so I just want to ask one last question. I feel like it's kind of restating what we've already stated. I loved the thing about the plus and minus, I love the going up to the one, but what are some actionable steps we can take to check the pacing in our own work?

Rebecca: I've got a couple of actionable exercises for this.

So, if you make a list of your major moments for the internal and external plot, if you're playing with both, and rate them by how big they are, or are likely to seem to the reader, are each of those big moments getting an appropriate and proportionate amount of addressing? Or is that off in either direction? So too little addressing, too little description for the big things, or too much description and addressing for little things. Just make a note where those need to be adjusted, and in what direction. Then later on you can go in and actually make those changes.

The second exercise is, do you have a nice mix of emotional rises and falls, or is your story just plodding along like we were talking about earlier? Do you have enough emotional rises or emotional falls, and do you have too many in one area or another? Again, we've already talked about this. So if you spot an issue, an area of issues around this, could you fix it by rearranging the order of scenes that you already have written and tweaking them to make sense in that order, or by changing the tone or outcome of a scene? So rather than adding or subtracting, can you just use what you already have and tweak it to make that fit better?

Exercise three is, are the events in each chapter motivated, at least in some small way, by moving towards or away from some global goal or motive? Is your protagonist noticeably closer or further away from their goal, need, or genre value such as love or enlightenment than they were at the beginning of that scene or chapter? If your answer is no to either of those questions, what moment or change could you add to that scene to keep up that momentum and interest?

We will definitely go into this one a lot more heavily in a later series when we get down into the scene-by-scene sort of structure, but looking at it at this point, if you're worried about your pacing, can still be worth it.

Agnes: Well, thank you so much. I found this particular episode one of my favorites that we've done so far, and I think it's because you gave me some actionable steps that I'm like, okay, because I know that I have some pacing issues, but I also like, okay, I can go by what you said when you read it, but I want to be able to look at it once I'm all finished, because I might be adding, subtracting, and then I might have a totally different type of pacing issue once I've corrected the pacing issues that you suggested. So this has been such an amazing one. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Rebecca: Excellent. I'm glad to hear it, and you are quite welcome.

Next week, we will go over using a very rough blurb to check the very biggest overview of what shape our story is in. For now, I really want to thank all of our listeners and everyone following along with this series. We would really appreciate it if you would help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Authors' Alcove Podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series.

And if you haven't already, I encourage you to check out the Authors' Alcove community on Patreon or their new membership site at authorsalcove.com. Thank you all so much.

Agnes: Thank you. Bye.

Rebecca: Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more or visit my website linked in the description to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Fact-Checking Research: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 12

Tue, 25 Mar 2025 22:45:42 GMT

Fact-Checking Research: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript...

I remembered the term I couldn't think of when recording! The Dunning–Kruger effect is the fascinating cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities. If you are interested, I highly recommend learning more about it from those far more qualified on the topic than I am.

Happy editing!

Episode 12 Overview:

Fact-Checking & Sensitivity Research

"What do I need to research more for my story? How and where should I do so? And do I really need to do much or any if I'm writing fantasy?"

Today, I teach you what every writer should know about how to do research for your novel, including how to make your story more believable and when & how to research for accuracy as we explore how to improve story writing skills in this latest episode of the 52-Week Story Savvy self-editing series.

Rebecca Hartwell, founder of Hart Bound Editing , joins aspiring author Agnes Wolfe from Authors’ Alcove to dig into research expectations for different genres, how to strengthen weak spots in world building, and how to fact-check your story without getting bogged down in endless details.

In this episode, Rebecca breaks down why fact-checking for sensitivity and to plug plot holes matters—even in fantasy—and how to figure out when and where your story needs more research. She offers practical advice on making sure your setting, characters, and plot feel authentic and immersive without overwhelming the reader.

In This Episode:

Why even fantasy writers need to research their worlds
How to spot knowledge gaps and avoid factual errors
When too much research slows down your writing process
The biggest research mistakes writers make—and how to avoid them
How to respectfully portray different cultures and historical settings
The fine line between creative liberty and historical accuracy
Practical research strategies for busy writers

Whether you’re trying to nail historical accuracy, develop realistic cultures, or improve your anatomical choreography in romance, these insights will help you research smarter and write with confidence.

Recommended Resources:

Authors’ Alcove Membership Site – [ http://authorsalcove.com ]
Book Giveaway – [ http://authorsalcove.org ]

See you next week for episode 13: Pacing—Rises and Falls!

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 12 Transcript:

Fact-Checking & Sensitivity Research

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 12 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you've wanted to.

We have covered a bunch of topics in this series so far, including last week's episode on creating forceful and effective forces of antagonism or villains.

Today, we are going to talk about fact-checking our fiction stories, especially in the self-editing sphere. So, by the end of this episode, you will hopefully feel confident identifying where you need to do more research or shore up your facts, how and where to do that research, and how to apply what you find (or choose not to.)

Joining me today to ask all of the questions is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolfe.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi! I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade fantasy later this year and also host and founder of Authors' Alcove. As always, I am super appreciative that I get the opportunity to ask all of these great questions that I've always wanted to ask a developmental editor, and so this is a great opportunity. Thank you very, very much.

But I'm here today to tackle plugging fact and reality plot holes in genre fiction. So, I wanted to start off by asking: at what stage should we begin our research?

Rebecca: Ideally, in the planning and plotting stage. But if you are past that at this point (or a pantser), then my recommendation is not too early on in the editing process.

I ordered this topic in this series where I did because this is where I suggest you do this step in your self-editing process. So, generally somewhere between any huge plot or character-level reworking, which is perhaps less objective (kind of depends on how you approach that), but before you end up having to tweak or shift some of your plot points based on the research that you do in your research checks, and your fact checks.

Agnes: So, what if we already know a lot about a topic? How would we know that maybe we need to research a little further?

Rebecca: Sometimes the point isn't just to get facts correct, but also to explain it to the reader if it's not common knowledge. I've been guilty of this in my own work. I have edited quite a few books where you could tell the author was super knowledgeable about something but wasn't great at remembering that their audience probably wasn't. And I've gotten really good feedback about that from my external readers: so, beta readers, dev readers, whatever I've got working with me.

So doing a few minutes of research, even on stuff that you already know a lot about, can help you gauge whether or not it's common knowledge, and, if you feel the need to explain it, how you might do so with maximum clarity and brevity.

Agnes: So, I remember us having a conversation way back when, and you know quite a bit about horses, and I remember you talking about how this particular book that we had read, there was some distracting information in that particular book. I don't know, it looks like you remember which book that was.

As authors, I think we all have some blind spots about what we truly know and what we don't actually know. How can we help find those facts that we might think we know more than we do about?

Rebecca: Great question. Yeah, that's definitely one—for starters, that's one of my niches. Horses are one of my niches. The cheap answer to your question is outside feedback. Even casual readers can really help with catching those spots, and that's part of why I always recommend you have multiple beta readers or alpha readers or whatever you decide to use.

And there are also topic experts—like I am, on horses or historical clothing—who specialize in their niches and can go through your book and not only spot where the issues are but do that research for you and correct them so you're going to be accurate with a lot less effort on your part.

I know that it's a huge thing in police procedurals, for example. That whole genre is pretty well known for having retired police officers, for the most part, just on speed dial to call them up and be like, "Hey, is this how police procedures actually work? Because that is my genre, the people who are reading my books, I know, are going to care about this topic, I need your help.” So outside feedback is the easy answer there.

If you are just doing this on your own—so if you don't have the option of outside feedback—then one of the options that you have is to check through some reader groups, ideally specific to your genre or subgenre, and see what people are complaining about inaccuracies around.

Google might also be able to help with this, too. But once you find those common complaints or topics to check, like anatomy or horse riding are two of the most common ones that I've seen, then do a quick glance through your book to see where you mention that topic, flag those, and just double-check using whatever research tool you want to that, you know, a five-minute Google search isn't going to contradict you. That you are at least making some attempt to get that correct. And again, as I'm sure you've heard in research advice, your local library is definitely a resource to bear in mind as well.

Agnes: So, doesn't writing fantasy kind of get me out of having to do all this research if it's magical?

Rebecca: Yes and no. That was certainly my hope when I started writing fantasy. Didn't turn out that way.

There are still rules to the world. Your world, any world that you read or write, you just get to establish what they are and where they do or don't match reality that we live in or know from history, which is always going to be the default when a reader starts reading.

So, some things, like how horses and tack and riding work, tend to be true to any reality regardless of how you're writing it, just as one example of places where fantasy doesn't get you out of it. The advice of “know the rules before you break them” very much applies here. And more than that, it's very helpful to your readers if they know the rules of your world before your magic system starts breaking them. However closely or distantly that mix ends up happening.

Agnes: I know actually some of the feedback I got from you on my own [book] was about some of the world-building. Mine is very kind of vague, like, a pre-technology era. So, what are your thoughts on that? Do I need to choose a time frame and research it, or can it be just vague?

Rebecca: I recommend that you do. That you pick some form of starting point reality. That’s often picking a decade and a location from history if you're not writing modern.

Everything post-apes living in trees—and even them, to some extent—is a technology level. You can't really say “pre-technology” because humans have always had technology. It might have been Stone Age technology, or Bronze Age technology, or early medieval, but they had some form of technology, and your reader is going to make assumptions around that.

A big part of this is immersion. You want to immerse your readers in smells, and sights, and sounds, and the scale and style of their village. Establishing, "Hey, this is set in 10th century Romania," is a shorthand to give them so much of that immersion.

Another consideration is that when you establish something like this—and you don't have to say it's set in 10th century Romania—but if you give them some idea like, "Hey, this is roughly medieval," or "roughly Victorian," or "roughly 1980s," that is going to allow them to make so many more correct assumptions without you having to tell them. If you set some sort of baseline, then when you mention something and don't give details, they can make correct assumptions about what you intended or what they should be picturing, that sort of thing.

Clearly knowing what rule base you are starting at before breaking them with the fantasy parts is needed. If you want to take your fantasy world way outside of anything that has actually existed, you still need to have a starting point.

So, specifics and details are immersive. Picking an answer can help with so many things without you having to think about them or research them or explain them—like what people are wearing or how they're getting around and how they are eating and everything else. So for all of these reasons, I personally highly recommend that you pick a starting point before building your world on it.

Agnes : That was actually one of the things that I realized when I was reading your feedback. You had mentioned these things, and I had a vision—but I was not portraying what I was envisioning. It made me realize I'm not necessarily doing research on a particular era, but research on how other fantasy novels actually portray that particular thing. When I was creating my world, I did not realize I was doing this, but I chose some of my favorite books, and that was the era.So I realized, "Oh, maybe one of the things I need to do when I'm doing some of that world-building to make sure that it's more consistent and that I'm giving my readers a visual is actually rereading some of those books that are set in the same time frame that I had in my head when I had written them."

Rebecca : And it doesn't have to be super specific. You don't have to base it on 1892. But basing it in the “late Victorian” [era] might be helpful. Or for a lot of high fantasy, early medieval or high medieval is totally acceptable.

You don't need to narrow it down further than that, but it needs to be that narrow, if that makes sense.

Agnes: Yes. So, another thing for me—because I write with mythical creatures, but I often take the concepts of others. How much research should we actually do for mythical creatures or things like that that are not fully based in reality?

Rebecca: In my opinion, only enough to make sure that you aren't using a certain term in a confusing way.

So, for example, if you were trying to call small cat-like pixies “ogres” in your world building, that would be very confusing. But beyond that, the fun for you and the reader is making up your own unique rules and details for your story in your world around those things.

I'll be honest, I see this question a fair bit in a lot of my reader or writer groups and kind of laugh when I see people asking things like this because it seems to imply that they think that there's some universal encyclopedia out there. Like you can go to a dictionary and look up exactly what an aardvark is. They think that there's some overruling guideline about what vampires are and what gnomes are and all this kind of stuff, and there isn't. And like I said, the point is to let your creativity come through in these things.

While it's good to know what's expected from genre expectations, or, vampires kind of have to have a thing for blood, that's what makes them a vampire, as well as knowing what's being overdone so that you don't fall into just recycling a very tired version of that. Then yeah, taking creative liberty and ‘make believe’ in doing whatever you want with these things I think is exactly what you should do.

Agnes: So, I know there are certain things that I have strayed away from, but so my question is when referencing other time periods or different cultures specifically, how can we be assured that we are portraying it in a respectful way?

Rebecca: Great question. So, at the most basic, just spend some time researching those aspects, be it LGBTQIA representation or Black characters featured in a book written by a non-Black author, really heavy or traumatic topics, or anything else.

In this case, I specifically suggest doing so through books rather than on the internet and from resources (in either place) written by people inside that culture rather than on the outside looking in. There are also groups that you can bring questions to, like the Facebook groups Writing with Social Awareness or Free Emotional Labor Club. They are both fantastic. I recommend them for this. I specifically suggest using those groups' search function within that group and reading through what others have already asked and answered about a particular topic rather than asking the same question afresh which those groups have already addressed dozens if not hundreds of times.

Lastly on this topic, sensitivity readers are a thing. You can find those for free or as a service.

I have used one for my own work because I was writing about a trans secondary character and I wanted to make sure that I was doing that respectfully as someone who isn't trans. And again, it's important to find readers who not only just specialize in that area of cultural sensitivity or identity sensitivity or whatever else you're working with, but ideally who are members of that group rather than someone who has studied it from the outside.

Agnes: I definitely agree with that, the sensitivity readers and things like that. I have an adopted daughter, and one of the things that I realized early on when I was writing some nonfiction was that a lot of people wanted me to write from an adoptive parent's perspective. But the one thing I realized is that I can't write from an adoptive child's point of view because I'm not an adopted child. And having raised one, I realize that there are a lot of things that I don't think people—especially even as a foster parent, which I was, an adoptive parent—are aware of because you're not there. You can't be. You can ask your child, but as a writer, we need to be very curious and compassionate. We need to be willing to ask the questions. And sometimes they can be hard questions to ask.

Rebecca: Yeah, and I will say on this topic—not directly related to this episode's topic—but there's a difference between trying to write the stories of someone whose experience you don’t share and simply representing them.

So, the classic example that I've seen is that it's great to include people of color in your stories as a white author. That representation matters. But you're probably not in a position to write a story about living in the world as a person of color if you aren’t part of that group.

That’s a line that I see some authors getting mixed up with, especially on the sensitivity front. You don’t have to be queer to write about a cast that includes queer characters. But if you want to write a story about being a queer person in a world that isn’t accepting of that and finding queer love, then you might need to take pause and reconsider.

Agnes: That makes so much sense. So back to some of the other questions: what are the biggest mistakes authors make when they actually take the time to do the research? Do they add too much detail and still get it wrong somehow?

One thing I’ve been thinking about as we’re talking about this is that I read somewhere that people who are in the bottom 20% of knowledge on something tend to think they are in the upper portion, while those in the top 20% tend to think they are in the 50th percentile.

So, we often don’t know what we don’t know. So, I’m just bring that up, but my actual question is: what are the biggest mistakes authors make when they actually do the research?

Rebecca: Oh, I did actually know the term for that phenomenon at some point! I can’t think of it at the moment, but oh my lord, I have experienced so much frustration in my life because of it.

So, to answer the question specifically: first and foremost, trying to find a way to use all of this cool information, these lovely little factoids that you've collected, regardless of how relevant or important they actually are, is the number one mistake.

Second to that: not assessing how much a research topic actually has value in their genre and how much those genre-specific readers are going to care about it is another mistake that I commonly see. For example, while blood-typing or fingerprints might be fascinating in a medical drama or a police procedural, in contemporary romance, the likelihood of it not seeming weird, or boring, or unnecessary is pretty slim. So, for example, historical romance readers want all of the clothing details. They want to hear about the corsets and the feathers and the coaches and all of these things. However, in sci-fi, readers want to go deep into tech and aliens and different planets. But both of those special interests and spaces for these details will lose your readers in most gritty thrillers. So, knowing what people want you to go into detail about, or would be accepting of you going into detail about, is important.

The third mistake that I commonly see is… I believe it’s a mistake when authors don’t consider removing the mention of the things being researched completely as an option. Sometimes—and probably more often than new authors think—when your options are either going to be: provide a fair bit of detail and description to make something make sense or remove it, the right option might be just to take it out completely rather than putting in half a page to explain your choice to include it or exactly how you did.

The fourth mistake is making too many excuses for themselves and the research that they're doing. For example, if your climax hinges on your protagonist using binoculars to see something, then you really need to set your story in a time (or at least a technology level) that has already invented binoculars—and also had them around long enough that your protagonist, in whatever situation they're in, has access to them. So, it’s not like this obscure thing that five people have a pair of. Saying, "Oh, it's only 50 years before the invention of binoculars. It's close enough," isn't going to cut it with your readers. And especially in historical fiction, your readers are history buffs. You can't really get around that. And using the hat pin craze, 40 years early, is not going to cut it with your readers, kind of thing. Again, just consider what your genre is into, what they are open to, and respect your readers in that regard, I think is what I want to say here.

Fifth, and the mistake that I'm most guilty of on this point, is getting off topic by chasing down rabbit holes and side topics and using that as an excuse to let my forward momentum in editing completely drop off. And I've wasted a whole day. So not a mistake on the story front, but definitely on the ‘trying to get things done’ front.

Lastly, be careful about your character voice and tone when adjusting things based on your research. If you aren't careful about this, you can end up with, for example, like a Cockney cabbie in 19th century London sounding like an astrophysicist, which does not make sense. But he mentioned something about a supernova, and now you need to explain what that is to your reader through him, and that doesn't make sense in his voice. So that can be really off-putting and worth bearing in mind.

Agnes: Thank you. I think a lot of what you're talking about is making sure you're respecting the reader and what they're expecting.

Rebecca: And the material that you're writing about, too. You want to respect the topics that you are presenting.

Agnes: And what they're expecting, too. Like, because, you know, I'm not going to care as much about like a multiverse from, because I'm not reading about time, I'm not a big into time travel. Whereas somebody who's reading sci-fi, they're going to be really into wanting to know all the little things about all the different ways the universe can go and consequences.

But anyway, I do need to wrap up. I did want to ask one last question: is it possible to do too much research? Which, you kind of just said something about that. Where's the balance between not doing enough research and getting totally bogged down in it past the point where the time and effort is no longer worth it?

Rebecca: Your genre is going to have some impact on this. Fantasy; probably one end of the spectrum where you have to do a minimal amount. Historical romance, stuff like police procedurals, probably more than any other genre.

But as a general rule of thumb, I recommend a five-minute rule for moments or mentions, for the most part. So, if it's one mention of, oh, you know, they got on their horses and rode to their new house, spend five minutes on how you would attach luggage to a horse. Or one mention of, oh, he ripped her bodice off and they made, you know, passionate love or whatever. Spend five minutes researching whether the dresses of that time and place open to the front to the back. So, five minutes can get you a lot of leeway with your readers in most genres.

If it's a global aspect, so your whole world-building is based on this time or place or culture that you don't belong to, so you need to research, then do as much as you feel you need to without doing so much that that research and those facts overshadow the story that you [a reader] are being told. So do as much as you need to to fill it out and make it vibrant and concrete and all of these things. But if it starts reading like a dissertation on this culture, you've probably gone too far, and you need to dial it back and decide that you've probably done enough there for the moment.

There's a lot of Goldilocks zone in there. But bearing in mind what your priorities are and what your genre priorities are is going to make a big difference.

It shouldn't take you too long to decide if a research topic of a small moment falls into one of these categories that I'll list in a second, all of which are finite and with a Goldilocks zone. So, for most of my readers, I expect these are some great just little things to bear in mind when you're doing these moments of research to keep things productive.

Number one, just scrap the mention because explaining it or getting it right isn't worth it. That is one of the options that your five minutes of research might fall into.

Option two is: you found the right term, wording, or statistic, and you don't need to dwell on it. You've got it right, move on.

Option three is you've gotten stuck on it. And you just need to flag that spot and mull it over before doing another five minutes of research when you circle back around to it because sometimes things just need to simmer.

Option four is doing the research and deciding that this research, this topic, this one spot deserves more in-depth research. In which case you should budget more time to it, more than the five minutes, but not leave it totally open-ended so that you don't end up winding down too many rabbit holes. So, if you decide it needs more than five minutes, that's fine, but tell yourself you have one hour to research this to avoid falling into the whole day wasted like I mentioned earlier that I'm very guilty of myself.

And yeah, pretty much any research that you're doing should take about five minutes and if it doesn't, it'll fall into one of those categories and you can decide where to go from there.

Agnes: Well, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate how you let me pick your brain. I really appreciate it.

Rebecca: Of course!

Next week we will return to plot and character arcs to talk about emotional rise and fall and how that directly translates into pacing, the all-important pacing.

For now, I want to thank everyone following along with this series. You can help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Authors' Alcove Podcast (which I highly recommend) where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series.

Agnes: I can't wait to start talking about pacing. Thank you very much.

Rebecca : Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great, so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more, or visit my website, linked in the description, to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Antagonists & Forces of Antagonism: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 11

Tue, 18 Mar 2025 21:35:41 GMT

Forces of Antagonism: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript...

The idea of the antagonist and protagonist being the same character is a lot trickier than I was able to get into when Agnes surprised me with that topic.

Clarifying definitions: an antagonist is the character or force which directly opposes the protagonist around the global goals and stakes. Their moral alignment or motives play no part in this definition. A villain is a morally corrupt character which demonstrates actions, decisions, or beliefs in opposition to a heroic idea of goodness. A villain can hold any role in the story in relation to the protagonist or antagonist.

For starters, I'm not sure I agree with uses of that terminology as accurate or clear, and may have fallen into the same misuses of terms and concepts in trying to answer on the spot. There is a big difference between the protagonist being an antihero, and the antagonist being the protagonist. Even when the protagonist is morally gray or an antihero of some sort, the antagonist is still whoever is opposing them. For example, if you write a book with a serial killer protagonist, then the straight-arrow detective trying to catch them is the antagonist. In that case, the protagonist is the villain and the antagonist is the hero, but the protagonist is still the protagonist and the antagonist is still the antagonist. You simply chose to flip the script and tell the story through the agency and POV of the villain, which is fine and fun.

In order for the force of antagonism or antagonist to also be the protagonist requires deeply internal genres, where the biggest win/loss goal at stake in internal growth, maturation, disillusionment, or the like, where it really is an aspect of the protagonist's internal self, flaws, trauma, or the like which is the strongest opposing force to their global stakes goals. But even then, I'd encourage writers to also personify that fear, lack of responsibility, or what have you through a secondary character or several as well, otherwise the story may be too lacking in conflict to hold a reader's attention.

Beyond that, in order for the protagonist to also be the antagonist (again, there's a difference between the antagonist and a villain), you would have to play with the protagonist being multiple characters within one, like in the movie Split, in which case I strongly encourage you to check out the next episode which covers sensitivity research and readers .

I apologize for not being more consistent with this terminology while recording; I am more careful when providing developmental feedback, and have more time to craft my answers and thoughts.

Happy editing!

Episode 11 Overview:

Creating & Checking Effective Antagonists

"Do I have a clear and strong antagonist, or force or antagonism? Are they doing what they need to for the story and genre?"

Today, I go over what makes a great antagonist, how to write a compelling villain, and good options for forces of antagonism in genre fiction as we explore crafting unforgettable villains and compelling conflicts in this latest episode of the 52-Week Story Savvy series. Rebecca Hartwell, founder of Hart Bound Editing [ http://hartboundediting.com ], joins aspiring author Agnes Wolfe from Authors’ Alcove [ http://authorsalcove.com ] to break down how to make your characters strong , avoid flat villains, and ensure your antagonist drives the story forward in meaningful ways.

This episode explores how to create a compelling antagonist that truly challenges your protagonist, ensuring organic protagonist growth while strengthening the stakes of your novel. Rebecca shares expert insights on avoiding stereotypical villains, balancing character motivations, and making sure your antagonist’s presence enhances the protagonist’s journey rather than overshadowing it.

This Episode Covers:

What makes a great antagonist and how to avoid common mistakes.
How to craft Protagonist growth that feels organic and earned.
The role of how to write character arcs in strengthening hero-villain dynamics.
Avoiding predictable or cliché antagonists while maintaining reader engagement.
How to balance character flaws and motivations for a well-rounded villain.
Ensuring your antagonist actively opposes the protagonist’s goals to drive the plot.
How to strengthen your plot through strategic villain development.

Whether you're drafting your first fantasy novel or revising your manuscript, these strategies will help you create antagonists that elevate your story and leave a lasting impact on readers.

Recommended Resources:

Authors’ Alcove Membership Site – [ http://authorsalcove.com ]
Book Giveaway – [ http://authorsalcove.org ]

See you next week for episode 12: Plot Hole & Sensitivity Research

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 11 Transcript:

Creating & Checking Effective Antagonists

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 11 of the weekly Story Savvy series where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you have wanted to.

We have covered a bunch of different topics in this series so far, including last week's episode on your protagonist and their character arc and how you can make sure that that is working well. Today we are going to cover the counterbalance to that, making sure that we have a solid antagonist for our protagonist to contend with. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully feel confident identifying your force of antagonism, whether or not it's working well for your story and how you might want to improve it.

Joining me today to ask all of the questions that you have wanted to is my friend and co-host Agnes Wolfe.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi. I'm an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her first middle grade novel later this year and also the host and founder of Authors' Alcove. I'm here today to tackle villains, antagonists, and the whole arena of whatever is opposing our protagonist.

So, to start off, I want to first ask the very obvious question, what quality should a good or great antagonist have?

Rebecca: What makes for a good antagonist or force of antagonism is that they are directly set against the protagonist in some meaningful way and that neither of them can easily get away from that conflict. The first part of that formula easily boils down into three different categories. Option one for that conflict is that the villain has the same goal as the protagonist but in a way where they can't both achieve their goal. So, for example, if they are rivals in a competition and there can only be one winner, that's a great example.

Option two for that conflict is that the two, the protagonist and the antagonist, have directly opposing goals around a set outcome. This could range from the villain and protagonist each wanting the love interest for themselves, so they're rivals in a romance, all the way up to a tyrant wanting to exterminate a whole demographic, and the protagonist wanting to protect those lives and freedoms. So, there's something common at stake, but the protagonist and antagonist want very different outcomes for it.

The important part with both of those options is that if the protagonist wins in their goal, then the antagonist has to lose an equal amount and vice versa. So, it has to be an only-one-can-win situation.

Option three for that conflict is the most nebulous and perhaps difficult to define, where the force of antagonism is something like a natural disaster or a giant shark or an entire social taboo or that sort of thing. So, in this situation, I do recommend showing that large nebulous force of antagonism personified through a singular secondary character. Like someone being a bigot to represent this societal taboo and acting as the voice for that larger force of antagonism. But when it's something like getting stranded on a desert island, which is a solid force of antagonism, then the trick is simply to use the challenges and stakes as the opposition to the protagonist's goals, such as surviving or leaving.

So as the force of antagonism becomes this sort of thing that you can't really name or put a face on, then the goal becomes for the protagonist to survive and get away from it and triumph over the unexpected blows that come in from the force of antagonism, whether or not that force is… what’s the word I’m looking for… malicious in directly targeting the protagonist.

The other quality that the antagonist or the villain really has to have to work as such is that the protagonist and antagonist need to be inescapable to each other. So, you as the author need to build in some compelling reasons why the protagonist is forced to continue interacting with and/or contending with the force of antagonism and why that is unavoidable in the long run.

Bonus points on this—not a requirement, but bonus points—if the global inciting incident, so whatever sets off this whole story, comes directly from the villain in genres that expect that, like action adventure and thriller.

Agnes: I know, probably because I am a fantasy reader and fantasy writer, I often think of—when I think of the antagonist—I think of the villain. Like, you know, Sauron in Lord of the Rings, or Amarantha from ACOTAR, or being a Potterhead, of course, Voldemort. So, I think it's important to first—let's just define what is an antagonist and how much flexibility do we have when creating our antagonist?

Rebecca: Lots. I just touched on some of that, like it can be anything from getting stuck on a desert island to a rival lover. In fact, this is a great place to brainstorm more innovative options for your story than perhaps first come to mind.

Well-meaning rivals, nosy busybodies, environmental factors, full-blown monsters, and so many other archetypes can be great primary *antagonists beyond that, you know, the evil guy in the castle kind of villain. As long as they meet the qualities that I just listed a few moments ago and fit into your story, it does not have to be a classic villain.

As to what really sets the antagonist apart from other antagonistic characters, there are a few aspects to consider here: First, like we've discussed with the protagonist in the last episode, the primary antagonist is going to be the one who has the most agency in opposing the hero or creating difficulties more than the other characters who might be the antagonist.

So, is the person you want to be the primary antagonist the one making the most decisions that most hurt the hero or make things harder for them? Second in that consideration, do they have a strong enough presence in the story that they are a noticeable force of momentum and conflict, pushing that protagonist either forward or back, however they are aligned in that story?

Third in that consideration: are they the direct force or avatar (so, personified character), which the protagonist must overcome in the climax or leading up to it in some genres like romance? So, for example, if you were writing, say, a young adult performance plot story, then the other dancer or musician that the protagonist is trying to beat out to win the audition or the contest probably isn't evil. Because they're a teenager and teenagers are very rarely evil. And they just have the same goal as the protagonist. So they're not going to be an evil villain or even necessarily a bad person.

But the very fact that they are in a position where, at every turn, they are what is opposing and pushing the protagonist to better themselves and to push themselves, and introducing hurdles like, for example, booking the rehearsal space when the hero needs it or bribing the judges or something like that, then that character is going to be the antagonist because it is that rival which the protagonist has their direct confrontation with at the climax, at that performance, and that is what is going to mark them.

And you can try to tell your readers that someone else is the villain, but it's always going to come down to whoever is actually acting and performing that role is who the antagonist is perceived to be.

Agnes: You know, actually, one of my favorites—I don't know if it’d be considered a trope or whatever—that I actually really enjoy, especially when it's not fantasy (because you don't see this much in fantasy… well, I guess you do a little bit,) but when the protagonist is actually the antagonist. I love that, like in Death of a Salesman. And you do see it to a smaller degree in fantasy. But I love it when, like, the main antagonist is also the protagonist. That's one of my favorites.

Rebecca: Very fun to play with that.

Agnes: But my question actually is, how is creating a classic villain different from the antagonist?

Rebecca: Primarily, this is where you are most likely to fall into cliché and overdone tropes.

So, for example, the dark gentleman, you know, twirling his evil mustache, or the dangerously attractive and independent femme fatale are all very much tropes of that personified villain. So, as with any trope or cliché, there's a line to walk between delivering what people love to hate—especially in the villain, I can think of so many villains that people talk about just loving to hate—without falling into either harmful or derogatory stereotypes about that kind of person, or just, you know, seeming like you're plagiarizing someone else's villain idea.

So, a little bit of advice there would be, you still want to twist or innovate some layer of those expectations. We've talked about iterative brainstorming before, so that can be a tool that you can use there. For example, that twist might be in the villain's relationship with the protagonist, or it might be in their goals, or how they go about pursuing their evil plan or the like. But with forces of antagonism, you have to give that a lot less thought. But when you're creating a VILLAIN villain, an actual person who is the villain, then you need to do more work to make sure that it is interesting and unique. And there are solid reasons behind what they're doing.

Agnes : So, you know, I had mentioned that one of my favorite tropes is when the protagonist is the antagonist. And you see that to a lesser degree in fantasy, because usually they're not the main antagonist.

So, my question is, should I generally have just one main antagonist?

Rebecca: It depends, like you were just saying, largely on your genre and subgenre and tropes. So, for example, like I'd mentioned earlier, you might have a force of antagonism, which is super nebulous, like a social bigotry or climate situation or that sort of thing. But in all other circumstances, it can be very helpful to have one primary antagonist, which represents the collective aspects of whatever the secondary villains might have or be up to.

It will help with investment, as readers are more likely to latch on to seeing how this one nasty person gets their comeuppance than how a vague group or, you know, climate situation might lose to the protagonist in some less cathartic way. It can also help a lot with pacing, as you can use upcoming anticipated encounters with that one primary antagonist to pull their interest forward deeper into the story.

It can also help with a lot of theme and message delivery, if you can really show the two sides of your double factor problem, like we had talked about back in episode 10, personified and shown through your antagonist on one side (hopefully, probably the wrong side), and then your protagonist (hopefully, probably on the right side) of that, and then show their direct conflict to illustrate that issue.

Worth noting here is that in stories with nebulous forces of antagonism, that double factor problem is more likely to be about how it's best to try to escape or how it's best to try to survive or stay secret or pursue your goals within that nebulous force of antagonism. Rather than with that direct approach of having a personified antagonist and protagonist going at it as people.

Agnes: So, I know one of the main goals of an antagonist is to move the story forward, to move the protagonist either forward or backward. So how do we know if the external forces, particularly the antagonist, are impacting the main character's choice, and we're doing an effective job of pushing the story forward and affecting our protagonist?

Rebecca: I think I'll answer by expanding on what I'd said earlier about making sure that the protagonist can't escape that antagonist and/or the other way around. Making sure that they're stuck together. So, try asking yourself: how is that forced proximity causing friction? Why—how do I want to put this—what tensions and what arguments and what conflicts of interest are coming up because these two people are forced to interact with each other?

You can also ask yourself: What hurdles are ending up in the protagonist's path because the antagonist is chasing their own goals or chasing the same goals? How is the protagonist getting in the antagonist's way? And what is the antagonist doing to get them back out of their way so that they can get what they want and what they need? And then, how are you making sure that when they come into conflict, that matters. And that it is making changes and forcing the protagonist to act.

I will say that the antagonist doesn’t have to oppose the protagonist—they can also try to recruit them. So, for example, if your protagonist is, let's say, trying to win an election and the antagonist is trying to win the same election, then maybe the antagonist, rather than just smear campaigning your protagonist, tries to recruit them—like, "Hey, well, why don’t you run as my VP? And then you can still have what you want, and I can get what I want."

So, it doesn’t have to be conflict, but it definitely has to have some form of trying to get the protagonist off of their goals, off of their path.

So, these are just some of the ways to make sure that your antagonist is helping push the story forward. But I don’t think that this is something that's worth stressing over, especially in the self-editing phase. And it definitely doesn’t need to be present in every scene, but definitely check a couple of the places where you think that that matters the most in the story.

Agnes: I know, especially in middle-grade fantasy, but fantasy in general, our villains are often less sympathetic than, like, in other genres. So, what are some pros and cons to making a villain sympathetic as opposed to a truly villainous character?

Rebecca: So, on the pros side, it can really help to avoid falling into too much of a clichéd trope if they are very humanized and very sympathetic. It can make the villain more interesting, which is usually a good thing. And can also make the reader think a lot more deeply about the villain’s side on whatever the issue is of the double-factor problem, if you're using that as a means to illuminate your message or theme.

On the cons side, for making them very sympathetic, it can muddy or completely undermine your theme or message or direction, and more if the reader ends up connecting with the antagonist (or even just finding them far more interesting) than the protagonist.

And what you were talking about earlier, where you love the trope where the protagonist is the antagonist, this can not matter; this can be exactly what you're going for. And in fact, if you want your antagonist [correction: villain] to be the protagonist, this is how you do it. You make them so humanized, you make them so… what was the word you used? Just like understandable and sympathetic and all that kind of stuff. It can be tricky if you're not going that way—if you want to actually have a force against your protagonist—it can be tricky to walk that line between avoiding overblown and two-dimensional antagonists without making them too likable or having that overshadow the protagonist too much. But just being cognizant of that and making sure that their cruelty or other negative traits seem very justified to them, without excusing it too much to the reader, is a nice wide middle ground that I think most authors can probably hit without too much worry about it.

Agnes: So, I’m thinking specifically, especially in a series where you’re going across a time span.

So, my main villain, if people knew his whole backstory, they would be a lot more sympathetic, but I also do not want to share too much because I don’t want to share too much backstory too early. So, my question is, how should we deal with antagonist motivation across a series as opposed to the first book?

Rebecca: Yeah, this depends heavily on each individual story, so I don’t really have a blanket answer to offer on this one. The most that I can suggest is that it might help you to look at the levels of depth as much as anything.

So, for example, rather than wondering whether to tell the reader about how a villain grew up poor or not mention that at all, consider clearly establishing that the villain’s motives are the soul-selling, deal-with-the-devil level of accumulating wealth with maybe one mention that they want it so much because at one point they had nothing.

And that’s like the surface level of that backstory. You can just start there and then drip feed details about what that having nothing looked like for them and how that got to their desire for wealth little by little over that series.

The one other consideration there specifically that might universally apply is to keep a careful record of your motives and backstory, especially when you're going to spread it out like that and drip feed it in. So that you can make sure that you are being consistent, which in itself is kind of a reason to be vague early on and just give the bare minimum so that you have more flexibility for how you want to fill in those details once things are more fleshed out and you perhaps have a better feeling for where you want to go.

So, specific to your concerns, I think that it’s generally a good idea to know more about your characters, including the antagonist, than you tell the reader. As that can really help to let those subtleties come through in subtext, which is ideal.

However, I do warn you to be cautious about intentionally withholding information. The balance I try to strike in my own work, and have helped some clients to get into, is that the setup naturally occurs to mention some part of the backstory. So, it would naturally come up in conversation or naturally come up when introductions are being made, something like that, and then to do so succinctly in that moment.

But in that, avoid the other extreme of intentionally withholding too much, so the opportunity arises and you don’t use it, but balancing that against, again, that other extreme of shoehorning in that info because you came up with it and you want to present it to your reader when it’s not actually needed or relevant or natural to present.

Is that helpful? Does that answer your question?

Agnes: Yes. So, my next question is, when we think of certain genres, we definitely think of certain types of antagonists and those sorts of things. You're going to think of a different type of villain when you're thinking of middle grade as opposed to romantasy, which is totally different. So that leads me to this question: Does genre affect what kind of antagonists we should use, and how do we know what kind of antagonist to use?

Rebecca: Yes, it should have a major impact on what kind of antagonist you use. So, I've touched on this a little bit already, but genre does have a big influence, and you should be researching what kind of antagonist or force of antagonism is expected or could work, possibly.

For example, in romance, an overbearing older relative could work, a rival could work, a rival for affection with the other person, like I mentioned earlier. These are all appropriate villains for romance.

In horror, a giant interdimensional monster could be the perfect villain. However, if you tried to swap those, you'd likely either change your genre by doing so or deeply confuse and disappoint your readers, or all of the above, because a giant interdimensional monster is not an appropriate villain for contemporary romance or historical romance or whatever's there.

So, for middle-grade fantasy, a classic personified villain is a perfect choice because it is well established, it is expected in the genre, and there's space to still innovate with that.

It's not the only choice that you can make there, and I do appreciate how you [Agnes] managed to give your personified villain some unique twists and slowly reveal those over the story to keep it from being too clichéd.

Agnes: So, I heard once that the villain needs to believe that they are the hero of their own story. First off, I want to know if you agree with that, and second, how else could I know my villain is compelling?

Rebecca: If that mindset is helpful to you or any of our listeners in giving your antagonist dimensionality—making them more than two-dimensional—then that’s great. However, I don’t think that that should be considered a rule by any stretch.

Not everyone is motivated by a hero complex, and that applies to villains too. Desperation, the need for validation or approval, wanting to improve the lives of their family, achieving success or accolades, or a ton of other non-heroic things are great motivators as well. The important thing is just that the antagonist—assuming it's a personified avatar—has a solid, clear motive and/or goal, whether that’s seeing themselves as a hero or not. It can be whatever you need it to be. So, thinking that the villain has to see themselves as a protagonist, as a hero, is a mistake, but they do need to have some kind of driving motive.

Agnes: So, I know we need to wrap up, but I did want to ask one last question. What are some of the biggest mistakes that you have seen as an editor, as a writer is developing an antagonist?

Rebecca: I think we've already touched on this a lot. Making them too flat or too cliché or too over the top and overblown. Failing to give them a real motive or goal, like I was just talking about, or failing to build in solid enough reasons that the protagonist and antagonist are forced to contend and reckon with each other.

The last common-ish mistake that I've seen my clients make in their work is simply a lack of antagonism. Tension and conflict are a huge part of making any story interesting at whatever level or intensity is appropriate to that genre.

In all of the books that I can think of right now that had the biggest issues with a lack of momentum and pacing, it was always largely due to a solid lack of force of antagonism. Or that the antagonist was too far away and too theoretical, rather than actually having any tangible impact on the story at all, or at least until it was too late to really feel their presence and feel that antagonism and that driving momentum.

Agnes: Well, thank you so much for answering all those questions. I really appreciate all that you share. I really appreciate this opportunity as well.

Rebecca: Of course! Next week, we will revisit the topic of research—nobody groan too hard—but this time on the micro scale. So, for specific moments or elements within our stories, not genre research like we've talked about before.

For now, I would like to thank everyone for following along with this series. You can all really help us out by liking and subscribing to the Hart Bound Editing podcast and the Authors' Alcove podcast, where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series.

Agnes: I can't wait to talk with you again next week.

Rebecca: Bye.

Rebecca: Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great, so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more or visit my website linked in the description to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!

Character Arcs & Protagonist Transformations: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 10

Tue, 11 Mar 2025 01:17:24 GMT

Character Arcs & Protagonist Transformations After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript...

Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey is what I was trying to reference in this episode, but crossed a wire between the original and Shawn Coyne's interpretation of that, which he calls the Heroic Journey . Both are what I would consider staple concepts for fiction writers, but both of those authors come with some personality caveats or warnings. Just to add it to the mix, The Heroine's Journey by Gail Carriger is a third perspective on this topic, and one I thoroughly enjoyed reading.

Happy editing!

Episode 10 Overview:

Character Arcs & Protagonist Transformations

"Does my protagonist change meaningfully through their character arc? Why is that important, and what are common pitfalls?"

Today, Rebecca teaches how to write an interesting protagonist and depict protagonist growth, as we continue our self-editing series on what makes a good writer great! She does an excellent job of revealing how to make your protagonist’s growth feel authentic in this latest episode of the 52-Week Story Savvy series. Rebecca Hartwell, founder of Hart Bound Editing, joins aspiring author Agnes Wolfe from Authors’ Alcove to discuss key storytelling techniques, character development essentials, and common pitfalls, offering expert insights on how to make your story impactful and unforgettable.

This episode explores how to avoid weak character arcs, ensure organic growth, and prevent secondary characters or villains from overshadowing your protagonist. Rebecca shares expert insights on crafting realistic internal transformation, balancing prophecy with character agency, and avoiding the dreaded “plot armor.”

This Episode Covers:

What Are Common Mistakes in Character Arcs?
How Can We Tell if the Protagonist Has Grown Enough?
How Do We Show That Character Growth Is Earned?
How Do We Avoid Rushed or Forced Character Growth?
What if a Secondary Character’s Arc Overshadows the Protagonist?
How Can We Avoid Making Things Too Easy for the Protagonist?
How Do We Prevent a Character Arc from Feeling Formulaic?
How Do We Balance Prophecy and Character Growth?

Whether you’re in the early brainstorming stages or deep in revisions, these tips will help you craft a protagonist that feels real, relatable, and unforgettable.

Recommended Resources:

Story Grid – [ https://storygrid.com ]
Authors’ Alcove Membership Site – [ http://authorsalcove.com ]
Book Giveaway – [ http://authorsalcove.org ]

See you next week for episode 11: Creating an Effective Antagonist

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 10 Transcript:

Character Arcs & Protagonist Transformations

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is Episode 10 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great, as an aspiring author asks me, a developmental editor, all of the questions that you've wanted to.

We have covered a bunch of topics in this series so far, including last week's episode on delivering payoff and catharsis in the global climax and resolution of a story.

Today, we are going to really focus on character over plot for the first time by itself and how to create strong character change arcs for them through the story. By the end of this episode, the hope is that you will feel confident in identifying what sort of arc you want for your main character and how to make sure that it works well for your readers.

Joining me today to ask all of the questions that you've wanted to is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolfe.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi, I am an aspiring fantasy author, Agnes Wolfe, who hopes to release her first middle-grade fantasy later this year and also host and founder of Authors' Alcove. I'm here today to dive into defining or refining better character arcs for our protagonists.

All right, so let's start off. I'm going to start off with, I think, a big question: What is the biggest blind spot or mistake that you see as an editor that writers have when creating their character arcs?

Rebecca: Mostly that they don't go deep enough, and this can appear in a couple of different ways.

So, one way that I see authors make this mistake is that they take the concept of a character arc far too surface-level. Like the change arc is in the protagonist's situation, or title, or the tools that they have, and not a change arc around who they are as a person, or their mindset or worldview around the core issue of that story.

The other way that I see this mistake come up is that the author creates the character as they want that protagonist to be right off the bat and then faces resistance as the author writing the story to give them a meaningful arc from that point.

So, to fix it from that perspective, I often end up giving feedback that the author can either start off their protagonist in a worse-off position so that the place where they want the protagonist to be is the end goal, and you have that change arc to get there, or simply push their imagination to see: "All right, well, this is where I'm starting the character. How could I actually make it even better? How can I let them grow into more of who I want them to be over the span of that story?"

Agnes: So how do we know if our main character has grown enough through their crisis for it to pay off in the climax, like we talked about in the last episode?

Rebecca: Yes, so we did go over that a little bit in Episode 9, so if people are still wondering about that, I suggest you go back and listen to that again.

There's a question that you can ask yourself here, which is: "Could the protagonist function the same way in the climax if they were dropped into it as their Chapter 1 selves?" Which I talked about this in the last episode.

If the answer is no, they would not survive that—if the climax would go very differently because they hadn't been through that story yet, if they hadn't been pushed to change yet—then you probably have a meaningful arc change, and you're fine.

If the climax would largely go the same way, if that wouldn't make a huge difference to the story, or if they could cope with it about as well as they do having gone through the story as they would in Chapter 1, then you may have not forced them to change enough or gone through enough of a journey for them.

Agnes: So how can I help my reader see that the growth in my protagonist is earned?

Rebecca: Yeah, so the last question and answer pretty much cover this, but again, I will add on to that.

What does the Dark Night for your protagonist look like? If you're familiar with—I think it's Campbell's theory of the Heroic Journey—then the Dark Night is this part, usually in the early second half of a story, where the character kind of has to reckon with the mistakes that they've been making or their flaws. They have to do some introspection and come to their better selves through that process. So, what does your Dark Night look like? What mistakes did your protagonist make? What bridges did they burn, or what wrong person did they trust in? To answer all of this, ideally, what led to their global crisis? And then from there, have they since owned up to that mistake, or made amends, or fixed their mindset around that thing, whatever is applicable to their situation in their arc? And then from there, you can kind of gauge, depending on your answers, if they've earned it then they made a mistake and they made amends for it, or whatever that calculation is for you.

If they made a sacrifice in doing so, that can be another level of earning that. And that sacrifice—the price of that sacrifice—can be as little as humility and shame or hurting one's own pride, as you have to do to make apologies, that sort of stuff.

Cognitive dissonance can be used if you have really low stakes, but if it's higher stakes, it needs to actually be like, "Oh, I'm giving away a lot of my wealth," or "I'm sacrificing my own safety," that sort of thing. If those different aspects are in the mix, then it's very likely that the reader will feel that the change was earned.

The clearest example of this is in romance, where these elements—sorry, these ingredients in the formula—are very much core conventions of the genre. The global crisis is the breakup between the lovers, their character arc is to earn their happily ever after by realizing that they were wrong to do that breakup or whatever came between them. And the climax example of their pivotal choice is to try to make things right with the other lover in the grand gesture or proof of love, which should contain some form of sacrifice or basically just giving of oneself without expecting to get anything in return so that it's selfless.

Other genres are less picky about exactly what character arc is expected or how to earn it, but it's worth thinking about in regards to your comp books—so the books similar to yours that you're reading and studying (hopefully doing this throughout the process or building up to it) —and in looking at that, consider how you can both nail a beloved trope within your genre as well as make it a little bit fresh and unique to your protagonist and your story.

Agnes: So, I know when I did my first round of edits, one thing that I realized is that my main character's growth was a little bit too rushed.

How can I make sure that my protagonist's growth isn't rushed or forced? And if we recognize in our own writing that it does seem like one of those things, what are tips to help it seem more organic?

Rebecca: So, I'll start off by saying that this is a pretty common thing that I see, with (particularly newer) authors, and it's something that practice will help perfect.

But in regards to how you can adjust that, or if you know that it's an issue how you can see where and how to fix that, try asking yourself: In what moments in the story, or interactions between the protagonist and other characters, could you tweak or add little things in to explain a more gradual transition of that change?

So, to break this process down a little bit further, I recommend that you start out by naming: The starting point for that character arc. The lowest point that forces them to see how they need to change like I just talked about with the Dark Night, that is often the Dark Night. And then the end point for that character arc that you're aiming to get them to by the end of the story, or the climax, or wherever that really needs to paid off. The pinnacle of it.

The next step after that would be to plan out a number of progressive escalations between those three markers. So, between starting and middle and between middle and end. That's either going to be progressively getting worse, or doubling down on the flaw, whatever that negative aspect of the character arc is, ideally that’s the arc between the beginning and middle), or progressively getting better (so, changing and learning to be their better selves, ideally between the midpoint or that Dark Night and their ending point for their arc).

I personally suggest a minimum of three connecting dots between those markers. But if you really want to go whole hog with this, then you can try to find a little progressive moment in every single chapter. That's very much up to you. But I don't think you should obsess on this to the point of getting overwhelmed. So, three connecting dots between the major moments is a good starting point.

Once you have those progressive escalations planned out, the first point that I want to make in how you approach this is: the point of building it is that they are progressive escalations so that you can do it in a natural, sort of like, step-by-step. If you think about it like a staircase, you walk up each step to get to the next landing rather than jumping. Some people do that, but for the purposes of the story, try to take it up one step at a time to get your readers to follow this journey and make it feel natural and gradual in this buildup over time.

The second point I want to make here is that it doesn't have to be a straight line in either direction. It doesn't have to be walking right up that staircase or walking right down it if it's a negative progression. The phrase two steps forward, one step back is ideal, actually, for maximum effect so that you can show that it's very human. It's very natural to have some progress and then have a setback, or to have some setbacks and a little bit of progress. So, bearing that in mind is definitely going to be helpful.

The third point here is: make sure that you are showing rewards or costs for each of these moments for the protagonist, these progressive moments in their arc. It can be subtle. It can be so subtle in the small moments. But you do want it to be a little more noticeable or overt in the big moments.

This can get tricky and vary widely from book to book, but as a very general rule of thumb: if the protagonist makes a positive step on their arc (so moving in the direction you want them to go towards that end point), then you want to reward them for it.

And again, this can be anything like, just a little bit of pride, or a little extra resource, or calmness, or connection, or whatever positive trait you can show that oh, well, they chose to—going back to an example I used in an earlier episode: If they choose to call out their drunk uncle instead of staying quiet and sacrificing their agency in that moment, then they get rewarded by—let’s say—a cousin just saying: "Oh, thank you so much for doing that. I hate having to deal with him, and I'm so glad someone called him out." That's a reward.

On the other side of that, when your protagonist makes a negative step—so doubling down on their flaw or choosing wrong rather than choosing right in a direction that would make them a better person—you want to punish them in some small way. Again, cognitive dissonance, shame, loss of an ally, whatever that happens to be and fits for your story.

But I do want to add the caveat that you can play with this. This is a rule, and this is a rule that I think can be broken very, very effectively. If you want your protagonist to go down a darker path, if you want them to have a really dark double-down on their worst traits before they get better, then rewarding them for those bad choices, that’s going to push them down that line. And that can be used really effectively and in really fun ways, as long as you're aware of it and you understand that the reader is going to subconsciously pick up on: "Oh, this behavior is being rewarded," and possibly misunderstand things around that if it's behavior that you don't actually want to be rewarded. I hope that makes sense.

Agnes: Yeah. And I think that breaking that rule is better for adult audiences rather than my middle-grade work, where middle-grade really needs that consequence because they're still learning the consequences of life. So, yeah, I think that was very interesting. Thank you for sharing that.

So, I know this is something that I struggle with a little bit, is: what happens if a secondary character's arc or the villain's arc is stronger than the protagonist’s and overshadows the character arc of our main protagonist?

Rebecca: Yes! This was definitely something that we talked about a lot in the developmental edit that I did on your book. So, happy to kind of share this with the audience at this point.

As I've said before, your protagonist isn’t going to come across as the protagonist if they’re being overshadowed.

This will likely leave readers feeling like the story is poorly written, or like they don’t like the protagonist (which can be a big problem for people just liking or connecting with the book), or like they never really figured out what the story was actually trying to be about beneath the surface.

So, there are three basic solutions to this issue of a secondary character overshadowing the protagonist:

The first is: you can make your protagonist's change arc stronger and deeper until it has gotten bigger and now overshadows that other secondary character one that you’re concerned about. So that’s option 1.

Option 2 is: you can take that character arc that’s so strong and so interesting away from that secondary character and instead put it onto your protagonist. Basically, take those actions, and that internal journey, and changing who in the story has those thoughts, and does those actions, and goes on that journey into your protagonist.

Option 3 is: make that secondary character your protagonist. This can definitely be the most daunting option, especially if you’re writing a story where the POV matters and you generally want to be in your protagonist's POV. But it can absolutely be the difference between a story being mediocre and being a best-selling masterwork. That line can be deciding, “Oh, this character is actually the protagonist. I'm going to change the whole story around that to show that this is actually where the story is anchored.”

Agnes: I think that's definitely something that I had to think about when writing mine because I had two main protagonists, and—I know this sounds weird—but I actually prefer my secondary protagonist. And so, he's going to have quite the story arc in the second book, but I still have to make sure that she still carries it in both books as well because I do want a female main protagonist. So that has actually been a struggle of mine. And maybe, partly, I think sometimes it's because I identify with men more. I've always identified with men more, and boys. I had all male cousins, except for one female cousin. I have three brothers. So, for me, I always—growing up, I struggled with female friendships. And so for me, I do identify a little bit more with the male, even though I am a female.

Rebecca: I actually identify with that so much. And in my own work, that's part of why I write dual POV, is I want to be in my main male character's head half the time. So, I totally hear you.

Agnes: That’s interesting. Anyway, back to the questions.

This is something I've especially seen in middle-grade writing, but I feel like one of the things that I often see mocked about some popular works, like, even Harry Potter, is that things are too convenient for the main character. And I think this is probably mostly more so for middle grade, but I do also see it in, like, you know, maybe ACOTAR might have some of this. But yeah, I was looking at that just a second ago. So, what are some questions we can ask to make sure that we don’t fall into this pitfall of making things too convenient?

Rebecca : Sure!

So, plot armor, as I’ve seen that called, or generally making things too easy or too lucky, can definitely be overused. And I think part of why that comes up most in middle grade and YA is because those are the genres where you have the most leeway to use that. Where that is perhaps expected to some extent, and people will be given an inch and take a mile, so to speak.

So, let’s see. The issue with this problem, or this common complaint, has several different aspects, that I’ll try to go into here.

First: Readers want to see how the protagonist is going to deal with knotty situations, or hurdles, or difficult situations. And the reader can feel cheated when those situations just keep getting dodged or just happen to work out.

Second: We all know inherently that meaningful internal change often comes from adversity. So, tension, and conflict, and overcoming hurdles. Trying to force a character arc that’s lacking meaningful tension and conflict can make that feel unearned, which we talked about earlier in this episode.

Third, too much luck or convenience can make the author’s choices too present or noticeable in the story. Like I’d given you feedback on in your story with your protagonist, it can feel like the author is flinching away from actually bumping their characters up against anything meaningful.

But along with goals, tension and conflict are the primary driving factors with many, many stories. With most of them, I would say. So, too much luck and convenience can seriously hurt that momentum.

So, going off of that, I will give you a short list of questions that you can hopefully ask yourself to check if this is an issue in your work, and hopefully fix it.

Number one, at the global level, so looking at the full story together, where does your brain automatically go when you think about spots where things might be too convenient? And this is just a gut check, basically.

Second, ask yourself the same question about where do you just notice these issues at the sequence level. So that’s any set of scenes that accomplish one thing, at the act level, at the individual chapter level, whatever you want to do. Just jot these down. Make a list of where you think these things are happening.

Then, look at each moment that you have on your list here, and ask yourself: How badly could that moment could possibly have gone within your established worldbuilding. For example, let’s say in the moment you are looking at, your protagonist is shunned out of their village for something. But a kind passerby, who just happens to be wandering by and sees them, offers that this protagonist can come and live with them instead. Perhaps the worst possible way that that could go instead when you’re doing this brainstorming is that the protagonist gets caught in a storm outside overnight, and dies in the cold from exposure. Or perhaps the person who’s home they end up going to isa serial killer, or something awful like that.

So, now that you have these two extremes: you have too convenient and you have the story ends here. Now, like we’ve talked about before in connecting the dots in the character arc, what you want to do now is brainstorm 3 to let’s say 10-ish (this is not important) levels of “badness” between ‘too convenient’ and ‘the story ends here’ that could hit different levels so that you have options across a spectrum here, basically.

So, from that list of best to worst, then pick one that is both appropriate to your genre, you’re your audience, and fits the kind of story that you’re writing ideally won’t require you to rewrite more of the story than you’re willing to at that point

So, for example, in the same scenario that we were just talking about, perhaps the protagonist, instead of immediately getting into someone's perfectly nice guest bedroom, they have to wander alone for a day or two, getting dirty, and hungry, and sore before a gruff (not friendly) passerby takes begrudging pity on them and puts them up in the barn rather than a fluffy bed in the house like you'd originally written.

Basically, things don’t have to go badly and stay bad to fix these too much convenience issues and luck issues. But replacing that convenience with just a little bit more desperation and need and lessening that luck by degrees can do wonders for your reader investment and your momentum.

Agnes: So, what are some ways we can be sure that the character growth arc doesn’t appear to be formulaic? Especially because I know a lot of fantasy writers follow the traditional Hero’s Journey.

Rebecca: Well, first of all—and I've said this before, I’ll say it again—formulaic isn’t necessarily as bad of a thing as many authors seem to think. Especially as a newer author, and especially in genre fiction, those clichés, and tropes, and formulas are what makes it that genre. And people go looking for those specific genres and those specific sub-genres because they want to consume more of that formula.

The best metaphor I’ve found for this is to think about your favorite food. Let’s say it’s chicken quesadillas. Just because there’s a certain formula that makes a dish a chicken quesadilla doesn’t mean you aren’t potentially going to spend your entire life loving and repeatedly consuming chicken quesadillas. Because you like it. And that formula is why you like it. So, thinking about that in fiction can be helpful and reassuring, hopefully.

Moving on from that, I’ll say that this is another reason you need to know your genre well. And to know when you are or aren’t being formulaic. And ideally, if you really want to go deep with your research, what aspects are tropes, and conventions, or expectations of the genre, and what aspects are just overdone?

This can be tricky, so again, don’t overstress on this. But to answer the question specifically, so, how do you avoid being formulaic? You do this by iteratively brainstorming. I've mentioned this process before, but it’s a great skill to build in yourself for just about everything around self-editing.

So, you do this by—you start writing down the first idea that you have. Or in this case, if you’re self-editing, the current aspect of a character arc that you’re worried about being too formulaic. You just write that down. And then without putting in too much thought—this should be a ‘get things flowing’ exercise—bang out 10 to 50 (however many you want to do) further ideas that might work. If one idea seems particularly awesome, if you write something where you’re like “ooh, I’m so proud of that,” then absolutely just keep iterating on that and see how many different versions of it you can come up with until that juice runs out. Then go back to your basic list.

Once you have that list, step away from it for a little bit. Be that minutes, or weeks, or whatever time you think is going to be most helpful to you or fits the space you have to work on this. And when you come back to it with slightly fresher eyes, pick a favorite, and refine that until it works. Basically, the first ideas are almost always going to be more formulaic and unoriginal than the tenth or thirty-fourth that you have. Because that’s your subconscious is just going: "Oh, well, I’ve seen this done before. I’ll just slap that in there." But if you keep going down that chain, your own creativity and your uniqueness is far more likely to come through. So, just getting further down that brainstorming list often does the trick to get you out of that formulaic space.

Agnes: So, I know we need to wrap up here, but I did want to ask one last question.

I know in my own book, it has a prophecy. How can we be sure that we show a character growth in our protagonist rather than just fulfilling some sort of destiny they have?

Rebecca: Let’s see. I think I’d suggest addressing this in one of two ways.

The first option is to have the prophecy be about who that character will become by the end. And then start their arc at the beginning of the book as a version of themselves that still needs to change, and grow, and learn into the version that the prophecy is about.

The second option there is to keep the prophecy vague enough that it doesn’t constrict that character arc too much. Or so that you can twist it. And this is general advice about using prophecies as you’ve hopefully seen in movies, TV shows, and books over so many different examples.

I have personally used prophecies in my own books, and I have had so much fun using twist wording or homophonic names that sound like other words to keep my characters off balance about what those prophecies are going to be about and how they’re going to come true which prevents those characters from then consciously changing themselves just to fit the expectations of the prophecy.

So, it's very much something that you can play with.

Rebecca: So, I would love to ask you at this point: having gone through all of your developmental feedback on this—like we’d gone over in the bonus episode I posted a couple of days ago—how are you feeling about your primary protagonist, so, we’ll say Emilia’s, character arc across this first book?

Agnes: That has actually been the biggest thing I know I struggle with. I know what I want her character arc to be. I’m just not sure I’m actually portraying it the way that I want it to be. So that’s essentially where I am right now, is making sure that my vision of her character arc is actually coming across. And I think, for me, a lot of it was the point of view. That’s probably 95% of my problem right now.

Rebecca: Yes! And I’m glad you mentioned that because we’ll mention that in the podcast here, of being inside a character’s head is going to help a lot with delivering their arc.

Agnes: Anyway, I just want to thank you so much for your insight. It has helped me so much. I really appreciate it.

Rebecca: You’re very welcome!

Next week, we will go over: What makes for a good antagonist, so the opposite of your protagonist here. Or not necessarily a personified antagonist, maybe a force of antagonism. We will go into details around that, and how those need to connect with and contrast the protagonist’s arc.

For now, I would really like to thank everyone following along with this Story Savvy series. You can really help us out by liking and subscribing to The Hart Bound Editing Podcast and The Authors’ Alcove Podcast where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series.

Agnes: I can’t wait to chat with you again next week! Bye!

Rebecca: Thank you so much for listening to The Hart Bound Editing Podcast! I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more, or visit my website linked in the description)to learn how I can help you and your story flourish.

See you next time!

Delivering a Great Climax & Payoff: Story Savvy Self-Editing Episode 9

Tue, 04 Mar 2025 01:02:14 GMT

Climax & Payoff: After-episode thoughts, overview, and transcript...

Episode 23: Plot Twists might be a helpful companion topic to this one, as I talk about plot twists in the climax to some extent here but go into much more detail in that installment.
I also talk about closing out plot loops in my answer to the last question, and Episode 25: Subplots & Plot Threads , as well as Episode 26: Tying Up Loose Ends go into that topic much more deeply, if you want to check those out.

Happy editing!

Episode 9 Overview:

Delivering a Great Climax & Payoff

"How can I make sure that the global climax and resolution of my book both deliver great catharsis and land the payoff?"

Today, we discuss in depth how to write a great climax, how to structure a novel plot around it, and what are some good storytelling techniques in this ninth episode of the 52-Week Story Savvy series. H ost Rebecca Hartwell —founder of Hart Bound Editing [http://hartboundediting.com]—joins aspiring author Agnes Wolfe from Authors’ Alcove [ http://authorsalcove.com ] to explore how to strengthen your plot and break down the essential elements of a how to build suspense in a story as they discuss how to turn your good story into a great one.

This episode explores how to ensure your climax feels earned, how to nail satisfying your readers at the height of your story, and why the resolution is so vital to catharsis and payoff. Rebecca shares expert insights on avoiding flat climaxes, making emotional moments land, and ensuring your story is deeply satisfying an memorable.

This episode also covers:

The key elements of good buildup and payoff.
How to balance internal and external conflict for maximum impact.
Why protagonists must actively drive the story forward, and bring it to a close.
How theme, action, and transformation work together to create a meaningful ending.

Whether you’re brainstorming, outlining, or revising, these tips will help you shape a protagonist that feels real, relatable, and unforgettable.

Recommended Resources:
Story Grid – [ https://storygrid.com ]
Authors’ Alcove Membership Site - [ http://authorsalcove.com ]
Book Giveaway - [ http://authorsalcove.org ]

Have questions about character development? Drop them in the comments, and we’ll answer them in future episodes!

See you next week for episode 10: Character Arcs & Protagonist Transformation

Watch or listen to the full episode:

Episode 9 Transcript:

Delivering a Great Climax & Payoff

Rebecca Hartwell: Hello and welcome to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. This is episode 9 of the weekly Story Savvy series, where we tackle the 52 biggest self-editing topics and tips to help you make your good story great. We've covered a bunch of topics in this series so far, including last week's episode on the global crisis of a good story.

Today, we're going to go over the global climax and resolution. By the end of this episode, you will hopefully feel confident identifying the climax of your book and if it is or isn't working, and how you might improve it. Joining me to ask all of the questions that you've wanted to is my friend and co-host, Agnes Wolfe.

Agnes Wolfe: Hi! I am an aspiring fantasy author who hopes to release her middle-grade fantasy later this year and also the host and founder of Authors' Alcove. I'm here today to tackle the biggest event of a story and how it can deliver the best payoff. So, before we dive in, are there definitions of the climax and resolution to know beyond what I generally think they are?

Rebecca: I think they're pretty obvious, but I will take a whack at it anyway. The climax is the biggest event or action of the whole book where everything comes together and the entire story is either lost or won. The resolution is the end of the story, after the climax, where things are wrapped up and metabolized, both for the reader and for the characters in the story. It's also likely that the climax is the core event of your story, like we went over in episode 4, but that doesn't have to be the case.

Agnes: Should the way a reader feels about the pivotal conflict be different depending on the genre?

Rebecca: Yes! So glad you brought this up. We already touched on this a bit in the genre episodes, but each genre has its own emotional promise, and the climax is where you deliver that.

So, in romance, the emotion of the pivotal conflict or the climax should be love and/or that chest-aching feeling of possibly losing it or never finding it.

In action, like many epic fantasies, the payoff is adrenaline and grand triumph. That’s the emotional payoff of action.

Just to give more examples: In thriller and crime, the payoff is justice. In maturation plots, it’s clarity and personal growth. In performance plots, it’s that rush of competition and the literal win-or-loss payoff.

So, every genre has its own emotional note to hit as loud, and clear, and precisely as you can in the climax. Which is a big part of why we went over nailing down your genre early on in this series because it plays a role in so many different things, especially including this.

Hopefully, listeners will be able to translate my advice through this episode and series into whatever they have determined, through the research I recommended, their core emotional moment and promise is.

Agnes: So, what is the biggest mistake writers tend to make when they're creating that pivotal scene?

Rebecca: So, I did jot down a list of these because there are a few.

The number one mistake is robbing the protagonist of their primary agency. And this can include the issue of Deus Ex Machina, which, if you aren't familiar with that, it means the god in the machine. And it’s this story issue (it’s only an issue now, it was totally in fashion in ancient Greece) but it’s this idea where the characters build up these big problems, these BIG problems, and then some god-like power comes down and just fixes everything for them.

It takes away the need to be the one fixing it away from the protagonist, whether that's to a secondary character, fate, or luck, or a deity, or an overpowered character. Anything like that. So, the number one issue is taking the agency of owning the climax away from the protagonist.

Issue number two is having a climax that isn't the direct result of the book building up to that point. I've edited a book or two where the whole book was just building up—it had a really strong goal, and motivation, and momentum, and it was on this clear path—and then the climax had nothing to do with any of that. And that’s not going to pay off, because the payoff comes from the buildup. If the buildup and payoff aren’t connected, it’s not going to work.

Issue number three is a climax having anything in it that needs to be explained in depth to make sense in the midst of that action. This is a relatively minor pacing issue, but it's still worth noting.

So, if you're going to have to have, you know, a certain weapon, a certain mode of transport, or a certain spell used in the climax, explaining that to the reader and making sure that it’s set up well needs to happen before you get to the climax. It needs to happen in that middle build. If you're taking a moment in the climax to go, “Hey, this is how airships work,” that’s not ideal and you're taking away from the adrenaline, the fast-paced nature of a climax, to drop all of that momentum off and explain these details.

So related to that, but on a bigger scale, point number four is it’s an issue if there's a whole scene in the midst of your climax where the pacing completely drops away. Which, to be fair and transparent, I am guilty of in my own books. If I ever go back and edit my first series, that is one of the biggest things I will fix. And the issue here is that you want to have one climax.

You can do it better. Like I've mentioned in previous episodes, I’m not coaching bestsellers. I’m coaching people who are new to this and who are trying to figure it all out. In which case, learning to follow the rules before you learn how to break them absolutely stands. So, you only typically want one climax. And if you have what feels like a climax—because you're not going to be able to tell the readers, “Hey, this is what I’m calling the climax.” They’re not going to know that. It’s all about how it feel—so if you have what feels like one climax, and then the protagonist has a whole scene, or two, or five, where they have to go recover, and heal, and prepare for round two, and then you have a second climax, that’s not going to pay off. Because it doesn't have the right massive arc of just “this is the thing.” So that was point number four.

Point number five is: the last and most common issue I see in climaxes is that the protagonist hasn’t earned it. This kind of connects to last week's topic of the crisis. Of; they haven’t had a change moment. They haven’t had something that they really put in effort for or paid a price for that allows them to earn winning the climax.

So, in romance, this is almost always going to be a matter of overcoming the internal fatal flaw, which pushed the lovers apart in the midpoint breakup. But in general action plots, that can be a little harder to understand subconsciously. And including most of fantasy, it could be a wide range of different things. But there has to be some sense of earning it.

A few examples might be:

The protagonist has a realization about who their real friends are.
Or they have a shift in their goal, from being a selfish goal to being a selfless goal.
Or the acquisition of a magical item that they had to prove themselves worthy of, like Excalibur.
Or perhaps they simply needed to go through the trials and tribulations of learning how to use a new magical power.

There has to be some kind of earning the climax. But if you're in a genre that has multiple options for what that might be, feel free to play with any of them. You just need to hit the requirement of “it’s been earned.”

So the last point I want to make on this is that if it’s embedded in the whole story, if, again, it’s part of that buildup that’s going to eventually pay off, it is going to work so much better than if it comes as this one little moment of, “Oh, I found the right sword,” right before the climax.

The more you can embed that change, from a starting point to their crisis, to them earning whatever they need to have to triumph in the climax (or get the lover back, or whatever), the more you can embed that the better.

Agnes: So, I can definitely see why you chose to do the protagonist's pivotal choice before you did the climax because, in order for it to pay off, we have to know what the choice is. And she has to or he has to have made that choice.

So how do we—so I know in my own books, my next couple, I'm going to show some character growth in some of my more minor characters. And we've kind of talked about this a little bit in the last episode. But how do we know if our protagonist is being overshadowed by other characters?

Rebecca: I can give you an exercise here to look at in your own work to figure out the answer to that question.

So, to start out, make a list of the one to seven biggest moments, and precise, exact moments, that make the climax go the way it does. And these can be action or revelation. So, if those tiny moments happened in a different way, the climax would have a different ending, or it would be a very different shape. And you want to narrow in on where those moments are.

So, once you have that list, ask yourself a couple of questions and write down the answer next to those listed moments. The first is: who does these actions? Who is actually the person doing them? Or, if it's a revelation, who learns the revelation? So, if the point is that the protagonist needs this information, then they have to be the receiver. If the point of the revelation is that the whole world learns about it, then they have to be the person who broadcasts that.

So, once you have the moments and then the character name that owns each of those moments, make sure that your answers are honest. And it's not a, you know, chain of cause-and-effect answer. Only the hands-on, singular avatar who actually does that pivotal moment. So, your protagonist—and this is how you answer the question that you asked—your protagonist should own all or most of those pivotal moments. It should be their name down this entire list. But you have to be honest. You can't just put their name there because you think it's supposed to be there.

If you're writing dual POV, which is very common in the fantasy romance space that I do most of my work in, it is totally fine to have a mix of both protagonists' names in this list. But be aware that the stronger of the two, story-wise, which is often the female main character—again, in my niche—has slightly more. Because whoever has the most agency in the climax is going to be remembered by the reader as the primary protagonist from any given book.

So, if you're writing multi-POV fantasy, which I know that you are, just make sure that your protagonist owns, you know, so… Multi-POV can mean different things. So, if you have, let's say, multiple protagonists that you really want to have as more or less equals, and it's more than two, make sure that one of your protagonists, and not secondary characters, own all of those moments. And again, understand that whoever owns the most is going to be remembered as THE protagonist over the other options.

And just as a point of interest, this is the primary reason behind the fan argument (that I personally love) that Samwise Gamgee is actually the protagonist of Lord of the Rings and not Frodo. Because when it comes to throwing the ring in the volcano, he’s the one who actually does it.

Agnes: I think that's a dangerous thing for us newbies to be doing.

Rebecca: Yes.

Agnes: That is a very valid point. As you were talking, though, I was brainstorming about one of my later books. And it kind of gave me a moment where I'm like, “Oh, I know what's going to happen!” You know, because I haven't fleshed out my last book in the series. And while you were talking, I'm like, “Hmm, I now know how this is going to happen.” But yes, I do like that Lord of the Rings theory there. So how can we tell—switching back to the questions—how can we tell if there was enough character growth in our character from before the pivotal conflict and after?

Rebecca: So first of all, we'll go into this in-depth next week, specifically on this topic.

But in the context of the climax and resolution, if you took your character as they exist in chapter one, and picked them up, skipping all of the middle bits, and dropped them into the climax, would they still be able to win? Yes or no? So, would they tackle the climax in the same way? If the answer is “Oh, gods no!” then you're all set. You have character change. They have grown, they have learned new skills, whatever is needed there. If dropping chapter one them into the climax would just snuff them out, then you don't have to worry about this any further. If the answer is “Yes, or probably they'd be fine,” then you either have an issue with the climax not testing them enough—so, not doing enough to force your protagonist to prove that they have changed—or the character not having enough change. And you have to make that call or get outside feedback on it.

Agnes: So how do I know if my climax is big enough?

Rebecca: Tricky question. And this is going to be heavily dependent on your genre.

You need to know how big is expected in your genre, and your subgenre, and your subgenre's niche, and all of those layers. But like we talked about with the global crisis, the biggest test of strength for the global climax is: how much does it matter?

If you are writing romance, how pivotal to the lives of those two lovers is them getting back together for good? Are they going to have a pretty similar life? Are they going to find someone else? Or are they going to be heartbroken and devastated for the rest of their existence?

In action, how much is at stake for the protagonist? That person? Their world? Or the groups of people that they are responsible for or affecting in the general scheme of things?

It's okay to have small stakes, just to be clear, if that's the kind of story that you're writing, like a lot of literary fiction is. But they still have to matter a lot to the protagonist. And I think that talking about the small stakes can help illuminate what that can look like at a bigger scale.

So, for example, winning a spelling bee, in the grand scheme of a world with war and starvation and all these things, is incredibly low stakes. But if the protagonist is a child whose whole life revolves around really harsh, demanding parents who push them to the extremes, only care about grades, and are constantly hounding them to succeed, and this one spelling bee is the singular event that will get that child the grade they need to get into their dream school, which is then the first step into their dream life and their parents’ love and approval, then it matters enough to that person and that story that you’re telling, and is definitely big enough for a climax.

So, the same event, a spelling bee, can mean nothing to someone who’s into sports and has parents who are like, “Yeah, whatever you want to do.” But it can be everything to a different character. And so you have to make that call for your story and your protagonist; whether or not it’s big enough for them and that story.

So, the other way to look at this topic, just kind of from the other side of things, is the same question you need to ask with a global crisis, only with a longer timescale. So, if the protagonist loses or wins in the climax, how different are the two outcomes? If their life and the world are going to be pretty much exactly the same going forward, then whether or not they win or lose doesn’t really matter, and you need to beef that up. You need to add to the stakes and how different those two outcomes more different. If losing the climax would be a much worse path forward than winning in the climax, you’re doing fine. You don’t need to worry about this further.

Agnes: So how do we know if we have given enough clues throughout our novel, so it doesn’t seem like the climax comes out of nowhere? And can we give too many clues?

Rebecca: This is really tricky. And I feel like I need to open with a bit of a caveat, which is: Almost all of the first-time authors that I edit for use a withholding of information to try to get the reader invested in finding those answers. And it doesn’t work that way that well, unless you’ve really figured out how. And I am absolutely guilty of this in my first novel. That was one of the most valuable pieces of feedback I got. So, when you’re talking about clues, I think that implies a sense of wanting to withhold information from the reader. And I recommend against that.

I recommend providing details about what’s coming in the future so that readers can be anxious about how it will turn out. So rather than withholding information about what the climax is going to be, give them that information. Tell them, “Oh, it’s going to be a dancing contest,” so that they, through the protagonist, can just be invested through that sense of: “Are they going to win or not? What’s at stake? Are they going to get their parents’ admiration? Are they going to lose their crush?” Whatever’s at stake there.

So that’s the caveat. I generally recommend against withholding information unless you’re actually writing mysteries, whodunits, and that kind of stuff.

So, to actually answer your question of: how do you leave clues? What’s too little? What’s too many? First of all, this can be very hard to tell on our own. This is absolutely something to prioritize when getting outside feedback, whether that’s from editors, critique partners, beta readers, or whatever you happen to have access to.

Basically, the whole story should be inevitably building up to the climax, like we talked about earlier of: the buildup is the payoff. The two have to be intrinsically connected for it to really, really work. But there should be a surprising twist to it. That is absolutely part of the payoff. And I want to make it clear that I’m not recommending away from that. There should be—what’s the term that Story Grid uses? It’s something like “surprising but inevitable conclusion.”

So, for example, in a murder mystery, where clues and mystery are the name of the genre, the climax is definitely going to be the reveal of the murderer. If it’s not, it’s not a murder mystery. It’s not Agatha Christie. It’s not Poirot. It’s not whatever it is you’re trying to create or emulate. But who that murderer is should absolutely be a twist. If by chapter three you’re like, “Oh, well, I watched Sam do the murder, it’s going to be Sam,” then you’re not even going to read the rest of the book. So, the surprising part is who, but the inevitable part is the reveal.

And you can hopefully abstract that onto just about any genre. The thing with that twist is, you want it to be understandable, if not obvious, in retrospect. So, once it’s been revealed, you need to allow the reader to look back at the rest of the book and go, “Oh, yes, I see how that was all being built up.” And I’ve heard of—thankfully not personally read—mysteries or thrillers where the murderer had zero clues pointing to them. And there was no way to look back and go, “Oh, I see how the detective put this together.” And those books aren’t good for that reason.

So, to bring this into a genre that I work on a little bit more, in romance, obviously (if it’s a good romance) the climax the book is building up to is a climax where the lovers come back together better than they were before. More strong in their love and their relationship than they were before. Otherwise, the payoff won’t be there for the happily ever after. But it’s even better than the basic meeting of that requirement if there is interesting or unexpected aspect to that then there otherwise could be if you’re just hitting the beats.

So, to check your own work, I suggest working backwards from your climax. And remembering two pieces of advice. The first being “show, don’t tell,” (it applies here), and remembering the rule of three as well. And if you’re not familiar with that, it’s just this idea that in (particularly western) storytelling tradition, everything comes in threes. There’s the three little Piggies, and the three bears that Goldilocks runs into. Lots of story structure is based around threes.

So, when you’re looking at your own work, what is the inevitable part of your climax? And you do have at least three memorable and important moments in the buildup to it where you clearly point to that climax looming out in the future?

Then looking at the other aspect of that, what is the surprising twist of your climax if you have one? If you don’t and you want one, just brainstorm that, see what might fit. And then taking that and working backwards, where are at least three major clues that you’ve left leading up to the reveal, which the protagonist can understand once it’s revealed? So, it’s fine if the protagonist doesn’t understand the clues for what they are, leading up. But again, they should be decipherable or fit together like puzzle pieces once the reveal happens and the protagonist (and the reader) are fitting all of those things together.

So, unless you are writing actual murder mysteries, like I said earlier, I recommend you lean towards less subtle because, you know. I try to not make this point as often as I’m tempted to, but average is average, and half of your readers are going to be below average in intelligence. And they need to be able to pick up on the clues, too. Especially if you’re writing a genre that isn’t market towards people who like the brain teasers, like mysteries are. Especially as a new writer, it’s just hard to get right. So it’s far more likely, like I said earlier, that you’ll hook the reader if you give them the information that they need to feel anxiety or excitement about what’s coming up in the future.

Agnes: So, going off of that, how do we know if their global crisis—going back to what we talked about last week—worked out for them? And does it have to?

Rebecca: Okay, I think I understand the question. Basically, if they win in the climax, however that looks for your story and your genre, then it worked out for them, and you have a prescriptive story. All set there. If they lost in the climax, then it didn’t work out for them, and you have a cautionary story. That’s the equation there.

Now, that win-loss should be clear in the heat of the climax. Right at that most pivotal, pinnacle moment of the climax of the story. But using the fallout to really show whether they won or lost is also what that resolution is vitally for; showing the more internal or widely affecting win-loss of the climax.

Agnes: So, does it have to be totally one or the other, win or loss? Because I kind of feel like with mine, there’s a big win, but there’s also a loss.

Rebecca: That’s actually ideal, and I’m really glad you brought this up. Part of the resolution is to show if there’s a mix.

There does need to be at least a small moment of very clear, very black-and-white, win or loss in that pinnacle moment. But adding in some complications, some mix of win and loss in the later part of the climax and the resolution, is absolutely a great idea. I meant to bring that up earlier. I'm glad you did.

So, in general genre fiction, um, the reader subconsciously knows whether it's prescriptive or cautionary based on that win-loss. But having a mix is going to help with your catharsis specifically. Because nothing in real life is very often black and white, win or loss, good or bad.

I often describe that ideal balance as either a win with a noticeable cost (so the cost would be the downside and loss to offset that), or a loss with a noticeable silver lining (which would then be the positive).

If you want to go deep into this aspect of payoff and catharsis, then it can be extra satisfying to make sure that the protagonist—again, building up through the whole book—has one biggest want and one biggest need, and the two things are mostly or entirely separate. So that in the climax and resolution, you can win one of them and lose the other, and get that balance by doing that.

Agnes: So, I know we need to wrap up, but I did want to ask one last question. After the pivotal conflict, how do we know the resolution of that is satisfying to our readers?

Rebecca: Having a bittersweet mix, like we were just talking about, is a great starting point.

However, showing how those events, those big, big, big events of the climax, are metabolized or will be metabolized over time by the protagonist and/or their world (whether that's just their internal self, their family, their country, whatever it is) is so, so, so vital to the resolution.

That is what the resolution is for, is showing that metabolization.

Some other important considerations are: do you wrap up all of the open plot loops you intended to? If you intend to leave a couple open, that's fine, but make sure you're not totally forgetting about any of them. Do you bring the adrenaline of that climax back down? And there should be adrenaline no matter what your stakes are. Do you bring that adrenaline back down so that the reader can properly ingest the catharsis that you delivered to them? Do you show more layers of how the protagonist’s global crisis (which we talked about in last week's episode) and the climax action that they took later on were overall the right choices or the wrong choice? Which we touched on in the answer to your last question. And then lastly, basically, just: if your resolution is serving those purposes that I just listed succinctly—so, basically not with a bunch of fluff making it, you know, drag on—then your resolution is solid, and you're good.

Agnes: Well, thank you so much for answering all my questions. I really do appreciate just this opportunity to ask you. I really appreciate it.

Rebecca: You are quite welcome. Next week, like I mentioned in last week’s episode, we will get into the core character change arc that backs up these major moments in more depth. We’ll really get into what that needs to look like, and how to brainstorm ideas, and fix issues.

For now, I would really like to thank everyone who has followed along with us in this series. You can help us out by liking and subscribing to The Hart Bound Editing Podcast and the Author’s Alcove podcast where you can find lots more content for fantasy authors and readers beyond this joint series.

Agnes: I can’t wait to chat with you next week. See you then.

Rebecca : Thank you so much for listening to the Hart Bound Editing Podcast. I look forward to bringing you more content to help you make your good story great so it can change lives and change your world. Follow along to hear more or visit my website, linked in the description, to learn how I can help you and your story to flourish.

See you next time!